POLITICAL THREAD

[Big_Blue79]

But you got to remember that it's actually more because these illegals reproduce like freaking rabbits. Now we are paying for their kids and the adults.

A Florida state House subcommittee heard testimony on Monday that the “white culture” would be destroyed if white women were “outside the home not having babies” while other ethnicities had a higher birthrate.

...

“We see the destruction we’re bringing upon ourself as a nation,” Paul opined. “The Muslims, they don’t kill the babies.”

Paul noted that “white people” did not “live on an Island,” and that “the Mexicans” would propagate faster because they did not practice abortions.

“Their race is through the breeding of having families, children,” he explained. “And what happens is once you see the condition we’re in, we’re destroying ourselves and destroying our families, we’ve accepted something in this country that the Creator — that we’re going to pay for.”

“You don’t see us as a culture, as a white culture, pushing this agenda of abortion, women outside the home not having babies, everybody getting more and more and more?” Paul asked the lawmakers. “We’re a sick nation and if we don’t repent then the people leading our government, you are legislating morality by the laws you pass.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/fl-...women-are-outside-the-home-not-having-babies/

 

[Big_Blue79]

Love this line of attack, lets delve into it.

studies have shown that abortion rates are declining, and one possible reason is that young people have grown up seeing ultrasound pictures of babies in wombs starting at only a couple months. they know what it is, and what it is from day 1. trying to define what is inside a woman's belly as not being a human, or that it isnt but then somehow magically turns into one after 6 months (or 9 if you are Hillary or DWS) is almost being a.....science denier?

A fun thing, turning around Orwellian doublespeak language

It wasn't a line of attack, it was a genuine question. But thanks for assuming. It's really easy to have genuine conversations with people like you in the room policing and assigning everyone their roles. I guess I'll take on the role of shrill baby killer #1, since you've just assigned me. Do I get a name tag or do I make my own? Do I get a costume from "1984" as well? TIA.

Your point is that people "know what it is, and what it is from day 1" = science?

And let's use precise words because words have meaning. I said what is your definition of a person. I didn't say human, I said person, and for good reason. For instance, I would consider the dead skin that makes up ~ 50% of my pillow weight (I need new pillows) to be human. I don't consider it a person. Maybe you're sloppy with language (although I don't assume), but that's my position. So, please, person.

So I ask you as well - what is your definition of person? GENUINE QUESTION, THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR NOT BEING AN ASSHAT!

 

[fuzz77]

Love this line of attack, lets delve into it.

studies have shown that abortion rates are declining, and one possible reason is that young people have grown up seeing ultrasound pictures of babies in wombs starting at only a couple months. they know what it is, and what it is from day 1. trying to define what is inside a woman's belly as not being a human, or that it isnt but then somehow magically turns into one after 6 months (or 9 if you are Hillary or DWS) is almost being a.....science denier?

A fun thing, turning around Orwellian doublespeak language

You don't think better access to birth control, better education and better use of birth control has had any effect on those numbers?
Or morning after pills... something that the pro-life movement has opposed.

As many as 11% of U.S. women ages 15-44 who have ever had sexual intercourse have used a "morning after" pill at least once, according to the first federal report on emergency contraception, out Thursday.
That's 5.8 million women -- and half say they used it because they feared their birth control method may have failed. The rest say they had unprotected sex.

 

[Catfan in Tn.]

More thinned skinned: President Obama or Donald Trump?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Abortion is always the toughest issue for me. Overall, its probably a net benefit since society doesn't have to care for all these unwanted children. On the other hand, innocent children are being murdered. Theyre supported by, generally, the same sort of person who thinks its outrageous to kill a tree, criminal, or animal; which of course is the ultimate contradiction. This of course is rationalized by saying the fetus isn't really alive, or human; so its ok. Its a rationalization, because most people couldn't live with the thought of what theyre actually doing - killing an unborn child.

More, this is really the penultimate divide between liberals and conservatives. Its the defining divide between those who believe in personal responsibility, and those who don't. Those who think the individual themelves should deal with the consequences of their actions, and those who don't.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

More thinned skinned: President Obama or Donald Trump?

Obama easily. Anyone who opposes him feels the wrath of federal government at his direction. Trump has an ego for sure, but hes also an exceptionally good sport when it comes to people making fun of him.

 

[KingOfBBN]

Abortion is always the toughest issue for me. Overall, its probably a net benefit since society doesn't have to care for all these unwanted children. On the other hand, innocent children are being murdered. Theyre supported by, generally, the same sort of person who thinks its outrageous to kill a tree, criminal, or animal; which of course is the ultimate contradiction. This of course is rationalized by saying the fetus isn't really alive, or human; so its ok. Its a rationalization, because most people couldn't live with the thought of what theyre actually doing - killing an unborn child.

