Brandon Ingram well on his way to being another Duke NBA bust
- Thread starter ~Keyser Soze~
- Start date
Why exactly does he suck? 16, 5, and 4 in his second year on 47/39 shooting is pretty good. He improved in almost every area from his rookie year. What should he be putting up for him not to suck?
Yeah, no clue how that constitutes as sucking. Dude is a baby in the league and already a bust? Stupid argument.
Why isn't that sucking?
First: just posting number doesn't state whether its good or bad. Love that you focus on certain number to try to think it's amazing/good.
Second: His PER is 13.5, who isn't elite at anything....not sure how this constitute as being great/good. Its' one thing being great on a team with a lot of great talent, but he isn't...The team is focused around him..and he still doesn't provide that much efficiency...
Third: Second year player has already shown up. Why people use second year as an excuse as if that's still too early. One's characteristic as a player is already pretty much set. There are of course outlier, but that's a terrible argument if you are arguing that he is an outlier.
Fourth: I will take back the "sucking" part as that's way over dramatic and exaggeration. But he's replaceable piece, what he does is quite common.
FIfth: People need to stop with the whole 47/39 stuff. His TS% was 290th in the league...congrats on being one of the most inefficient scorer in the league.
This was literally the question in my post. Thanks for clearing that up.
Good backing of your argument. Also illustrates why he may never become any kind of star, which some people still think he has the potential to be. And maybe he does, because he is still very young and very green, especially because he didn't come out of a basketball factory type of HS.
I'd say I'm torn on him. You're right that players who are going to be stars usually show signs of it by year 2, but there are notable exceptions. Giannis A only had a 14.9 PER in his 2nd season, and exploded in year 4.
Also, PER isn't very kind to small forward types, or 2 guards, or pretty much any player who plays off the ball and doesn't put up big rebounding and assist numbers. It tends to undervalue those guys a little. This past season, 17 guys listed as centers had PER's above 20, while only 2 listed as small forwards did, and 5 listed as shooting guards.
You can make an argument that someone like Enes Kanter is a more efficient player than someone like Klay Thompson, but you'll have a hard time getting many people to agree that he's actually a better player.
Simple. It's because stating otherwise doesn't support Keyser's strange obsession with insisting all NBA Duke players are busts because they went to Duke. He yammered on through several posts last week pointing out that Jabari Parker was a bust because he hadn't yet been signed in an extremely tight FA market. I wish I could be labelled a bust after signing a $40M deal
![[laughing]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/laugh.r191677.gif "Laughing [laughing]")
. Sometimes the facts just don't support the tantrum.Here’s a good write up from Zach Lowe on what Ingram is, what he could become, and what he’ll need to work on to get there. This was witten just a couple weeks ago went trade rumors were going on about Kawhi.
“But every team needs sustainability, and Ingram has a chance to be really, really good -- a perfect fit alongside LeBron. He entered the league with nice playmaking feel, and built atop that in important ways last season. Ingram hit 39 percent from deep, got to the rim much more often, and drew about five free throws per 36 minutes -- a tidy number for a string bean kiddo.
He sees one pass ahead, and has the patience to get defenders on his hip while he reads the floor. He even developed a handy step-back midranger for such tight predicaments:
If his shooting proves real, watch out. His killer pump-fake -- foul-drawing bait already -- will become more convincing. Defenders won't be able to duck under screens.
Ingram is a good athlete, not a great one. He can struggle blowing by bigger guys on switches. Moves that look like they should work get nowhere:
As he gains strength, defenders won't be able to bump Ingram off pathways to pay dirt. Muscle will help Ingram shoot better than the disgusting 21 percent he put up last season on shots from between 3 and 10 feet out. If he shoots well enough to drag defenders further outside, he'll toast them more easily. Shooting will in effect make Ingram faster and more explosive.
If anything, the Lakers overextended Ingram. He'll thrive as a secondary ball handler next to LeBron, rocketing off screens on the wing, catching passes, and zooming right into a pick-and-roll with a head start. He's a savvy cutter on the baseline and in skulking around the 3-point arc. The Lakers missed him a lot. LeBron won't.”
“But every team needs sustainability, and Ingram has a chance to be really, really good -- a perfect fit alongside LeBron. He entered the league with nice playmaking feel, and built atop that in important ways last season. Ingram hit 39 percent from deep, got to the rim much more often, and drew about five free throws per 36 minutes -- a tidy number for a string bean kiddo.
