Honest question for Cal supporters

[TankedCat]

I’d pretty strongly disagree that we’ve “tolerated” subpar. People were complaining about Cal and arguing he was over the hill before this season. Roy went 14-19 last year. That’s historically bad too. Guess we’ll have to monitor and see if their fans start claiming he’s done for or if they learned their lesson the last time.

Compare fan interaction to the last 4 years versus this year.

last 4 is tolerated by Kentucky standards. Just go read the last 2 weeks of articles at KSR. They weren't writing stories telling Cal to stop lying and saying he was full of BS in regards to who he plays and doesn't play before this year. But Cal hasn't changed in those years.

 

[RunninRichie]

I’d pretty strongly disagree that we’ve “tolerated” subpar. People were complaining about Cal and arguing he was over the hill before this season. Roy went 14-19 last year. That’s historically bad too. Guess we’ll have to monitor and see if their fans start claiming he’s done for or if they learned their lesson the last time.

roy has 3 titles

 

[JoeBolognas]

roy has 3 titles

And I have two nipples. What’s the argument?

 

[RunninRichie]

And I have two nipples. What’s the argument?

14-19 and 3 titles gives you more leeway. Not to mention Roy was only 3 years off a title. Cal is 1-6 with 8 years off a title.

 

[JoeBolognas]

14-19 and 3 titles gives you more leeway. Not to mention Roy was only 3 years off a title. Cal is 1-6 with 8 years off a title.

Sure, it certainly gives you more leeway. Agree completely there. But it doesn’t really answer whether it would be smarter for UNC to just cut ties with Roy now, taking emotions, built-up credibility with the fans given past history, etc. out of it.

To put it another way, take the OP’s example: If UNC started with a new coach in 2018 and for three seasons hadn’t gotten to the elite 8 and had a historically bad 14-19 season, would they want him canned?

Better yet, if UNC had started off with a brand new coach in 2010 and went six seasons without a final four and included an NIT finish, would they have stuck with him?

I don’t see how the response, especially to the latter, would really be that different than what some are saying in response to the OP about Cal’s last five years (and one shouldn’t really count and this one isn’t finished, btw). But they would have been wrong to can him. I guess the jury is still out on whether UNC should go ahead and nix Roy now.

 

[KyFaninNC]

Roy Williams went to a final four in 93, but didn't get back to that round for nearly a decade. He won two titles in five seasons at North Carolina, but he followed that up with: NIT, Elite 8, Elite 8, Round of 32, Round of 32, Sweet 16 before he finally punched it in again. He won a title in 2017, but followed that up with a Round of 32, Sweet 16, and then one of the worst seasons in recent UNC history.

Roy didn't change anything to his approach; he's had the same philosphy for decades. Having some bad teams didn't mean he'd lost a step or that he needed to make sweeping changes. Some of his teams just didn't work, and some of his teams did.

People always want to try and draw trends for these things. Sometimes they're right, but success and failure isn't always linear for coaches or suggestive of a "direction" that a coach is headed in. Sometimes your team hits a big shot to push you through to the Final Four (Knight in 2011), and sometimes the team hits a big shot against you to keep you out of it (Luke Maye in 2017).

What is the evidence that this is a Landry situation and not a Roy Williams situation?

What function does Roy Williams serve at UK?

 

[Cawood86]

Roy Williams went to a final four in 93, but didn't get back to that round for nearly a decade. He won two titles in five seasons at North Carolina, but he followed that up with: NIT, Elite 8, Elite 8, Round of 32, Round of 32, Sweet 16 before he finally punched it in again. He won a title in 2017, but followed that up with a Round of 32, Sweet 16, and then one of the worst seasons in recent UNC history.

Roy didn't change anything to his approach; he's had the same philosphy for decades. Having some bad teams didn't mean he'd lost a step or that he needed to make sweeping changes. Some of his teams just didn't work, and some of his teams did.

People always want to try and draw trends for these things. Sometimes they're right, but success and failure isn't always linear for coaches or suggestive of a "direction" that a coach is headed in. Sometimes your team hits a big shot to push you through to the Final Four (Knight in 2011), and sometimes the team hits a big shot against you to keep you out of it (Luke Maye in 2017).

What is the evidence that this is a Landry situation and not a Roy Williams situation?