More, this is really the penultimate divide between liberals and conservatives. Its the defining divide between those who believe in personal responsibility, and those who don't. Those who think the individual themelves should deal with the consequences of their actions, and those who don't.

You knocked it out of the park with that one. Now expect the liberal brigade to be here shortly to stutter and try to pick themselves off the floor.

 

[KingOfBBN]

More thinned skinned: President Obama or Donald Trump?

Obama. Trump hasn't used the IRS and other government organizations to try and ruin those who go against him. You also don't get called a racist every time you speak ill of Trump.

 

[fuzz77]

Abortion is always the toughest issue for me. Overall, its probably a net benefit since society doesn't have to care for all these unwanted children. On the other hand, innocent children are being murdered. Theyre supported by, generally, the same sort of person who thinks its outrageous to kill a tree, criminal, or animal; which of course is the ultimate contradiction. This of course is rationalized by saying the fetus isn't really alive, or human; so its ok. Its a rationalization, because most people couldn't live with the thought of what theyre actually doing - killing an unborn child.

More, this is really the penultimate divide between liberals and conservatives. Its the defining divide between those who believe in personal responsibility, and those who don't. Those who think the individual themelves should deal with the consequences of their actions, and those who don't.

I know many liberals who are pro-life and conservatives that are pro-choice.
The Catholic Church and Judaism are both quite sympathetic to most liberal causes but also pro-life.

You cannot legislate responsibility. You can try but you will fail.

Again, many in the pro-life movement are concerned about the well-being of the fetus, but not the child. They rationalize the child is someone else's responsibility so they can feel better about the child that needlessly suffers in a land of abundance.

You may be personally responsible for you and your family. I am personally responsible for me and my family. But a child doesn't get to choose its parents and does not have the ability to be responsible for themselves.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I know many liberals who are pro-life and conservatives that are pro-choice.
The Catholic Church and Judaism are both quite sympathetic to most liberal causes but also pro-life.

You cannot legislate responsibility. You can try but you will fail.

Again, many in the pro-life movement are concerned about the well-being of the fetus, but not the child. They rationalize the child is someone else's responsibility so they can feel better about the child that needlessly suffers in a land of abundance.

You may be personally responsible for you and your family. I am personally responsible for me and my family. But a child doesn't get to choose its parents and does not have the ability to be responsible for themselves.

I said generally. There are exceptions to everything.

True. But you can stop promoting irresponsibility through legislation. There are no consequences. "Don't want to work? That's ok - heres free everything. Don't want to worry about birth control? Or taking care of a child? That's ok - we'll just help you kill it. I know, it sounds awful. But don't worry.....its not a human yet. Its just a zygote. Not even viable. So its really not wrong."

Youre right. A child doesn't get to choose. That's the problem with abortion. The womans rights are somehow paramount to the childs; and the fathers for that matter. It just doesn't logically fit, legally, morally, or ethically. As I said before, the functional argument is the only viable, logical argument to be made for abortion; and its a strong one.

 

[P19978]

Love this line of attack, lets delve into it.

studies have shown that abortion rates are declining, and one possible reason is that young people have grown up seeing ultrasound pictures of babies in wombs starting at only a couple months. they know what it is, and what it is from day 1. trying to define what is inside a woman's belly as not being a human, or that it isnt but then somehow magically turns into one after 6 months (or 9 if you are Hillary or DWS) is almost being a.....science denier?

A fun thing, turning around Orwellian doublespeak language

As someone else said "Find one cell of life on another planet and the libs jump for joy; many cells in a woman's body? Not life".

 

[wkycatfan]

If you were truly worried about government protecting innocent life then you should have no problem with the government providing people with the essentials of life...food, shelter and clothing. And what about healthcare? education? Aren't they essential?

Of course, now you're getting into the what the role of government should be. That debate has been going on since the birth of the country for the most part.

 

[fuzz77]

I said generally. There are exceptions to everything.

True. But you can stop promoting irresponsibility through legislation. There are no consequences. "Don't want to work? That's ok - heres free everything. Don't want to worry about birth control? Or taking care of a child? That's ok - we'll just help you kill it. I know, it sounds awful. But don't worry.....its not a human yet. Its just a zygote. Not even viable. So its really not wrong."

Youre right. A child doesn't get to choose. That's the problem with abortion. The womans rights are somehow paramount to the childs; and the fathers for that matter. It just doesn't logically fit, legally, morally, or ethically. As I said before, the functional argument is the only viable, logical argument to be made for abortion; and its a strong one.

Those are pretty large exceptions.

