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mrschwump said:
60,000+ deaths in 2 months is hardly shifting the goal posts, it is the goal post. Again, name me a contagious disease that takes 2,500 lives a month.

This has nothing to do with the flu, that's just an attempt to confuse the issue.

I don't have an answer on what to do, sure as hell wouldn't be here if I did. Besides...we have a "stable genius" working on that as we speak.
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It's not an attempt to confuse the issue. It's a valid question. If flu level deaths, estimated at 61,000 in 2017-2018, isn't significant, then at what point does the number of deaths become significant? Is 40,000 in two months significant? If so why? If you can't answer why the government should take action to save 60,000 lives over two months but should not take action to save 60,000 lives over 4 months, then you really have no argument. You are just diverting from the underlying question which is when should the government take the kind of drastic action we have seen during this crisis. What criteria constitute a valid reason to shut down society compared to other contagious disease outbreaks where we don't shut down society? You seem to believe this disease meets that criteria but I haven't seen where you have articulated what the criteria should be and why.

You also seem to be reluctant to put a stake in the ground on shutting down society in the future if there is no effective treatment.
 
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cat_in_the_hat said:
It's not an attempt to confuse the issue. It's a valid question. If flu level deaths, estimated at 61,000 in 2017-2018, isn't significant, then at what point does the number of deaths become significant? Is 40,000 in two months significant? If so why? If you can't answer why the government should take action to save 60,000 lives over two months but should not take action to save 60,000 lives over 4 months, then you really have no argument. You are just diverting from the underlying question which is when should the government take the kind of drastic action we have seen during this crisis. What criteria constitute a valid reason to shut down society compared to other contagious disease outbreaks where we don't shut down society? You seem to believe this disease meets that criteria but I haven't seen where you have articulated what the criteria should be and why.

You also seem to be reluctant to put a stake in the ground on shutting down society in the future if there is no effective treatment.
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NBA thought a shut down was necessary. So did MLB and NFL and MLS and NASCAR and Dollywood and Disneyland and Disneyworld, etc, etc, etc Think those people are losing tens/hundreds of million of dollars on a lark? Sure those flu deaths are significant but it has nothing to do with COVID-2019 despite efforts to tie them in by the cult of diversion. Just like death from heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alcohol, tobacco, cancer, etc maters not in this discussion...those aren't diseases passed in contagious circumstances.

I'm done. Some here either don't understand or don't care, mores the pity. But before I go....name me a contagious disease that takes 2,500 lives PER DAY?
 
mrschwump said:
So the life of which Cuomo speaks doesn't matter to you, your tennis game more important? All righty then.

Stock market-1
Grandma-0
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^That's what you took away from what I said? Wow. Way to create a straw man.

That's not what I said and you know it. At no point did I state or indicate that I find human lives unimportant or that COVID deaths aren't tragic. They are, as are all deaths from whatever causes. I said that Cuomo stated that saving one life is worth whatever we have to do, which is remarkably stupid. We should spend a billion dollars to save one life? Or require that all automobiles should be designed like Sherman tanks to avoid any possibility of an auto fatality? Or, every flu season, have a complete shutdown so no one catches the flu and 60,000 people don't die from complications from it? As another poster said, there are plenty of other viruses and causes of death that we could 'save one life' by taking drastic measures, but we haven't. Is a death caused by COVID more tragic than any other cause?

I then, in a completely different paragraph, stated that some of the restrictions enforced by my tennis club are also remarkably stupid. If I believed I was taking a big risk of catching and becoming seriously ill (or infecting someone else), I wouldn't play at all. At least it would be MY choice and not some other person's idea of what is safe and what isn't. And, my playing partners would have the exact same options as me. I thought that was part of being American and enjoying 'freedom'. Obviously, not to just do whatever you want whenever you want to (before you resurrect that straw man) but I should be able to decide for myself what I consider risky behavior and what precautions I should take.

I was in favor of a short, initial shutdown until more information was available. I think it was probably the right thing to do with what we knew at the time. But, more and more data is revealing that further shutdown may do more harm, in total, than good. Eradicating this virus, which may or may not be similar to many other previous viruses, cannot be the sole purpose of America right now. We need to be diligent and cautious and smart about our interactions but they shouldn't have to cease all together until some miracle vaccine is produced, which, by the way, won't 'cure' anything as many people who get the flu shot AND the flu can attest.
 
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mrschwump said:
NBA thought a shut down was necessary. So did MLB and NFL and MLS and NASCAR and Dollywood and Disneyland and Disneyworld, etc, etc, etc Think those people are losing tens/hundreds of million of dollars on a lark? Sure those flu deaths are significant but it has nothing to do with COVID-2019 despite efforts to tie them in by the cult of diversion. Just like death from heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alcohol, tobacco, cancer, etc maters not in this discussion...those aren't diseases passed in contagious circumstances.

I'm done. Some here either don't understand or don't care, mores the pity. But before I go....name me a contagious disease that takes 2,500 lives PER DAY?
Click to expand...
Why do I need to name another disease that kills 2,500 people everyday? How does that answer the question of what the criteria is for shutting down society in order to save lives? Citing what other people think, or do, doesn't really get at the point does it? I'm asking for some critical thinking from you and you seem reluctant to provide any. I don't think anyone has said this isn't serious. The question is the reaction by government and what should be the criteria that would justify such a response. You seem to not get that, or you don't want to get it. I'm not sure which at this point. You have avoided answering any of my direct questions. Why? What are you afraid of? They are very straightforward.