Williams won a title 3 years ago. Went to back to back FF's in '16 and '17. He's won 3 titles at UNC. Beats dook regularly. He's built his own legacy. Won more titles than Dean Smith. Been to 5 FF's.
If Cal had those accomplishments, this current divide isn't happening.

 

[RunninRichie]

Williams won a title 3 years ago. Went to back to back FF's in '16 and '17. He's won 3 titles at UNC. Beats dook regularly. He's built his own legacy. Won more titles than Dean Smith. Been to 5 FF's.
If Cal had those accomplishments, this current divide isn't happening.

Exactly my point.

 

[Cawood86]

Calipari has won six regular season titles in 11 seasons, Roy has won nine in 17 seasons. So Roy has contributed more to UNC in that regard, but in terms of success rate, thats not very different.

Agreed that Roy has a different system in terms of how he builds a roster and develops a team, but I still think it shows that really good coaches can have great seasons followed by down seasons followed by great seasons again and I don't agree that he's an exemplar of consistency. Roy went about 7 seasons in between championship game appearances, so its not like UNC fans can just bank on Roy churning out one extremely high caliber team of Juniors and Seniors every three or four years once he's developed a new crop of players. Roy went through multiple cycles of players without his system producing elite results again. If we're this pissed at Cal for no final fours in four seasons, how is Roy consistent when he went seven years without a final four?

And I don't really agree that Cal is not trying to put the kind of team he needs together. He's still recruiting athletic big men who can block shots, he's still recruiting athletic slashers, etc. It hasn't gelled so far this season and some of the freshmen we were counting on to be elite clearly aren't, for sure. That is 1000% on Cal, just like Roy's crappy seasons were 1000% on him. But if you had called Roy washed in 2015 after seven straight years of subpar (for UNC) results, you would have ended up being wrong.

Roy has to compete with another blue blood in his same conference every year.
Cal does not.
I am no fan of Williams, but 3 titles is 3 titles.

 

[MoneyMuntz]

We were a legit contender last season. How we just gonna ignore that???

 

[JoeBolognas]

What function does Roy Williams serve at UK?

Do you understand how arguments work? It’s called a comparison.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I'd like to hear @MdWIldcat55 's perspective. He usually offers a lot of depth of analysis.

Or @GonzoCat90 .

 

[JoeBolognas]

Williams won a title 3 years ago. Went to back to back FF's in '16 and '17. He's won 3 titles at UNC. Beats dook regularly. He's built his own legacy. Won more titles than Dean Smith. Been to 5 FF's.
If Cal had those accomplishments, this current divide isn't happening.

Okay, go ahead and tell yourself that. Somehow I don’t believe that if cal went six years without a final four, including an NIT appearance - even if he’d previously won two titles - that you wouldn’t be here complaining and arguing that he was washed.

and, by the way, the OP was about taking away prior accomplishments and only looking at the “bad” stretch.

 

[RunninRichie]

Okay, go ahead and tell yourself that. Somehow I don’t believe that if cal went six years without a final four, including an NIT appearance - even if he’d previously won two titles - that you wouldn’t be here complaining and arguing that he was washed.

We’re about to be 6 years off a final four with a NIT/CBI appearance. So?

 

[JoeBolognas]

We’re about to be 6 years off a final four with a NIT/CBI appearance. So?

weird, didn’t realize this season was already over. Also didn’t realize you could count a season where the tournament didn’t even happen. Really strong argument

 

[Kentuckiddy]

First off AU had their best 2 players, those guards. I know who you are talking about and he may have went higher in the draft but at that point and time those two guards were the problem.
2ndly we were trying to beat them for a 3rd straight time that season, thats hard.
3rdly its UKs worst start since 1923 not 1911 so get your facts straight.
4thly 5-7 v UT since 2016 and 4-4 v Auburn is not “getting owned.”

Keep on defending.

You're the exact problem.

 

[Backer cutter]

Some on here need to go back and read post number 30 in this thread. That’s where I stopped. Don’t know anything about the poster. Maybe the nicest guy/gal on here. But naive isn’t in the same category as the word I’m thinking of. Just smh. Doing a lot of that lately.

 

[track42]

weird, didn’t realize this season was already over. Also didn’t realize you could count a season where the tournament didn’t even happen. Really strong argument

I'm thinking it's safe to say this team isn't making the Final 4 this season.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Some on here need to go back and read post number 30 in this thread. That’s where I stopped. Don’t know anything about the poster. Maybe the nicest guy/gal on here. But naive isn’t in the same category as the word I’m thinking of. Just smh. Doing a lot of that lately.

