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FB Recruiting Mark Stoops and UK football need a breakout year

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Mark Stoops/UK Athletics

Justin Rowland • CatsIllustrated.com
@RowlandRIVALS

Mark Stoops has done plenty of good things for Kentucky football. Now he needs to smash down another wall and take the program one step farther than it has been in quite some time.

LINK: https://kentucky.rivals.com/news/mark-stoops-needs-a-breakout-year
 
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His defense MUST improve this season. Coach Stoops was supposed to bring an elite pedigree on that side of the ball, yet he has failed to produce a sufficient defense to reach the next level in the SEC.

I realize that we also have to find a QB, but with all of our returning talent on the defense, Coach Stoops really needs to find a way to stop the better offenses on our schedule. No more missed tackles, blown coverages, alignment problems, late recognition of the offensive sets, etc.

THIS IS THE YEAR!!!
 
Point blank...UK is going to probably stink in two years as we lose Snell, CJ, Dorian, Big George, Bunchy, Josh Allen, Baity, Edwards, Westry, Lonnie, Jordan Jones. No way UK does anything but take a dip after losing all of that.

So this year is huge...we sort of crap out a 'meh' season, recruiting will be harder and then after two years...recruiting could fall off the map.
 
Point blank...UK is going to probably stink in two years as we lose Snell, CJ, Dorian, Big George, Bunchy, Josh Allen, Baity, Edwards, Westry, Lonnie, Jordan Jones. No way UK does anything but take a dip after losing all of that.

So this year is huge...we sort of crap out a 'meh' season, recruiting will be harder and then after two years...recruiting could fall off the map.
Players graduate at every school. This is why a new recruiting class is signed every year.
 
Players graduate at every school. This is why a new recruiting class is signed every year.
At schools like UK...we don't just re-assemble a roster after highly productive players graduate like Bama. Do you really think UK won't see a substantial fall off in talent for the 2019 season?
 
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Took Beamer 7 seasons to get a 9 win year (9-3, includes bowl win - first bowl of many at VT). Before that, the best he had was back-to-back 6 win seasons in years 3 & 4. The year before Tech won 9, they won 2. I suspect he needed a breakout year in year 6, but got it a year later.

That was a different age in college football. No internet, small recruiting budgets, very few games on TV, etc....Teams don't take as long to build now days. Recruiting grounds have probably expanded by 200+ miles than what they were back when Beamer was building VTech. You pretty much know what you are going to get within 5 years. This is make or break year for Stoops at any other program besides UK. We have always had one of the longer leashes in college football.
 
At schools like UK...we don't just re-assemble a roster after highly productive players graduate like Bama. Do you really think UK won't see a substantial fall off in talent for the 2019 season?

I think the 2016 team started the season having lost about 11 starters off the 2015 team. While the season started rough, UK won 2 more games in 2016 than it had the year before. A lot of talent by UK standards will depart after this season. It could be rough.

We lose about 5 off offense next year. If we have a solid QB returning, Rose establishes himself as an SEC RB, and the young TEs are solid, the offense could be pretty good. Admittedly, a few important “ifs” there.

We know we have young potential waiting to play on defense. Just gonna have to see how it looks on the field. Bohanna, Hoskins, Paschal, Carter, Daniel, Boogie, Griffin, Robinson may create a good nucleus of experience. Who steps up in the defensive backfield will be a question.
 
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That was a different age in college football. No internet, small recruiting budgets, very few games on TV, etc....Teams don't take as long to build now days. Recruiting grounds have probably expanded by 200+ miles than what they were back when Beamer was building VTech. You pretty much know what you are going to get within 5 years. This is make or break year for Stoops at any other program besides UK. We have always had one of the longer leashes in college football.

I think it may be more difficult today. You cannot hide recruits regionally today. Everyone has accesss to information.
 
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At schools like UK...we don't just re-assemble a roster after highly productive players graduate like Bama. Do you really think UK won't see a substantial fall off in talent for the 2019 season?
What is “at schools like UK” supposed to mean? That says everything. You believe there will be a “fall off in talent”. Whether that actually happens will depend on players like Terry Wilson, Kavosiey Smoke, Keaton Upshaw, Allen Dailey, Deontae Crumes, Darian Kinnard, Jake Pope, Marquan McCall, Davoan Hawkins, Jordan Wright, Chris Oats, Deandre Square, Tyrell Ajian, Yusuf Corker, Moses Douglass who you haven’t even given a chance yet. When Benny Snell got here, I was 1 of very few who said he would have a great college career, while most people were just scared to death that Boom would leave.
 
