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Kids versus Men

IL Wildcat

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Feb 20, 2003
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That was one of the biggest complaints most seasons under Calipari. We always had talent, every season we had guys with NBA potential. But when we would have to play against a junior and senior laden team, or teams with grad student transfers, I always knew we were in for a long day. Talented kids are still kids. Less talented full-grown men with experience will usually have the edge.

This is one reason I'm excited to see the UK team this upcoming season. Aside from the fact that we're gonna have a real x's and o's coach and staff running the show, we also will be the team with some juniors and seniors on the floor at all times.

Calipari loved having 5 freshmen on the floor at once. Saw it as a badge of one and done honor, or something. But when was the last time UK played 5 seniors or grad students at one time? I'm guessing it was under Tubby, maybe the team that included Hawkins, Fitch, Daniel's, et al.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to not being the team full of kids this season. 😀
 
That was one of the biggest complaints most seasons under Calipari. We always had talent, every season we had guys with NBA potential. But when we would have to play against a junior and senior laden team, or teams with grad student transfers, I always knew we were in for a long day. Talented kids are still kids. Less talented full-grown men with experience will usually have the edge.

This is one reason I'm excited to see the UK team this upcoming season. Aside from the fact that we're gonna have a real x's and o's coach and staff running the show, we also will be the team with some juniors and seniors on the floor at all times.

Calipari loved having 5 freshmen on the floor at once. Saw it as a badge of one and done honor, or something. But when was the last time UK played 5 seniors or grad students at one time? I'm guessing it was under Tubby, maybe the team that included Hawkins, Fitch, Daniel's, et al.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to not being the team full of kids this season. 😀
I agree. When things "clicked" with the young team, it could be so fun to watch, but all too often, the young talent would be overcome by the experience and physical differences because of age.
 
That was one of the biggest complaints most seasons under Calipari. We always had talent, every season we had guys with NBA potential. But when we would have to play against a junior and senior laden team, or teams with grad student transfers, I always knew we were in for a long day. Talented kids are still kids. Less talented full-grown men with experience will usually have the edge.

This is one reason I'm excited to see the UK team this upcoming season. Aside from the fact that we're gonna have a real x's and o's coach and staff running the show, we also will be the team with some juniors and seniors on the floor at all times.

Calipari loved having 5 freshmen on the floor at once. Saw it as a badge of one and done honor, or something. But when was the last time UK played 5 seniors or grad students at one time? I'm guessing it was under Tubby, maybe the team that included Hawkins, Fitch, Daniel's, et al.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to not being the team full of kids this season. 😀
We are going to be pleased, very pleased with this team. I'm not saying national championship by no means but we aren't going to be intimidated by anybody.
I know there are lots of questions, but experience will be a factor for us. I feel like we are being underestimated and that's fine.
 
I agree. When things "clicked" with the young team, it could be so fun to watch, but all too often, the young talent would be overcome by the experience and physical differences because of age.
Yeah, I'm convinced the only way a team of mostly freshmen is gonna be very successful is if there is a truly transcendent kind of talent among them. For our 2011-12 team, it was Anthony Davis.

But even on that team, it must be noted. We had a senior starter in Darius Miller and 2 sophomores (because of an NBA lock-out) in Doron Lamb and Terrence Jones. That team really only had 3 significant freshmen- Davis, Teague, and Kidd-Gilchrist.
 
Yeah, I'm convinced the only way a team of mostly freshmen is gonna be very successful is if there is a truly transcendent kind of talent among them. For our 2011-12 team, it was Anthony Davis.

But even on that team, it must be noted. We had a senior starter in Darius Miller and 2 sophomores (because of an NBA lock-out) in Doron Lamb and Terrence Jones. That team really only had 3 significant freshmen- Davis, Teague, and Kidd-Gilchrist.
Darius Miller was the glue, the leader for that team.
 
Yeah, I'm convinced the only way a team of mostly freshmen is gonna be very successful is if there is a truly transcendent kind of talent among them. For our 2011-12 team, it was Anthony Davis.

But even on that team, it must be noted. We had a senior starter in Darius Miller and 2 sophomores (because of an NBA lock-out) in Doron Lamb and Terrence Jones. That team really only had 3 significant freshmen- Davis, Teague, and Kidd-Gilchrist.
Good post but Miller was the 6th man; MKG started every game at SF but the SECT title game….which we lost.

