There will be sanctions but nobody expects them to be more than pretend sanctions.
Matt Jones repeats the lie, UNC didn't break any rules.
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Has McCants testified to NCAA that he was encouraged by admin to take these classes?? If so, this would be in line with what has been proven to be true with the women BBall team - except as a verbal statement as opposed to a written correspondence.
I think it's obvious that the NCAA tourney selection process and committee is bias and money driven. If that constitutes being corruption then I would agree but I think you're wrong about the officiating aspect being corrupt as far as the officials go anyway. The selection and seeding process has become a joke in recent years and it's so obvious that personal feelings come into play with the committee. I don't ever remember saying this when C.M. Newton was head of the selection committee. While I can't recall specifics from his tenure as chairman, I just don't remember ever having these feelings while he was at the helm. He seemed to be far more logical with entire process. It has gotten so out of hand that something needs to be done. I doubt anything does get done but every year the criteria changes for what the committee is looking for with the teams. One year its strength of schedule, then it's quality wins, the next year it's regular season championships, then this year it's bad losses. It's always changing and while I understand that you can not just use a computer, there needs to be some kind of system with criteria rankings. Whether it's an all equal criteria or whether some criteria means more than others, there just needs to be a system in place so that coaches and players know what the committee is looking for from each team.
As far as the officiating, that just comes down to politics and not getting the best officials out there. In all my years in officiating, from high school to college, I have never heard or seen a single incident of corruption within the officials. It has happened once in the NBA with Tim Donaghy but I don't think that will ever happen in the NBA again. They monitor it very closely. I do acknowledge that there is an issue with the officiating in the college game and something needs to be addressed but I don't think it's corruption with the officials. It's simply an issue of getting the best officials instead of the buddy system that's gets a lot of guys hired over officials who are qualified and better officials. So, it's just a case of some officials at the D1 level are just bad officials. Lol. A lot of them need to be humbled because of their ego which is also a concern. With all this said, there are a lot of issues that should be addressed in the college game.
It doesn't matter if they can prove a direct link to coaches . How does a university not notice this issue for decades , how do multiple coaches not notice this clustering ? We all know the answer is they knew exactly what was going on but for the NCAAs sake it's easy to prove UNC should have known . The NCAA has penalized many schools for crimes the NCAA couldn't prove the school knew but summoned they should have known . They use assumptions and leaps of faith to prove some schools complicity , while they claim to need dna testing for the schools they falsely want propped up as model institutions for their branding campaign .
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A former NCAA investigator admitted special committees were formed to target certain schools , I think it's safe to say they have their corrupted hand in every aspect .
That is what I have been saying, if the ncaa don't do anything to North Carolina for cheating to keep Basketball & Football players eligible.
If you must live in that corrupt shithole, don't raise any kids there. Growing up around UNC*** kids does not make a decent member of society.
I hear the argument and I too understand the argument. However, it is just an angle and it is not an angle that I would buy into if I was the one making the judgement. Over on the football board there is a discussion about Loyd Tubman being kicked out of school by UK even though he was not indicted by the court due to lack of evidence. The reason this happened is because UK does not have to abide by the same standards of proof that a criminal court does. The same is true with the NCAA. They can choose their standard and as long as they are consistent, there is not much anybody can do about it. That is the thing, they are not being consistent. They have punished other schools over the years for doing the same type things but there has never been a school caught in the past that has done this much for such a long period of time. Any attorney will try to point out how his case is different from those that set precedent but this case is apples to apples with many of the cases in the past.
It goes to INTENT. There is more than enough here to make the case that the classes were created with the intent of fast tracking athletes though a program that would allow them to remain eligible when they otherwise wouldn't have been eligible had they taken the typical curriculum that a student at UNC would normally take.
When a very small percentage of the general population takes these made up classes and yet nearly all of the basketball team takes these made up classes, it is obvious that someone is steering the basketball players toward these classes. Maybe not a coach, maybe nobody in the athletic department but it is somebody who is affiliated with the UNC basketball team. I said it is obvious but it doesn't even have to be obvious to punish. It only needs to be likely. The known facts are way beyond likely.
Either the classes are legit or they are not. If the women's team is being punished for taking the classes then they obviously are not legit. If they are not legit and the men's team also took them, there needs to be a similar punishment or we are looking at classic case of discrimination against a protected class. That is the kind of thing that any organization needs to avoid.
At the end of the day, UNC cheated, the NCAA knows they cheated and the NCAA has the jurisdiction to levy a punishment.
It goes to INTENT. There is more than enough here to make the case that the classes were created with the intent of fast tracking athletes though a program that would allow them to remain eligible when they otherwise wouldn't have been eligible had they taken the typical curriculum that a student at UNC would normally take.
When a very small percentage of the general population takes these made up classes and yet nearly all of the basketball team takes these made up classes, it is obvious that someone is steering the basketball players toward these classes. Maybe not a coach, maybe nobody in the athletic department but it is somebody who is affiliated with the UNC basketball team. I said it is obvious but it doesn't even have to be obvious to punish. It only needs to be likely. The known facts are way beyond likely.