Must be 8 wins plus a bowl win or 9 regular season wins.
I would put it a little differently. I personally believe Stoops has the necessary talent and experience on hand to win 8-9 games this year, with a better bowl opportunity, and I would have some questions to ask if he can’t. But I think it’s possible to win 8 and still have some disappointments (for instance, if a couple of close SEC East games are blown), or win 6 and actually look pretty good (for instance, if key injuries are overcome and a late season upset victory is pulled off). Fact is, some people here will habitually criticize Stoops no matter how many games he wins, others will be patient regardless, and only the most observant will carefully follow week by week developmental issues.
 
What is “at schools like UK” supposed to mean? That says everything. You believe there will be a “fall off in talent”. Whether that actually happens will depend on players like Terry Wilson, Kavosiey Smoke, Keaton Upshaw, Allen Dailey, Deontae Crumes, Darian Kinnard, Jake Pope, Marquan McCall, Davoan Hawkins, Jordan Wright, Chris Oats, Deandre Square, Tyrell Ajian, Yusuf Corker, Moses Douglass who you haven’t even given a chance yet. When Benny Snell got here, I was 1 of very few who said he would have a great college career, while most people were just scared to death that Boom would leave.

On the one hand I would not be surprised if we take a step back next season if you look at the talent/experience loss, but on the other hand I agree that we have a lot of guys on our roster that haven't had much of a chance to show what they have yet. After all Allen was a lightly recruited 3 star that was a late substitution for a 4 star we missed on, Benny Snell was a 5.6 3 star, Jones was just a 3 star also. So a lot of these guys that become our best players were not ranked any higher than some of our current redshirts and freshmen were.
 
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That was a different age in college football. No internet, small recruiting budgets, very few games on TV, etc....Teams don't take as long to build now days. Recruiting grounds have probably expanded by 200+ miles than what they were back when Beamer was building VTech. You pretty much know what you are going to get within 5 years. This is make or break year for Stoops at any other program besides UK. We have always had one of the longer leashes in college football.

OMG thank you, the voice of f&*^%g reason! I'm so tired of hearing it takes 7-10 years to build a program. It doesn't if you have a coach that is worth his salt. Totally agree with the 'You should know what you have by season 5' quote. Stoops is what he is at this point. People expecting that all of a sudden the light is going to come on and he is going to become a coaching genius are going to be waiting a long time.

That said, I do think this team could be pretty good if things go their way this year (possibly or probably even in spite of Stoops). But, as I have said before, anything less than 7-8 wins (and really for me it's 8 wins min) and my already significantly waning faith in Stoops will dry up completely. At some point isn't it just time to deliver in spite of all your perceived imperfections as a program? It seems to happen everywhere at least once in a while, except UK. Hopefully it changes this year.
 
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Stoops has been given enough time to set up a solid foundation for winning. This is the year that UK football has the talent on the field and coaching (at least I hope so) to win 8 or even 9 games plus a decent bowl bid. I'll be really disappointed if we don't achieve this. Here's to hoping and praying that Kentucky football doesn't break our hearts again.
 
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OMG thank you, the voice of f&*^%g reason! I'm so tired of hearing it takes 7-10 years to build a program. It doesn't if you have a coach that is worth his salt. Totally agree with the 'You should know what you have by season 5' quote. Stoops is what he is at this point. People expecting that all of a sudden the light is going to come on and he is going to become a coaching genius are going to be waiting a long time.

That said, I do think this team could be pretty good if things go their way this year (possibly or probably even in spite of Stoops). But, as I have said before, anything less than 7-8 wins (and really for me it's 8 wins min) and my already significantly waning faith in Stoops will dry up completely. At some point isn't it just time to deliver in spite of all your perceived imperfections as a program? It seems to happen everywhere at least once in a while, except UK. Hopefully it changes this year.

Your second paragraph is a cop-out. Should have stuck with the strong language and conviction voiced in the first paragraph and avoided trying to give yourself a safety net. If you believe what you wrote, it ain’t changing this year. Own it.
 
His defense MUST improve this season. Coach Stoops was supposed to bring an elite pedigree on that side of the ball, yet he has failed to produce a sufficient defense to reach the next level in the SEC.