Miller did start 10 other games but was generally considered the nation’s best 6th man
 
Good post but Miller was the 6th man; MKG started every game but the SECT title game….which we lost.
I thought Kidd-Gilchrist gave up his starting spot mid-season. Maybe I'm misremembering. I remember him wanting Miller to play more and telling Calipari, and then Cal bragged on him for it, of course.
 
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I thought Kidd-Gilchrist have up his starting spot mid-season. Maybe I'm misremembering. I remember him wanting Miller to play more and telling Calipari, and then Cal bragged on him for it, of course.
Miller was our 6th man but he played starter minutes. In clutch situations, Miller was on the floor.
MKG was a good player, he was shy but played with alot of heart and was tougher than he appeared. He wouldn't back down.
 
I thought Kidd-Gilchrist have up his starting spot mid-season. Maybe I'm misremembering. I remember him wanting Miller to play more and telling Calipari, and then Cal bragged on him for it, of course.
MKG offered to give Miller his starting spot when Miller was struggling, but Cal said no. According to Cal.
Actually, he did give up his starting spot to Miller in the SEC tournament finals.
https://www.kentucky.com/sports/college/ncaa/article44160081.html
 
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Yeah, I'm convinced the only way a team of mostly freshmen is gonna be very successful is if there is a truly transcendent kind of talent among them. For our 2011-12 team, it was Anthony Davis.

But even on that team, it must be noted. We had a senior starter in Darius Miller and 2 sophomores (because of an NBA lock-out) in Doron Lamb and Terrence Jones. That team really only had 3 significant freshmen- Davis, Teague, and Kidd-Gilchrist.
The key in my opinion is to have a good mix. Cal’s best teams had a blend of young talent and experience. Think 2010 with Patterson as a junior and Miller/Liggins as sophomores, 2012 with the players you mentioned there, 2015 with junior WCS, sophomore Harrison Twins and Dakari. Trying to win on primarily freshman talent (as we tried this past season) will not work in this day and age.
 
That was one of the biggest complaints most seasons under Calipari. We always had talent, every season we had guys with NBA potential. But when we would have to play against a junior and senior laden team, or teams with grad student transfers, I always knew we were in for a long day. Talented kids are still kids. Less talented full-grown men with experience will usually have the edge.

This is one reason I'm excited to see the UK team this upcoming season. Aside from the fact that we're gonna have a real x's and o's coach and staff running the show, we also will be the team with some juniors and seniors on the floor at all times.

Calipari loved having 5 freshmen on the floor at once. Saw it as a badge of one and done honor, or something. But when was the last time UK played 5 seniors or grad students at one time? I'm guessing it was under Tubby, maybe the team that included Hawkins, Fitch, Daniel's, et al.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to not being the team full of kids this season. 😀
Eh...generally speaking, I had no problem with the rosters Cal produced most years.

You can find success with very young rosters who are also very talented.

The problem was the coaching (or lack thereof)...I have said it a million times, you give Pope last years roster, UK is in the FF. Not a doubt in my mind.

If Pope is somehow able to recruit very talented freshmen and trots them all out at once, I will not have a problem with it, as I think he is a much better in game coach then Cal is, and hopefully, wouldn't have a problem starting the correct five, unlike Cal.
 
The key in my opinion is to have a good mix. Cal’s best teams had a blend of young talent and experience. Think 2010 with Patterson as a junior and Miller/Liggins as sophomores, 2012 with the players you mentioned there, 2015 with junior WCS, sophomore Harrison Twins and Dakari. Trying to win on primarily freshman talent (as we tried this past season) will not work in this day and age.
Yep, I agree, and it's especially true with the transfer portal basically letting coaches build teams from transfers in their 3rd and 4th, sometimes 5th years of experience, who were all-conference in mid-majors or significant contributors on high-major teams. 18-19 year old kids struggle against guys who are 22-23-24. It truly is men against boys in most cases.
 
Eh...generally speaking, I had no problem with the rosters Cal produced most years.

You can find success with very young rosters who are also very talented.

The problem was the coaching (or lack thereof)...I have said it a million times, you give Pope last years roster, UK is in the FF. Not a doubt in my mind.

If Pope is somehow able to recruit very talented freshmen and trots them all out at once, I will not have a problem with it, as I think he is a much better in game coach then Cal is, and hopefully, wouldn't have a problem starting the correct five, unlike Cal.
You make a good point about coaching. I definitely agree. Give Pope last season's team and we might have won it all. That team did have some significant non-freshmen on the team, though. Cal's preferred approach is to start and play mostly freshmen. That's his m.o. He never would have won a title if not the NBA lock-out that brought Lamb and Jones back for a 2nd season.
 