Either the classes are legit or they are not. If the women's team is being punished for taking the classes then they obviously are not legit. If they are not legit and the men's team also took them, there needs to be a similar punishment or we are looking at classic case of discrimination against a protected class. That is the kind of thing that any organization needs to avoid.
At the end of the day, UNC cheated, the NCAA knows they cheated and the NCAA has the jurisdiction to levy a punishment.
Because a former NCAA investigator said so? Come on, you need more proof than that. Even with that, it doesn't mean anything about the officiating. Not everything is a conspiracy. Sure, there are some very corrupt aspects of the NCAA but the officials do not work for the NCAA. They're independent contractors, thet don't work for the NCAA.
They prey on the naive , you want a written document as proof ? They do it
Are you going to ask me to prove UNC knew about their cheating , if I can't are they innocent ?
Of all these confirmed grade changes, I wonder how many were for non-athletes? I'm guessing VERY few.
I agree. Bilas was a guy who seemed to be a cut above your average announcer. He and his fellow apologists and pretenders now are tainted.
I hate to say anything remotely in defense of UNC--I think they deserve the death penalty, this is the worst college athletics scandal I can recall, but your specific point doesn't really show that since the sample of African Americans among student athletes far exceeds the general student population. But again, UNC sucks and should be wiped from the history of the NCAA
True..its just an educated guess - i'm sure the statistics for graduating majors are available through the school.
I doubt AA studies would account for even 3% of majors for the UNC general student population (let alone the 20-30% range that some of those BBall teams had).
They'll get something. Won't be 30% of what it should be but the NCAA doesn't want to look bad here. UNC will get something.
Well, it will take a bit more evidence than a post of a public forum about a former NCAA investigator. I know that much. A written document would be suffice but I'll settle for a link or a story somewhere.
They do it? They do what? Whom? I'm not really sure what your issue is with me or what I've said. I did say that I think there is corruption and politics in the NCAA, that's blatantly obvious in my opinion. We are in agreement there. The only point that I disagreed with was the statement about the officials. That's all. They are not part of the NCAA and shouldn't be grouped with them in the same idea of the NCAA corruption. I was simply giving the experience of someone who has been in the business for 20+ years. I'll leave you to your thoughts now.
True. Regarding the courses being "open" I have yet to see anyone demonstrate that each of these classes were published in the student course catalogs.
If anything it's the opposite as some of the email correspondence indicated classes were set up at the last minute to accommodate at-risk athletes as favors. That doesn't strike me as a course "open to the general student body"
I keep hearing of "evidence" of grade changes. What I've read outside of this board and listened to on multiple radio shows is that there is confirmed evidence in UNC's women's basketball of someone performing academic tasks for students, but there is no such evidence of that happening for a football player or men's basketball player. If there is evidence of someone writing a paper or taking a test for a football player or men's basketball player, someone please cite it to me.
BTW, I am not defending NC, I am just trying to get information from what I am reading here. From what I read here, most of you seem uninformed of the actual allegations and the actual facts. Having very easy, or even bogus classes, doesn't appear to violate NCAA rules. What does violate NCAA rules, is to have someone other than the athlete write the paper for the very easy, or bogus class. My understanding is that in women's basketball, there is proof that either someone wrote papers or took tests for athletes. I further understand that the NCAA was not able to get such proof on football or Men's Basketball because no one has said otherwise. I keep hearing of "McCant's confession." I think he said he took the class that required a bs paper. He didn't say someone else wrote it. If I am wrong, please correct me. The biggest problem for me is trying to wade through the bs bias on here to determine exactly what evidence there is against UNC. Would someone please lay it out for me, bullitt points would be appreciated.
Sure BBB, do you want us to tuck you in bed as well? From the sound of your post, nothing we say will meet your approval anyway. McCants said he didn't go to any class or write any paper the entire semester, and made the Dean's List. If you need more than that, do do some reading.
Can you cite his quote. I'm not fighting, I just honestly haven't seen that. Some of you just want to fight. Just because someone said he said it on here doesn't make it true. I've read the article where McCants said he didn't go to class, but I've yet to see where he said he didn't write a paper.
He said he and the boys would drive over and pick up their papers from a tutor. Watch the video if you can find it on ESPN. You should do some research since you do know the facts.
You might have wanted to join the party a year or two ago when all of this was fresh.
I've looked for the video and can't find it. I've never said "I know the facts." Perhaps if you know them so well you can educate me. All I'm asking for is something other than you guys saying it. I'm on your side, I just don't believe things because someone says it here.
I put McCants Outside the Lines in Google and it was the first video that shows up. Maybe brush up on your searching game. "I didn't write any papers" was one of his quotes.
Are you an NCAA investigator?
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If it's not illegal to have classes with little "academic rigor," shouldn't all schools follow suit and adopt the Carolina Way? After all, the NCAA has signalled it's not against the rules. Just hold the classes out as available to all students (but in practice, make them available to just student athletes), and don't actually hold the students to even the slight amount of academic rigor the classes required (grade changes, papers written by others, papers written on a 4th grade level given a high grade).
UNC made a mockery of African-American studies, a mockery of the term "student-athlete," a mockery of higher learning, and a mockery of the investigations it conducted. It's only fitting then that they will make a mockery of the NCAA as well.