I realize that we also have to find a QB, but with all of our returning talent on the defense, Coach Stoops really needs to find a way to stop the better offenses on our schedule. No more missed tackles, blown coverages, alignment problems, late recognition of the offensive sets, etc.

THIS IS THE YEAR!!!
well you might want to think about rooting for Bama, then you still will be disappointed! No missed tackles, alignment problems blown coverages? Impossible, it happens with ALL FB teams, you know that!
 
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Your second paragraph is a cop-out. Should have stuck with the strong language and conviction voiced in the first paragraph and avoided trying to give yourself a safety net. If you believe what you wrote, it ain’t changing this year. Own it.

Okay, so I can’t be optimistic about the talent on the team but pessimistic because I don’t trust the head coach as far as I can throw him? Sounds reasonable to me.
 
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What is “at schools like UK” supposed to mean? That says everything. You believe there will be a “fall off in talent”. Whether that actually happens will depend on players like Terry Wilson, Kavosiey Smoke, Keaton Upshaw, Allen Dailey, Deontae Crumes, Darian Kinnard, Jake Pope, Marquan McCall, Davoan Hawkins, Jordan Wright, Chris Oats, Deandre Square, Tyrell Ajian, Yusuf Corker, Moses Douglass who you haven’t even given a chance yet. When Benny Snell got here, I was 1 of very few who said he would have a great college career, while most people were just scared to death that Boom would leave.
First...schools like UK just simply take a step back when losing all time leaders. Mizzou did when their DLine kids left, Miss St when Dak left, Ole Miss did when their bunch left 2 years ago, and UL will after Lamar Jackson era.

OK so in 2019....give me a forecast of if UK will decline, stay same of improve at the following spots?
1. Benny
2. Bunchy
3. CJ
4. Dorian
5. Big George
6. Josh Allen
7. Edwards
8. Jordan Jones
9. Baity
10. Lonnie Johnson/Westry

I'll give my first opinion. We will see pretty good fall off on Benny, CJ, Josh Allen, Edwards and Baity. I think we'll be fortunate to break even on Big George, Jordan Jones. We could improve over Lonnie/Westry, Bunchy and Dorian. Granted very hard to forecast out 2 years.
 
I would put it a little differently. I personally believe Stoops has the necessary talent and experience on hand to win 8-9 games this year, with a better bowl opportunity, and I would have some questions to ask if he can’t. But I think it’s possible to win 8 and still have some disappointments (for instance, if a couple of close SEC East games are blown), or win 6 and actually look pretty good (for instance, if key injuries are overcome and a late season upset victory is pulled off). Fact is, some people here will habitually criticize Stoops no matter how many games he wins, others will be patient regardless, and only the most observant will carefully follow week by week developmental issues.
The article isn't about developmental issues or being patient, it is about Stoops needing a breakthrough season to keep the program moving forward in the eyes of recruits & fans. Be as patient as you like and explain that we broke through with 6-7 wins because we had whatever developmental issues. I think you'll be in a lonely place if you take that position thru the season.
 
I think it may be more difficult today. You cannot hide recruits regionally today. Everyone has accesss to information.
Truth there. Regarding earlier discussion about Beamer at VPI, I think he "discovered" fairly early that there was some pretty good HS football being played in VA.

Peace
 
We have a huge question mark at QB position. Pretty tough schedule looks like 6-6
 
On the one hand I would not be surprised if we take a step back next season if you look at the talent/experience loss, but on the other hand I agree that we have a lot of guys on our roster that haven't had much of a chance to show what they have yet. After all Allen was a lightly recruited 3 star that was a late substitution for a 4 star we missed on, Benny Snell was a 5.6 3 star, Jones was just a 3 star also. So a lot of these guys that become our best players were not ranked any higher than some of our current redshirts and freshmen were.

Good points and exactly what I have been thinking.. our recruiting as a whole has been upgraded the last few years. Our depth now is quality depth. Also, who’s to say that these players coming in are not going to be better than what we are losing. No one...until they get on the field for extensive snaps. It’s not like the players we will be replacing are 4 and 5* can miss kids..
 
Okay, so I can’t be optimistic about the talent on the team but pessimistic because I don’t trust the head coach as far as I can throw him? Sounds reasonable to me.

The head coach builds talent by recruiting talent. So, are you admitting it can take 6-7 years to build a program and that you don’t necessarily know what you have by year 5?
 