You're right. It's completely naïve to think a hall of fame coach could turn around a program like UK.

My bad,

 

[gwjenning]

weird, didn’t realize this season was already over. Also didn’t realize you could count a season where the tournament didn’t even happen. Really strong argument

You say the season isn’t over. We do have games left to be played. Do you believe we make the NCAA tournament? Do we even make the NIT?
You come off as a strong Cal supporter so I must ask, what goals will this years team need to accomplish for you to say it’s another successful season under cal? Or better yet, do you already consider this a successful season?

 

[JoeBolognas]

You say the season isn’t over. We do have games left to be played. Do you believe we make the NCAA tournament? Do we even make the NIT?
You come off as a strong Cal supporter so I must ask, what goals will this years team need to accomplish for you to say it’s another successful season under cal? Or better yet, do you already consider this a successful season?

I think we make the tournament. Hard for me to envision much more than that. I think we could be a solid team by the year end, but we’ve already done too much damage to our resume, so even if we do get it together, we’ll have an extremely tough road to make it deep.

This year will almost certainly be a failure compared to expectations. That’s on Calipari. It’s his failure to own. But, I don’t think it necessarily means something much more drastic than just that: one really bad season, like many great coaches before him have had. Sometimes a team just does not come together. Happens to the best of em.

Some of us are capable of looking at things rationally and objectively. Maybe try it some time.

 

[Backer cutter]

You're right. It's completely naïve to think a hall of fame coach could turn around a program like UK.

My bad,

Think maybe my point flew right over your head, and I figured it would with most. Like I said, read the post. What stands out? If what you’re referring to stood out to you, you’re mind is made up, and you aren’t the one I’m talking to. C’mon man.

 

[Cawood86]

Okay, go ahead and tell yourself that. Somehow I don’t believe that if cal went six years without a final four, including an NIT appearance - even if he’d previously won two titles - that you wouldn’t be here complaining and arguing that he was washed.

and, by the way, the OP was about taking away prior accomplishments and only looking at the “bad” stretch.

Tell myself? What did I say about Williams that isn't true?
You think I or most others on here would be this frustrated and begging for Cal to change his current system if he had 3 titles in his time here and was 3 years from a title and back to back FF's?
I do not believe that.

 

[The_Answer1313]

Think maybe my point flew right over your head, and I figured it would with most. Like I said, read the post. What stands out? If what you’re referring to stood out to you, you’re mind is made up, and you aren’t the one I’m talking to. C’mon man.

They might be right. They might be wrong.
We prob lose some players but some people act as if we lose everyone all the time. Guys do come back.

 

[JoeBolognas]

Tell myself? What did I say about Williams that isn't true?
You think I or most others on here would be this frustrated and begging for Cal to change his current system if he had 3 titles in his time here and was 3 years from a title and back to back FF's?
I do not believe that.

If cal won two titles but then followed that up with six straight years without a final four and had an NIT in that timeframe, you would absolutely be here claiming Cal is washed just like you are now. Yeah, I believe that 1000000%.

 

[Backer cutter]

They might be right. They might be wrong.
We prob lose some players but some people act as if we lose everyone all the time. Guys do come back.

Hope you are right, I really do.

 

[track42]

Hope you are right, I really do.

I'm not counting on it.People were talking about how many would return last season and we see how that turned out.

 

[Cawood86]

They might be right. They might be wrong.
We prob lose some players but some people act as if we lose everyone all the time. Guys do come back.

I can only think of 3 guys who Cal recruitef to UK that stayed 4 years. Willis, Hawkins, and Poythress. Maybe I'm forgetting someone.
Point is, most every year UK loses loses more players than anyone else in the country. If not for the grad transfer rule, I can only imagine the rodters UK would have. But Cal has all these kids thinking one year or two at the most and I'm in the league.

 

[Backer cutter]

I'm not counting on it.People were talking about how many would return last season and we see how that turned out.

Yep. People keep sayin it every year, hence my post. But, I give up. Eternal optimism is here to stay, as is Cal. I’m just an old idiot. That’s gonna save a few finger blisters. Don’t thank me, donate to your favorite future NBA prospect, the 5 star who becomes a bust because he can fly like superman and land like Wiley Coyote. He will be glad you did.