You want to frame social programs as "promoting irresponsibility"...I frame them as helping those who cannot help themselves. You know...being my brother's keeper. Yes, there are exceptions, people who take advantage of those willing to help. So, you turn your back on the vast majority because of the few?

As for the father rights vs the woman's. The father doesn't have the burden of carrying the child. So in a vote of 1-1 with the "child" abstaining there has to be a tie breaker.
You own any stock? Unless you own > 50% of a company's stock you don't really get much of a vote in what the company does...do you?

Lastly, how do you know that the child would always choose life at the time in the mother's life when she does not feel fit/able to care for it? Doesn't one good rhetorical question deserve another? Perhaps the child's soul feels that it would be better to leave it's present body and wait for the next.

 

[fuzz77]

Of course, now you're getting into the what the role of government should be. That debate has been going on since the birth of the country for the most part.

Don't the two go hand in hand? Should the government be telling women that they must continue a pregnancy that they might not want?

Seems you have no problem with government enforcing ideas with which you agree but opposed it enforcing ideas with which you don't agree.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Those are pretty large exceptions.

You want to frame social programs as "promoting irresponsibility"...I frame them as helping those who cannot help themselves. You know...being my brother's keeper. Yes, there are exceptions, people who take advantage of those willing to help. So, you turn your back on the vast majority because of the few?

As for the father rights vs the woman's. The father doesn't have the burden of carrying the child. So in a vote of 1-1 with the "child" abstaining there has to be a tie breaker.
You own any stock? Unless you own > 50% of a company's stock you don't really get much of a vote in what the company does...do you?

Lastly, how do you know that the child would always choose life at the time in the mother's life when she does not feel fit/able to care for it? Doesn't one good rhetorical question deserve another? Perhaps the child's soul feels that it would be better to leave it's present body and wait for the next.

They do promote irresponsibility. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with a safety net, or programs that help those who are truly disabled. The problem is with the handouts. Handouts remove any sense of necessity from a large part of the population. Without the sense of necessity, the individual never learns how to provide for themselves. They essentially become a ward of society. Failure and struggle is part of life. Going through it makes one stronger. Handouts remove that too. So if you think its ok for the government to have millions and millions of voluntary wards, then you have no problem with it. This is exactly why I said the abortion debate is an ultimate highlight of the difference between liberals and conservatives.

"Oh well when you don't consider the fact that youre killing a child, this is an easy situation" is basically your argument. While true, its just nor representative of the situation. The child shouldn't be forgotten in the equation. You can act like theyre not dying all you want, but they are. One person's right to choose, no matter the gender, should never be paramount to another's right to live. As for dad, that child is 1/2 his. Should the child be born, he's legally responsible for child support. So if he has legal obligations to the child, then he shouldn't just be ignored all other times. A father isn't just an ATM. Either way, the childs right to live is morally superior.

How do I know they would always choose life? I don't. But they should get the choice, nonetheless.

 

[wkycatfan]

Don't the two go hand in hand? Should the government be telling women that they must continue a pregnancy that they might not want?

Seems you have no problem with government enforcing ideas with which you agree but opposed it enforcing ideas with which you don't agree.

Defending innocent life is a pretty basic role of any legit government IMO. No, I don't agree. The more basic needs that a government starts providing (via tax dollars) to citizens, also lessens your freedoms. It's a trade off, and a long standing debate in this country. That's the rub.

 

[KyFaninNC]

And what about healthcare? education? Aren't they essential?

No, they are not essential. Typical Liberal mindset, individuals are too stupid to take care of themselves. People have existed since apes turned into human without doctors, or schools. Abortion is used by Liberals to stir up the idiotic base of the republican party. Whine,cry and scream all you want, abortion is law, and it won't be made illegal any time soon, if ever. To keep whining about abortion just assures Liberalism stays in power. Liberals are all for killing babies, but don't want to kill people that have killed people, so they are idiotic as well.

Nothing will get settled about abortion, so just drop it, focus on things that can be changed.

 

[P19978]

"The child shouldn't be forgotten in the equation. You can act like theyre not dying all you want, but they are.

I'll add to this:

Abortion at its root is simply murder. Calling it anything else is just an exercise in semantics.

 

[jamo0001]

Have we solved the abortion debate yet?

 

[Big_Blue79]

Have we solved the abortion debate yet?

Not for 20 weeks.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

No, they are not essential. Typical Liberal mindset, individuals are too stupid to take care of themselves. People have existed since apes turned into human without doctors, or schools. Abortion is used by Liberals to stir up the idiotic base of the republican party. Whine,cry and scream all you want, abortion is law, and it won't be made illegal any time soon, if ever. To keep whining about abortion just assures Liberalism stays in power. Liberals are all for killing babies, but don't want to kill people that have killed people, so they are idiotic as well.