He sees one pass ahead, and has the patience to get defenders on his hip while he reads the floor. He even developed a handy step-back midranger for such tight predicaments:
If his shooting proves real, watch out. His killer pump-fake -- foul-drawing bait already -- will become more convincing. Defenders won't be able to duck under screens.
Ingram is a good athlete, not a great one. He can struggle blowing by bigger guys on switches. Moves that look like they should work get nowhere:
As he gains strength, defenders won't be able to bump Ingram off pathways to pay dirt. Muscle will help Ingram shoot better than the disgusting 21 percent he put up last season on shots from between 3 and 10 feet out. If he shoots well enough to drag defenders further outside, he'll toast them more easily. Shooting will in effect make Ingram faster and more explosive.
If anything, the Lakers overextended Ingram. He'll thrive as a secondary ball handler next to LeBron, rocketing off screens on the wing, catching passes, and zooming right into a pick-and-roll with a head start. He's a savvy cutter on the baseline and in skulking around the 3-point arc. The Lakers missed him a lot. LeBron won't.”
Dang, I done went and upset the Dookies. Jabari Parker was dubbed the next Lebron James, he was supposed to be a generational talent. He's averaged 15 points a game on a bad team while being a horrific defender. He got paid for at least 1 year by a desperate Chicago team with a ton of money because he's a Chicago guy. Those are facts. Brandon Ingram came off of a poor rookie season and was in the middle of the preseason where he was shooting 8-30 when I posted this.Simple. It's because stating otherwise doesn't support Keyser's strange obsession with insisting all NBA Duke players are busts because they went to Duke. He yammered on through several posts last week pointing out that Jabari Parker was a bust because he hadn't yet been signed in an extremely tight FA market. I wish I could be labelled a bust after signing a $40M deal
This may hurt your feelings, but Duke players overwhelmingly underachieve in the NBA.
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I agree with your comments actually. Kawhi is another example of player who continued to grow beyond 2-3 years. I also don't like to compare to outliers, these two are insane players that its hard to compare and not someone i can expect.
I think PER isn't very friendly to SG who is pegged as a scorer and nothing else. I agree with that, but i am not sure BI would fit in that category, and PER benefits, i think, SF/PF players the best. Which, i think BI is.
Also, Klay Thompson is surrounded by elite players (Two MVP), so his role, we all know, is being minimized. While Kanter isn't playing with elite level player so he can maximize his value. BI's case is more of latter.
But, it's also other values too. I am not basing it just on PER. BPM for BI is negative value. His VORP is only .4. There are many things that points to him being okay. For me, Lonzo is more likely to become a stud than BI.
Player 1 (Career Stats)
12.2 ppg / 4.6 rpg / 2.9 apg / 44% fg / 32% fg3 / 66% FT / 11.0 PER
Player 2 (Career Stats)
9.1 ppg / 5.9 rpg / 1.2 apg / 48% fg / 19% fg3 / 71% FT / 13.7 PER
Both of these players were drafted 2nd overall. Which would you rather have and would you consider both to be busts?
12.2 ppg / 4.6 rpg / 2.9 apg / 44% fg / 32% fg3 / 66% FT / 11.0 PER
Player 2 (Career Stats)
9.1 ppg / 5.9 rpg / 1.2 apg / 48% fg / 19% fg3 / 71% FT / 13.7 PER
Both of these players were drafted 2nd overall. Which would you rather have and would you consider both to be busts?
MKG discussion has already surfaced. And...he is a bust. Not sure why people act like he isn't a bust.
His injury and poor shooting mechanics has killed any opportunity for good growth.
I'd rather have MKG becauseI love MKG and he plays great defense.
MKG underachieving in the NBA doesn't excuse the numerous Duke busts. UK has Anthony Davis, John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Karl Anthony Towns, and Devin Booker who are all All Star level players. You could literally make an All Star level team with UK players. With all the talent that has come through Duke, they have Kyrie.
Would you rather have an All UK NBA team or an All Duke NBA team which would include a Plumlee looking at their players.
MKG as a rookie wasn't a bust. But then, he became a bust. So it does support your argument on Charlotte ruining players.
And Kyrie didn’t even really play for coach K. One game?