I think the 2016 team started the season having lost about 11 starters off the 2015 team. While the season started rough, UK won 2 more games in 2016 than it had the year before. A lot of talent by UK standards will depart after this season. It could be rough.

We lose about 5 off offense next year. If we have a solid QB returning, Rose establishes himself as an SEC RB, and the young TEs are solid, the offense could be pretty good. Admittedly, a few important “ifs” there.

We know we have young potential waiting to play on defense. Just gonna have to see how it looks on the field. Bohanna, Hoskins, Paschal, Carter, Daniel, Boogie, Griffin, Robinson may create a good nucleus of experience. Who steps up in the defensive backfield will be a question.
I agree. The questions will be RB, DBs, and maybe OL. Everything else should be better or equal. You could argue LB will take a hit, but we've got some quality depth. Ultimately Benny and Edwards are gonna be the toughest to replace. Smoke or Rodriguez needs to pan out or we need a legit true freshman in 2019.
 
The head coach builds talent by recruiting talent. So, are you admitting it can take 6-7 years to build a program and that you don’t necessarily know what you have by year 5?

No, I am not admitting that. I think this team could’ve accomplished more 2 years ago as well as last year based on the talent alone. Look, I will readily admit that Stoops recruited the talent. But, we’ve all seen good to great recruiters over the years that couldn’t accomplish what the talent would suggest record-wise. To this point I haven’t seen anything to think this year will be any different. I hope it is, but that’s all it is at this point, hope. If somehow Stoops wins 8+ games this year, I will give him the credit he is due.
 
I agree. The questions will be RB, DBs, and maybe OL. Everything else should be better or equal. You could argue LB will take a hit, but we've got some quality depth. Ultimately Benny and Edwards are gonna be the toughest to replace. Smoke or Rodriguez needs to pan out or we need a legit true freshman in 2019.

No doubt losing Benny will be big but by the end of the year RB might not be a mystery. O-line certainly shouldn't be. If Landon returns we will be returning 13 of 15 scholarship guys - two starters will leave. There should be a good rotation along the O-line as well to develop experience and depth as the season progresses.

DB's - now I can agree that may be a great big unknown but we won't be lacking for talent returning. The other spot that will be young and a little thin will be LB but again, it may not look so bad after the season is over given that several of the young'uns should get some snaps.
 
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I think the 2016 team started the season having lost about 11 starters off the 2015 team. While the season started rough, UK won 2 more games in 2016 than it had the year before. A lot of talent by UK standards will depart after this season. It could be rough.
.

So you think losing Towles, Flanigan, Forrest, Hueginnin, Cory Johhson, AJ Stamps, Swingle, Melvin Lewis for 1/2 season is comparable to Benny, CJ, Big George, Dorian, Bunchy, Josh Allen, Baity, Lonnie, Edwards, Jordan?

I guess it all comes down to who replaces them in 2019 and how much of a dropoff along with can other spots on team take on more of a role (i.e. QB play in 2019, DL Play in 2019, etc..). Not that it matters right now...but I'm not holding high hopes for 2019 unless Terry Wilson starts looking like Cam Newton to build upon.
 
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If you look at the line personnel, we should actually have a stronger D-line in 2019 then this year and our O-line should be at least as good - maybe better if Price comes along. That's the main thing IMO. We do lose a lot in the secondary but other than Edwards no one in the secondary has really distinguished themselves that much anyway. All of them are replaceable. The Jack position will be a big void they need to fill. The QB position will have a year's worth of experience unlike this year. We may slide a little a TE but not significantly. Replacing Snell will be the biggest ? maybe AJ keeps coming on this year? But add it up and it doesn't look all that bad.
 
So you think losing Towles, Flanigan, Forrest, Hueginnin, Cory Johhson, AJ Stamps, Swingle, Melvin Lewis for 1/2 season is comparable to Benny, CJ, Big George, Dorian, Bunchy, Josh Allen, Baity, Lonnie, Edwards, Jordan?

I guess it all comes down to who replaces them in 2019 and how much of a dropoff along with can other spots on team take on more of a role (i.e. QB play in 2019, DL Play in 2019, etc..). Not that it matters right now...but I'm not holding high hopes for 2019 unless Terry Wilson starts looking like Cam Newton to build upon.

It is comparable. The loss is most definitely comparable.
 