Nothing will get settled about abortion, so just drop it, focus on things that can be changed.

This is true for the most part. Social issues gave us two terms of Obama. Itll give us another Dem president if the GOP doesnt get smart and avoid them altogether.

I also agree the law is settled and unlikely to change anytime soon.

I disagree though that discussion is useless. Thoughtful discussion is always useful to some extent.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Those who think the individual themelves should deal with the consequences of their actions, and those who don't.

Choosing abortion is certainly dealing with the consequences of ones actions, that choice just contradicts the strict religious beliefs of Islam and Christianity that a fertilized zygote or embryo equates to a viable human child.

 

[Willy4UK]

I'll add to this:

Abortion at its root is simply murder. Calling it anything else is just an exercise in semantics.

I don't agree. Just because you call it murder, doesn't mean it's murder.

 

[Willy4UK]

I call it a medical procedure

 

[krazykats]

You call it what you want, we need more of it. I guess maybe more birth control would slow down abortions, but so would getting fixed if your poor.

I just don't see the issue!

 

[WettCat]

I call it a medical procedure

So, if a Cannibal killed you and ate you, is that simply called lunch? (And makes it acceptable because the Cannibal has a different belief system as you?)

 

[Willy4UK]

I agree Krazy, I'd be for partial sterilization until the adult is responsible enough to provide for the kid

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

As someone else said "Find one cell of life on another planet and the libs jump for joy; many cells in a woman's body? Not life".

Statements like this is one of the many reasons the religious right is losing in this debate.

 

[Big_Blue79]

I guess maybe more birth control would slow down abortions

Yup. People may prefer that folks wait until marriage, but the unavoidable reality that is and has always been true is that people be screwing. Too bad we don't fund successful programs that actually reduce pregnancies at risk of abortion. I can get a tax break for my mortgage interest, or a child tax credit, but heck no government money cannot be spent on an outcome that all sides should welcome?

 

[Willy4UK]

So, if a Cannibal killed you and ate you, is that simply called lunch? (And makes it acceptable because the Cannibal has a different belief system as you?)

Of course it's murder. Quite different if it's a person and not a gooey entanglement of fetal blob, which isn't a person

 

[wkycatfan]

I call it a medical procedure

You make it sound like an appendicitis

Of course it's murder. Quite different if it's a person and not a gooey entanglement of fetal blob, which isn't a person

I certainly think you are more than a gooey entanglement of fetal blob now.......even though you once were.

 

[WettCat]

And therein lies the issue----which will not be mutually resolved and makes this topic go in never-ending circles: at what point is it life? Someone could easily look at me at call me an entangled gooey blob, and I am. It's just that I'd be a feast for 4 instead of just lunch.

Peace.

 

[jamo0001]

I agree Krazy, I'd be for partial sterilization until the adult is responsible enough to provide for the kid

Colorado was doing that. It was working. Teen pregnancy plummeted. And the republican legislature gutted the program.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

You make it sound like an appendicitis



I certainly think you are more than a gooey entanglement of fetal blob now.......even though you once were.

Just wondering what you think happens to those gooey entanglement blobs when the mother miscarries? They go on to be with the lort?

 

[fuzz77]

Choosing abortion is certainly dealing with the consequences of ones actions, that choice just contradicts the strict religious beliefs of Islam and Christianity that a fertilized zygote or embryo equates to a viable human child.

Are you claiming that Presbyterians, Methodist, United Church of Christ, Episcopal, Lutheran just to name a few...aren't Christians?
They are all denominations of Christianity that support a woman's right to choose.

I also challenge you to show where any Christian faith demands that its beliefs be followed by those who may believe otherwise?
If I am Presbyterian, which I am, and my faith and my church tells me that I should respect a woman's right to choose...who are you to tell me or other faiths that hold the same position otherwise?

 

[Bill Cosby]

Can we abort this thread? Jesus Christ.

 

[Bill Cosby]

And while we're at it, count me as pro abortion.

Darfur, Koni, what Mary down the street does to her unborn child - all things I just don't care about.

The less worthless assholes my tax dollars support, the better. In fact, if you aren't viable on your own outside the womb, and no one wants to support you (without using my tax money), I really don't care if you're aborted. You should at least lose your right to participate in the governing process of this country.

 

[Willy4UK]

Bill C summed it up nicely.

I'm done with this debate. It's a financial burden on tax payers and I'll leave it at that.

 

[jamo0001]

Latest NH poll out today:
27 trump
12 Cruz
12 Kasich
11 Jeb
10 Rubio

 

[Willy4UK]

Latest NH poll out today:
27 trump
12 Cruz
12 Kasich
11 Jeb!
10 Rubio

FTFY