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That was one of the biggest complaints most seasons under Calipari. We always had talent, every season we had guys with NBA potential. But when we would have to play against a junior and senior laden team, or teams with grad student transfers, I always knew we were in for a long day. Talented kids are still kids. Less talented full-grown men with experience will usually have the edge.

This is one reason I'm excited to see the UK team this upcoming season. Aside from the fact that we're gonna have a real x's and o's coach and staff running the show, we also will be the team with some juniors and seniors on the floor at all times.

Calipari loved having 5 freshmen on the floor at once. Saw it as a badge of one and done honor, or something. But when was the last time UK played 5 seniors or grad students at one time? I'm guessing it was under Tubby, maybe the team that included Hawkins, Fitch, Daniel's, et al.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to not being the team full of kids this season. 😀
no doubt the extra covid year changed the age of players in CBB
there is a huge difference in the body of a 17-19 year old and a 23-25 year old
 
I will be glad when the NBA takes kids right out of high school again. That way the talented players that want to play college ball will be taken by the blue bloods. Then you will have teams that play as teams.

All this talented freshman roster crap is total crap. No matter what, NO MATTER WHAT, young players that do not care about tradition, winning, teamwork will only care about getting to the next level. Fab 5 / didnt do it, no other freshman laden teams have done it. UK in 2012 was more than freshman, take away Miller, Lamb and Jones and you have a team that was not better than any of our other freshman teams.

Give me guys that are solid, good, talented multi year players and develop the system. Have a great x and o coach and lets get to gettin.

You guys that have only known UK under Cal need to expand your thought process. The new shiny new toy each year will get you no where.

Give me guys that have a mature body, mature mind, know what it takes to battle and such. That will go tons further.
 
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That was one of the biggest complaints most seasons under Calipari. We always had talent, every season we had guys with NBA potential. But when we would have to play against a junior and senior laden team, or teams with grad student transfers, I always knew we were in for a long day. Talented kids are still kids. Less talented full-grown men with experience will usually have the edge.

This is one reason I'm excited to see the UK team this upcoming season. Aside from the fact that we're gonna have a real x's and o's coach and staff running the show, we also will be the team with some juniors and seniors on the floor at all times.

Calipari loved having 5 freshmen on the floor at once. Saw it as a badge of one and done honor, or something. But when was the last time UK played 5 seniors or grad students at one time? I'm guessing it was under Tubby, maybe the team that included Hawkins, Fitch, Daniel's, et al.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to not being the team full of kids this season. 😀
Totally agree. Age and experience over young talent, unless that talent overly abundant.
 
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Eh...generally speaking, I had no problem with the rosters Cal produced most years.

You can find success with very young rosters who are also very talented.

The problem was the coaching (or lack thereof)...I have said it a million times, you give Pope last years roster, UK is in the FF. Not a doubt in my mind.


If Pope is somehow able to recruit very talented freshmen and trots them all out at once, I will not have a problem with it, as I think he is a much better in game coach then Cal is, and hopefully, wouldn't have a problem starting the correct five, unlike Cal.

This.
 
Like Mebeblue2’s statement - “Talented kids are still kids”, so true. Judging a talented kid on the high school level and projecting where he might be in 1-4 years is difficult. That “potential NBA player” as an 18 year old freshman matched up against a 22 year old senior that was only a 3* in high school is usually overmatched. College game experience, learning from mistakes and successes, more coaching, and overall maturity only comes with experience. It cannot be rushed or taught.

In addition, potential is often based on their athletic/physical attributes (vertical jump, wingspan, size of hands, quickness) instead of basketball skills/aptitude (shooting, passing, rebounding, ability to see the court, toughness, will to win). Our previous UK coach valued the athletic/physical attributes of inexperienced players over the basketball/aptitude skills of experienced players. In short, talent beats experience to which I would respond, sometimes but not often.

At the college level, I prefer players that are going to be good/great and could care less what their NBA potential may be. They may never reach the NBA but might help bring a title to UK. I am not opposed to the occasional 5* player on the roster, but depending on 4 or 5 to take you far in the NCAA tournament is not an intelligent strategy. Plus, these players come into college thinking they are great and want to play significant minutes right off the bat.

Believe that Coach Pope and staff will be building future UK team rosters of freshman thru seniors and graduate players that fit and complement each other on the court with winning games and championships as the #1 goal. A true team!
 
I agree. It’s a different mindset. Men are men and boys are boys. Even when a boy is a dawg, he isn’t a man. Richard Pryor said it best, “Old men don’t bullsxxx when they be fightin.”
 