 

[gwjenning]

I think we make the tournament. Hard for me to envision much more than that. I think we could be a solid team by the year end, but we’ve already done too much damage to our resume, so even if we do get it together, we’ll have an extremely tough road to make it deep.

This year will almost certainly be a failure compared to expectations. That’s on Calipari. It’s his failure to own. But, I don’t think it necessarily means something much more drastic than just that: one really bad season, like many great coaches before him have had.

Some of us are capable of looking at things rationally and objectively. Maybe try it some time.

Thanks for the answer!
I look at things rationally and objectively.
I’ve been watching basketball for a long time. To me it’s not only about not making a final four in soon to be six years.
A sword can cut both ways. It’s a scary thought that Cal didn’t come away with at least one NC out of the 2010 and 2015 teams. Cal likes to brag about all the guys we have in the league and only has one NC to show for that. That’s scary!
When is the last time Cal won a game we had no business winning? Keeping with the sword. When is the last time Cal lost a game we had no business losing?
People want to think Cal can change and adapt! Yet every season except one he‘s been sent home from the NCAA tournament by missed free throws or his team looking as if the word zone didn’t exist in the dictionary! Got his Derrick Rose Memphis team sent home as well!
I wanted Cal as coach! I got mad when BCG was hired over him. But seeing him choke with unmatched talent and seeing the hole he is starting to burrow us into! I realize he really is a very average coach! His offense is boring and outdated! He has one play. It’s called the Go, Go, Go!
I wish he was the coach I thought he was but he’s just not! I’m nervous about how far we will fall under cal now that the best recruits are spread out!

 

[Cawood86]

If cal won two titles but then followed that up with six straight years without a final four and had an NIT in that timeframe, you would absolutely be here claiming Cal is washed just like you are now. Yeah, I believe that 1000000%.

First, I never said Cal is washed up. Show me if I did.
If you cant discuss honestly, don't waste my time.
Second, believe whatever you like. I have defended Cal like he was my brother for years on here. Look it up.
I can't defend 1-6. I can't defend his mocking fans. I can't defend his bizarre statements lately about Allen, about letting some players play thru issues and others not.
He chooses this way he's doing things. Sounds dug in by his comments.
1-6 should cause him analyze everything he's doing.

 

[kywildcat41086]

Will you be willing to leave until we have a new coach along with all the others crying? If you hate him there’s many reasons not to watch his teams.

Why do we have to leave we were fans way before he came along ? We can have our opinions just like you can have your opinions . We love the University of Kentucky and not the University of Calipari we just want what's best for our school we have cheered for since we were born!

 

[kywildcat41086]

Absolutely not! I’m a fan of the University of Kentucky! That includes men’s bb, football, archery, women’s bb, baseball, softball, volleyball, etc. I watch all UK sports every chance I get.
I was a fan of UK long before Cal and will be a fan long after he’s gone.
Right now I’m not a fan of Cal but I will continue to pull for this team and the players on it especially Dontae Allen.

I wish I could give this a million likes but I will take it a step further I also like there men's and women's soccer teams!

 

[billCgmx]

No problem. What’s your share of the 20+ mill buy out. That’s what I figured.

Laughs.

That would none since I'm not calling for Cal to be fired. But it's silly to say fans have no control over the future of a program or its coach.

Auburn Fires Gus Malzahn, Will Pay $21 Million Contract Buyout

Every college football season, like clockwork, Auburn Tigers head coach Gus Malzahn found himself on the proverbial hot seat. It seriously never failed. After each loss, a disgruntled fan base lit up social media demanding a change, yet nothing ever happened... until now. On Sunday, December 13...

fanbuzz.com

 

[kybassfan]

That would none since I'm not calling for Cal to be fired. But it's silly to say fans have no control over the future of a program or its coach.

Auburn Fires Gus Malzahn, Will Pay $21 Million Contract Buyout

Every college football season, like clockwork, Auburn Tigers head coach Gus Malzahn found himself on the proverbial hot seat. It seriously never failed. After each loss, a disgruntled fan base lit up social media demanding a change, yet nothing ever happened... until now. On Sunday, December 13...

fanbuzz.com

Malzahn’s contract is very different from Cal’s. Also Auburn had be unwilling or unsuccessful in shielding their programs from the fanbase and boosters. They is why the NCAA and crawl up their ass so easily.

The two situations are completely unrelated.