UNC made a mockery of African-American studies, a mockery of the term "student-athlete," a mockery of higher learning, and a mockery of the investigations it conducted. It's only fitting then that they will make a mockery of the NCAA as well.
I'll gladly wear my tin hat to keep from sporting the dunce cap your post cloaks you with .
If I told you that UNC was dirty before anything came out then you would have pointed to their sterling history as proof that I was wrong . You would stand behind that evidence alone because past behavior would suffice in your mind and you would be asking for proof to support my opinion .
The NCAA has shown to be openly corrupt in how they operate , the evidence has been cited many times and there have been many different situations showing this . They are a prestigious banana republic , given that which version of our opinions is most likely ? You can pretend all you want and sit there wanting proof while evidence of a corrupted organization races right by you . You were already duped for decades by UNC , don't let the NCAA take you for a ride too .
True.
The idea that UNC didn't break any rules is completely bogus. (and coincidentally exactly what the PR firms, which UNC has paid millions of dollars to, would like the public to think.) There are PLENTY of specific rules that they could be charged with, the problem is that either the NCAA doesn't want to or UNC has effectively lobbied the NCAA not to pursue anything with respect to basketball or football.
The issue which is lost is that UNC has been steering this investigation from Day 1, and has simply ignored or avoided numerous issues which by themselves could easily be violations. They 'self-report' additional charges on Jan Boxill, once they recognize that trying to frame everything on two individuals (which was their initial game plan) wouldn't fly. What about 'self-reporting' Wheels for Heels, ADHD testing, Tami Hansbrough's job among other things. Heck even the fact that Roy Williams was 'renting' out his house to a former player.
Were any of those things independently and thoroughly investigated? Were any of those things submitted to the NCAA as potential issues?
People (including Matt Jones BTW) have been suckered into ONLY looking at the idea of whether the bogus classes were specifically outlawed by the NCAA manual. That's so besides the point that it's a joke.
People need to look at the big picture and recognize that what Carolina did was to violate the very core principles that are clearly outlined in the NCAA manual and form the entire basis of fair competition. Principles like the Principle of "Fairness, Openness and Honesty", "Sound Academic Standards", "Principle of Rules Compliance", "Principle Governing Eligibility" etc.
The NCAA manual is criticized as being too long, and it might be, but it's simply not designed to specify every single potential infraction in detail. Instead it expects the institutions to adhere to core principles in terms upholding the stated goals and principles of the organization for which they are a member. The specific rules that are in place (most related to player eligibility, amateurism, recruiting etc.) are written with the understanding that the institutions themselves will not be involved in fraudulent or dishonest activities.
When Carolina is found to be completely negligent in upholding the core principles (which they clearly have), then frankly there's really no need to even cite a specific rule (even though again, many could be cited, especially for issues which the NCAA failed to adequately investigate).
Having someone claim that outright institutionalized fraud is 'technically not against the rules' is like a bank robber claiming that he did nothing wrong because when he was in the lobby of a bank he was about to rob, he saw a sign which only said to 'be quiet, don't chew gum, and wait for the next person in line'. In his mind because robbing the bank was not specifically listed, he should be found innocent.
It's such a bogus claim, but exactly the type of myopic argument that Bilas has tried to make, and for which for whatever reason Jones has bought hook line and sinker.
PS, the Penn State case has been brought up and was something which was discussed in detail on this board in the past. In that case the NCAA stepped in and punished the school even though there was no specific rules in the NCAA manual broken. At the time, and still today, I think the NCAA overstepped their bounds in that case. To me that was a criminal issue which the NCAA had no authority to stick their nose into. The ONLY reason they did was because it happened in the athletic department. If it had happened in the Math department or in the school of Nursing or in Facilities, it would have been handled completely differently. (i.e. by the criminal justice system in conjunction with the University administration)
But the UNC case is very different. For one, despite the claims by Bilas, UNC did indeed violate specific rules, even if you ONLY look at the relatively limit scope of issues that Wainstein investigated. For example UNC (as are all institutions) are required to certify that their athletes are academically eligible to compete each year. I would argue that by doing so with athletes that they either knew (or should have known) only met the minimal requirements with the aid of these bogus/suspect classes, that UNC administration itself was engaged in fraudulent and dishonest activities.
Secondly, while Penn State probably violated some core principles in the way they handled the Jerry Sandusky case, none of it directly impacted the eligibility of its student-athletes, and none of it affected the school's core focus of providing a quality education to those athletes. In UNC's case, their fraudulent activity not only affected, but it was the primary vehicle for keeping players playing, who otherwise would not have been eligible. And this in turn gave UNC a direct competitive advantage over it's rivals.
In such a case, the NCAA not only has the right, but they have the obligation to step in and punish the school which is clearly violating the core principles which they are expected to uphold. Otherwise the NCAA itself has failed to do its duty and there's no reason for it to exist.
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Jon, I truly wish you would send a link to this post to Jay's Twitter feed. I think all of us would be eager to see his response.
Excellent work!
Actually I'm considering preparing a series of responses, once I have some time to put it together.
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