That was one of the biggest complaints most seasons under Calipari. We always had talent, every season we had guys with NBA potential. But when we would have to play against a junior and senior laden team, or teams with grad student transfers, I always knew we were in for a long day. Talented kids are still kids. Less talented full-grown men with experience will usually have the edge.

This is one reason I'm excited to see the UK team this upcoming season. Aside from the fact that we're gonna have a real x's and o's coach and staff running the show, we also will be the team with some juniors and seniors on the floor at all times.

Calipari loved having 5 freshmen on the floor at once. Saw it as a badge of one and done honor, or something. But when was the last time UK played 5 seniors or grad students at one time? I'm guessing it was under Tubby, maybe the team that included Hawkins, Fitch, Daniel's, et al.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to not being the team full of kids this season. 😀
Don't you know age doesn't automatically mean maturity!🤣
I agree. It’s a different mindset. Men are men and boys are boys. Even when a boy is a dawg, he isn’t a man. Richard Pryor said it best, “Old men don’t bullsxxx when they be fightin.”
 
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I’d love to know…

Were the freshman from around 2006ish-2017ish simply on a different level than they are now?

Or was it a function of any older player in the NCAA with talent jumped ship for any pro opportunity they could?

It’s both clear that the OAD mostly worked until suddenly it didn’t. Why?
 
Don't most college teams have upperclassmen? What will set us apart if not talent?
 
Once the NCAA started the grad transfer stuff and even more so the COVID years, young teams like Cal recruited was a disadvantage. Cal was starting to use the transfer portal but still had flawed teams . I think he will be even more motivated now to fix the missing pieces in his lineup through the portal.
 
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I am looking forward to a Coach and staff that prepare for opponents, run an offense and change defenses, put kids in position to succeed and win games.
100% agree

Just having a coach who scouts opposing teams and we have a gameplan

Watching opposing players do the same thing while we allow easy shot after easy shot…infuriating!

Constant ball screen that we broke down constantly to never throw up a defense switch, zone , etc

To hardly ever take away their best player and make lesser players take more shots

whatever the opposition tempo wise wanted to play was how we played….they play fast…they play slow etc. we rarely forced our will

Having actual game prep, coaching maneuvers etc..this mostly should help generate wins
 
We started 2 23 year olds last year. The 3 leading scorers in 23 were seniors. Started 4 juniors in 2022. There’s nothing more dumb than a clueless raftard with a talking point. The truth doesn’t matter, only the narrative and the talking point to uphold the narrative.

The truth is Cal fell off when he had older teams. It’s easy to look up for yourselves but you pathetic goofs are too dumb for that. Y’all hate facts. Y’all hate critical thinking, y’all hate anything that goes against your narrative.
I should probably ignore your ridiculous post here. I don't disagree with everything you said, but you've overstated it by a long shot. Your insults aside, there is validity to a couple things here.

1. Calipari's usual approach is recruit elite freshmen and try to compete with 22-23-24 year Olds.

2. Now, the last 2 years have been exceptions in some respects. Both teams had upperclassmen, yes, and those upperclassmen led the teams in scoring and contributing in multiple other ways. That proves the point I was making with my "raftard" post. But those teams also relied heavily on freshmen. Those freshmen did what freshmen do when they face a challenge for the first time. Even Sheppard, whom I love dearly and loved his game, laid an egg in both the SEC tournament and the NCAA-T. And that also proves the point we're making.

3. Now, given the makeup of these last 2 teams, the results should have been better. But the problem is 2-fold: first, the competition became even more mature than in the past because of the transfer portal, and second, Calipari has obviously lost something that he once had at UK. He was wound as tightly as a drum coming into that game and it clearly affected the players, especially the freshmen. Just look at the numbers.

So, it wasn't that the teams were older that caused the issue. It was that CAL was older, or lost his nerve, or something.

And by the way, the purpose of my post is not so much an attack on Calipari as it is an evaluation of how to build a team in the transfer portal age. In the past, these options weren't as readily available. Transfers were rare. But now every player is a free agent every season. So, building a team doesn't have to depend only on freshmen recruits. That's the point I'm making. If I'm choosing between a physically mature 3 or 4 star guy who has 3 or 4 years of experience in the the NCAA or a 5-star freshman who is talented and has the measurables but is wet behind the ears, I'd rather major on the mature players and minor on the kids.

Now, I mentioned in my original raftard post here, there are exceptions. There are some pretty rare exceptions when you have a guy who is a transcendent talent, like Anthony Davis or LeBron James or someone similar. But the problem is, you don't always know if that's who you're looking at, and sometimes that guy just isn't ready and you'll just see potential and not results.