Duke has one nba stud right now and it’s a guy that barely played 30 minutes in the entire season.
Ha. Ha.
Hahaha
Ha.
I cant think of a Hornets player that they drafted that developed other than Kemba Walker who's a volume scorer.
They picked...
Emeka Okafor 2nd
Raymond Felton 5th,
Adam Morrison 3rd
Brandan Wright 8th
DJ Augustine 9th
Gerald Henderson 12th
MKG 2nd
Cody Zeller 4th
Noah Vonleh 9th
Frank Kaminsky 9th
These are Charlotte's top picks the last 12 years and I would argue that none have worked out except for Kemba. They are piss poor at development.
That's how bad Duke NBA players are, it's one of the only things we can agree on.
Lonzo shoots to slow to ever be a stud. Now if he defends like crazy and plays excellent defense I don't see why he couldn't be like Rondo. Although he shoots better than rondo ever did this young.
I’d hate to see what you think of MKG then. Ingram has been damn good this past year and is coming into year three. You are he only person that mentions bust and Ingram in the same sentence. NBA minds think he has AllStar potential
16/5/4 on 47/39/68 at age 20 while being one of the youngest players in the league who happened to improve in every single category from his rookie to sophomore seasons, played whatever position the Lakers asked him to play.
The same guy who keeps getting better on a monthly basis, and averaged 19/6/5 on 54/52/78 in the month before getting injured while playing the point guard position for the first time in his NBA career. That same month the Lakers happened to go 7-3 and had their best stretch in years, but then he got injured and they started to go back into losing more then winning?
Maybe you're watching a different Brandon Ingram then I am? Or is it the fact that you can't see past your obvious biases? If you go check his game logs he has been improving his stats on a month to month basis from the start of his rookie season. In his last month playing he was a 19/5/5 guy.
He won't even be 21 until next season, and next season this thread will look even worse. I'll be back to remind you tho.
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. It doesn’t matter to me what any player does after they leave college.
Just call me a crazy College Basketball fan.
Umm, I posted this in 2017 after his poor rookie season after he went 8-30 from the field in preseason. Why are you asking what I'm watching with him improving month to month in 2018? What kinda sense does that make?
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The same kinda sense it makes to post "16/5 on a 35 win team" without providing any type of context on how he's literally been getting better every month and has shown so many different aspects of effecting the game while being one of the youngest players in the league (youngest player of his draft class).
The context is those are ho hum numbers on a bad team. Devin Booker is young and on a bad team too, but he puts up monster numbers.
Well first off look at that list of names. Not more than one or two of them really should have developed. Seriously you can get guys the caliber of Frank Kaminsky and Cody Zeller in the 2nd round.
Booker averaged 22,3 and 3 in his second year. PER of 14.6 Ingram averaged 16,5 and 4. PER of 13.8. All in all, not *that* far apart.
The context is that you're shit at evaluating basketball talent.
Devin Booker at the same age managed to have worst advanced numbers in literally every single category (Offensive rating, Defensive Rating, BPM, Vorp, WS, DBPM etc.) while somehow being on an even shittier 24 win team.
While doing that, he managed to be worse at every single counting statistic (including percentages from all over the field) outside of points per game and free throw %
I'd take 20 year old Booker over Ingram, but that's just to show you how foolish you are with your shit takes. You literally brought up his stats to prove he's bad and then named a player who had worse stats across the board at the same age outside of points per game.
But I guess to a basketball evaluator like you (one that throws around Bust without know what he's talking about) points per game is the only thing that matters.
Maybe you should stick to college basketball.
Welp, we'll see if Ingram gets a max deal like Booker next year. I'm skeptical.
Well Keyser posted a thread trying to make fun of a Duke player being a bust .... calling his shot way premature....... and now that he's wrong... Yeah keyser.. you deserve to get some grief for it...
But then again.... keep on being a giant butt hat that its ok for you to pull up old threads randomly to bash people but when its done to you... oh no... you go whiny little #&(#&!@!. If you cant take it... dont dish it out
But then again.... keep on being a giant butt hat that its ok for you to pull up old threads randomly to bash people but when its done to you... oh no... you go whiny little #&(#&!@!. If you cant take it... dont dish it out
I never claimed to be an evaluator. I'm just a fan who watches a ton of basketball and noticed that Ingram was looking like another bust in a long line of Duke busts.