I really don’t know what to expect this year. We have had it before- areas we thought were strengths, struggled. Areas we thought were going to be weaknesses, excelled. Some were just as we thought. I think the offense will be good. The defense? There are some pieces but it just seems they never do put it all together. I hope this is the year. I do think we will miss our place kicker who was a huge weapon.
I think UK must win four out of its first five games to have a good season. At Florida will be tough. Then the Mississippi State game and South Carolina game are pivotal. We always seem to struggle with MSU. And how many times in a row can Stoops own USC? It’s going to be interesting.
 
The article isn't about developmental issues or being patient, it is about Stoops needing a breakthrough season to keep the program moving forward in the eyes of recruits & fans. Be as patient as you like and explain that we broke through with 6-7 wins because we had whatever developmental issues. I think you'll be in a lonely place if you take that position thru the season.
Fans get bashed all the time here for being optimistic. Now a fan is being threatened with isolation for discussing the difference between optimism and withholding judgment. That's extreme.

Rich Brooks won bowls here, but couldn't translate that into better recruiting classes. That is the same question MS must answer now.

I have posted before about changes in staff recruiting assignments and efforts to open up new recruiting territories in MD, DC, MI, MO, LA, GA, and south FL. It is obvious that MS can sustain and even improve the winning momentum he established in 2016-17 - IF his future recruiting classes sustain and improve upward momentum in talent evaluation and recruitment he pulled off during the same period. If Stoops brings in better talent, then I believe he wins more games. He has done, on the whole, a pretty good job of developing players on hand, and his staff is good enough to implement better strategies. I am not in the camp that preaches like a broken record that MS is doomed to fail here. But it comes down to whether the recruiting strategy works. If it doesn't, then things turn the other way.
 
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Fans get bashed all the time here for being optimistic. Now a fan is being threatened with isolation for discussing the difference between optimism and withholding judgment. That's extreme.
Nonsense. No one is threatening anyone. It's a prediction that if some think a 6-7 win season can still be viewed as a breakthrough due to "development issues", whatever those are, that they won't have much company in that view.

Do you believe another 7-5 season will be a breakthrough? Thru what?
 
Nonsense. No one is threatening anyone. It's a prediction that if some think a 6-7 win season can still be viewed as a breakthrough due to "development issues", whatever those are, that they won't have much company in that view.

Do you believe another 7-5 season will be a breakthrough? Thru what?
???

This is a manufactured argument. I went up and down this thread again, but I don’t see where anyone suggested 7-5 would be a “breakthrough season” for MS in 2018.

You told the other guy “be patient as you like and explain that we broke through with 6-7 wins because we had whatever developmental issues”.

That was not what he said. So, that’s “nonsense”.

The 2018 season will play out, and it will be whatever it is. All of us have our expectations. Patience is considered a virtue everywhere but here.
 
So you think losing Towles, Flanigan, Forrest, Hueginnin, Cory Johhson, AJ Stamps, Swingle, Melvin Lewis for 1/2 season is comparable to Benny, CJ, Big George, Dorian, Bunchy, Josh Allen, Baity, Lonnie, Edwards, Jordan?

I guess it all comes down to who replaces them in 2019 and how much of a dropoff along with can other spots on team take on more of a role (i.e. QB play in 2019, DL Play in 2019, etc..). Not that it matters right now...but I'm not holding high hopes for 2019 unless Terry Wilson starts looking like Cam Newton to build upon.
It stands to reason that the better you recruit, the more the losses will be felt when those players graduate. We dread Benny’s loss because he is a big piece of the offense, but he was not a high profile recruit. These younger players deserve their chances, and they will have them. The real question here is whether MS can continue to up the recruiting ante by signing better players in future classes. His 2016, 2017, and 2018 classes looked strong to me, and I think fans will similarly lament loss of those players when the time comes for them to graduate, after they have made their marks on our team.

I don’t know yet what to think about the 2019 class, but I believe there is some pressure on MS to close it out with some big commitments in the fall. That may still work out. I have previously discussed changes in staff recruiting assignments and development of new recruiting territories. I think MS’s success here depends on these recruiting strategies succeeding.
 
I like that Stoops says he Hs his most complete team and they have worked very hard this summer. But, I also see how Stoops speaks truth positively. He talks improvement. His “most complete” team is only a perspective related to his other teams. He did not say this team should compete for an SEC title. He has instilled a culture and has tried to recruit well. While he is hopeful about improvement on the DLine, I don’t think that line is what he would want to make a real move in the SEC.
 
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