But I'd still recruit some freshmen if I were the coach. I'd choose them very carefully and I'd still prefer a more mature and proven transfer, or a returning player (which rarely happened under Calipari's system) over a talented kid.

By the way, you can make your point without insulting the entire board with your favorite phrases. It would not only be more effective in making your point reasonably, it would also keep you posting on the board longer, hopefully for many years to come.
 
I’d love to know…

Were the freshman from around 2006ish-2017ish simply on a different level than they are now?

Or was it a function of any older player in the NCAA with talent jumped ship for any pro opportunity they could?

It’s both clear that the OAD mostly worked until suddenly it didn’t. Why?
Transfer portal is the biggest factor. Teams can build primarily upperclassmen rosters and stack a team full of very good college players that were “the guy” from whatever smaller college Or smaller conference they came from.

Pre-open portal, even older teams were still predominantly built similar to 3 seniors, 2Jrs, 4 soph, 3 fresh. And you’re hoping it’s your underclassmen that develop and are the diamond in the rough types…instead of going out and building a 5-8 man roster of guys already proven to have developed
 
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We are going to be pleased, very pleased with this team. I'm not saying national championship by no means but we aren't going to be intimidated by anybody.
I know there are lots of questions, but experience will be a factor for us. I feel like we are being underestimated and that's fine.
I think you gotta wait and see. We are going to have seniors but they all played at a much lower level than they will next year. Once Tennessee, South Carolina and the other SEC teams that are taught to foul 200xs a game get them frustrated who knows. If you haven’t played in the SEC before, you never know. Our league is on a different planet from all others.
 
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Yeah, I'm convinced the only way a team of mostly freshmen is gonna be very successful is if there is a truly transcendent kind of talent among them. For our 2011-12 team, it was Anthony Davis.

But even on that team, it must be noted. We had a senior starter in Darius Miller and 2 sophomores (because of an NBA lock-out) in Doron Lamb and Terrence Jones. That team really only had 3 significant freshmen- Davis, Teague, and Kidd-Gilchrist.
Yes, and I would put MKG almost at the same level as AD. That team was special because of the freakish athleticism of those two frosh and the experience and talent of the upperclassmen. Teague was solid at the point as well. I think what a lot of us missed (myself included) was that Cal's system could rarely put a combination like that on the floor.
 
I think you gotta wait and see. We are going to have seniors but they all played at a much lower level than they will next year. Once Tennessee, South Carolina and the other SEC teams that are taught to foul 200xs a game get them frustrated who knows. If you haven’t played in the SEC before, you never know. Our league is on a different planet from all others.
I think we are going to be just fine in the SEC.
 
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Agree with age, maturity aspects. The type of game play/style is also key. The college game is different from high school/AAU all-star prep circuit ball and NBA. The latter two are very similar.

Not only were Cal teams always at an age, maturity, experience disadvantage, but they're also playing a very different game.

Our rosters may have ultimately had more talent, and future pros, but all the teams that Cal struggled against, specifically post season in SEC and NCAA tournaments, had the reps in the college game.

It's why the transfers and trying to patchwork/jerry rig some "experience" hasn't worked.

Our transfers have been guys with degrees who've been playing with other guys with degrees for coaches that play a college game, coach a college game, develop for a college game and now you ask them to play pro ball with babies for a coach who isn't coaching, Xing Oing, developing for the college game.
 
In the spirit of "screaming positive" ... I appreciated seeing this post from you.

Peace.

Go 'Cats ! ! !
 
That was one of the biggest complaints most seasons under Calipari. We always had talent, every season we had guys with NBA potential. But when we would have to play against a junior and senior laden team, or teams with grad student transfers, I always knew we were in for a long day. Talented kids are still kids. Less talented full-grown men with experience will usually have the edge.

This is one reason I'm excited to see the UK team this upcoming season. Aside from the fact that we're gonna have a real x's and o's coach and staff running the show, we also will be the team with some juniors and seniors on the floor at all times.

Calipari loved having 5 freshmen on the floor at once. Saw it as a badge of one and done honor, or something. But when was the last time UK played 5 seniors or grad students at one time? I'm guessing it was under Tubby, maybe the team that included Hawkins, Fitch, Daniel's, et al.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to not being the team full of kids this season. 😀
How many times over the last 7/8/9 years did we see our freshman look really good during the regular season & then tighten up and choke at tournament time..... More that I want to remember
 
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