 

[Wildcat Sheli]

The only reason Auburn was even in that game was because of the kid that got hurt, the guards were good but that kid was on fire.

Another reason is that a “miracle” occurred in that game: though Auburn was in foul trouble, in the final 9:17 of regulation, they were not called for a SINGLE foul. https://kentucky.forums.rivals.com/threads/no-fouls-on-auburn-in-the-last-9-18.294090/

I looked at the stats for both Auburn’s tournament games as well as the other teams in the Elite Eight and going that long without a foul simply does not happen, and certainly not in a game that goes to Overtime and sends the winner to the Final Four!

Refs were Mike Roberts (officiated this season’s loss to Notre Dame), Terry Wymer (officiated this season’s loss to UNC) and Brian Dorsey.

At the end of regulation, we were ONE point away from another Final Four, and yet again our opponent got help from the stripes to get there.

 

[EKUcatfan]

Cal is the best thing that has happened to us since Rupp. This is a minor blip.

Cals career is equivalent to Joe B. Still not on Ricks level. Rick got it.

 

[JoeBolognas]

First, I never said Cal is washed up. Show me if I did.
If you cant discuss honestly, don't waste my time.
Second, believe whatever you like. I have defended Cal like he was my brother for years on here. Look it up.
I can't defend 1-6. I can't defend his mocking fans. I can't defend his bizarre statements lately about Allen, about letting some players play thru issues and others not.
He chooses this way he's doing things. Sounds dug in by his comments.
1-6 should cause him analyze everything he's doing.

this entire discussion has been about the direction cal is supposedly headed in. Please try to keep up, I shouldn’t have to explain everything to you multiple times.

You’ve been plenty critical of him, saying he needs to change but he won’t, etc. You would have made those exact same statements about Roy when he hit his bad stretch, and you would’ve ended up looking extremely dumb for it.

 

[JoeBolognas]

Thanks for the answer!
I look at things rationally and objectively.
I’ve been watching basketball for a long time. To me it’s not only about not making a final four in soon to be six years.
A sword can cut both ways. It’s a scary thought that Cal didn’t come away with at least one NC out of the 2010 and 2015 teams. Cal likes to brag about all the guys we have in the league and only has one NC to show for that. That’s scary!
When is the last time Cal won a game we had no business winning? Keeping with the sword. When is the last time Cal lost a game we had no business losing?
People want to think Cal can change and adapt! Yet every season except one he‘s been sent home from the NCAA tournament by missed free throws or his team looking as if the word zone didn’t exist in the dictionary! Got his Derrick Rose Memphis team sent home as well!
I wanted Cal as coach! I got mad when BCG was hired over him. But seeing him choke with unmatched talent and seeing the hole he is starting to burrow us into! I realize he really is a very average coach! His offense is boring and outdated! He has one play. It’s called the Go, Go, Go!
I wish he was the coach I thought he was but he’s just not! I’m nervous about how far we will fall under cal now that the best recruits are spread out!

A rational person would realize just how much luck and chance goes into a single elimination tournament, so no, I don’t think it’s “rational” to think it’s “scary” that he didnt win a title with 2010 or 2015. It’s disappointing and will hurt Cal’s final legacy here, but sometimes you win games you’re supposed to lose and sometimes you lose games you’re supposed to win.

A rational person would realize that holding a coach’s talent THAT THEY RECRUITED against them isn’t really an objective view. A part of coaching is recruiting. Cal does that better than any coach we’ve had. Why not just look at his results - which have been extremely good - and stop trying to diminish them by saying he only did it with great players? At the very least, if you’re going to keep trying to throw that in, shouldn’t you also account for the insane lack of experience he’s routinely working with?

I do understand the fear about not landing the top players anymore. That one is fair, but it’s not like we’ve “fallen” completely beyond any success since he stopped landing those top tier recruits. 2016-2020 wasn’t some drastic failure. We still won a lot.

My hope is that he either gets back to landing those top guys or starts returning more good not great players, and I think there’s reason to be optimistic that he’ll do the latter. People think we just never return players here or that this year is the norm, but last year we started three sophomores and a junior. I think it’s very possible we return most of: Askew, Ware, Fletcher, Allen, Brooks, Jackson from this current team. Maybe one leaves early or one transfers, but we should return a solid core, just like we had last year.

 

[glassmanJ]

UK will always find the right fit.

Billy G was the right fit?!?