If flu deaths are significant, as you said above, should the government response be the same as for COVID19? If not, why not?
 
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Really focus on protecting the most vulnerable populations and stressing to them that they need to be very careful. That has to be hammered home. They're a stubborn tough group of people who have been through and seen a lot in their time.

As much as I admire the "I've lived through Nam, aids, the cold war, the 70's, recessions, riots, oil embargos, etc...I have COPD, diabetes, a bad hip, grinding knees, a bum shoulder, and a nagging wife (or annoying husband)...I'm not hanging out at the house" I believe that mentality has played somewhat of a role in the death rates we've seen.

The people who are most susceptible, give the least f*cks. They've lived life and they're not too keen on shuttering in when they could very well check out within a few years.

Right now we probably don't need to do anything involving large crowds, travel to and from densely populated areas, and/or abroad.

I wouldn't even entertain school at any level next fall. K-12 and post-secondary are cesspools during good times. I would crank up the online learning and Zoom capabilities and resources. I just don't think most schools have the capability to clean and sterilize everything every day nor can they social distance with 30 kids in a room.

I've also stated in other discussions that there needs to be a cultural change in attitude towards sick leave. From corporate America to mom and pop and throughout the education system. There should be new laws mandating that people get more paid sick time without any kind of guilt or stigma. It should absolutely be mandated if you are for sure sick and have to see a doctor.

With that said, life must go on and the economy at the local, state and small business levels have to start gearing up to get going.
 
trueblujr2 said:
Nobody has to die. If you’re in an at risk group stay home and watch on TV. That being said, Football and basketball is played in the heart of flu season, people still go to games and sit next to strangers. People get the flu and yeah some might even die from it but it’s a risk they decided to take when going.

Has anybody done a death count on all the millions of people who attended sporting events January through mid March?
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I get a flu shot every year, I have a medicine cabinet with Thera-flu, Nyquil, and DayQuil, as well as assorted NSAIDS, will you tell me where I can go get a vaccination or medicine for Covid-19?
 
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mrschwump said:
NBA thought a shut down was necessary. So did MLB and NFL and MLS and NASCAR and Dollywood and Disneyland and Disneyworld, etc, etc, etc Think those people are losing tens/hundreds of million of dollars on a lark? Sure those flu deaths are significant but it has nothing to do with COVID-2019 despite efforts to tie them in by the cult of diversion. Just like death from heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alcohol, tobacco, cancer, etc maters not in this discussion...those aren't diseases passed in contagious circumstances.

I'm done. Some here either don't understand or don't care, mores the pity. But before I go....name me a contagious disease that takes 2,500 lives PER DAY?
Click to expand...

Before you go....name me an annual health condition in the US that causes 50K deaths.
 
cat_in_the_hat said:
Why do I need to name another disease that kills 2,500 people everyday? How does that answer the question of what the criteria is for shutting down society in order to save lives? Citing what other people think, or do, doesn't really get at the point does it? I'm asking for some critical thinking from you and you seem reluctant to provide any. I don't think anyone has said this isn't serious. The question is the reaction by government and what should be the criteria that would justify such a response. You seem to not get that, or you don't want to get it. I'm not sure which at this point. You have avoided answering any of my direct questions. Why? What are you afraid of? They are very straightforward.

If flu deaths are significant, as you said above, should the government response be the same as for COVID19? If not, why not?
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I've given you critical thinking in spades, you've chosen to ignore it. And you want a reaction by government? Our government? The people who sat on their dead asses for 6-8 weeks and whose delays brought this crisis to this point? The result is 2,500+ dead per day. Just continue to minimize and distract and let the deaths mount. I'm still hopeful science can bring this to a close, we'll see.
 
Levibooty said:
I get a flu shot every year, I have a medicine cabinet with Thera-flu, Nyquil, and DayQuil, as well as assorted NSAIDS, will you tell me where I can go get a vaccination or medicine for Covid-19?
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Do you understand that the flu vaccine is based on an guess of the strain of flu they expect. Often they are wrong. Also the medicines you listed do not fight the virus. They attempt to ease symptoms.
 
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mrschwump said:
I've given you critical thinking in spades, you've chosen to ignore it. And you want a reaction by government? Our government? The people who sat on their dead asses for 6-8 weeks and whose delays brought this crisis to this point? The result is 2,500+ dead per day. Just continue to minimize and distract and let the deaths mount. I'm still hopeful science can bring this to a close, we'll see.
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What critical thinking have you provided? Please direct me to the post. I am anxious to read it.
 
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WildcatofNati said:
It's slightly more complex than that, but, since you want to engage in soundbites, here's one for you, based on UN reports that the devastation to the world economy, caused by lockdowns, will ultimately result in a probable increase of up to 68 million children living in poverty and worldwide food shortages:

Facebook virtue signalers with "no skin in the game", who are not losing a dime from the catastrophic consequences of this shutdown: 1. (Out of curiosity, do you have any "skin in the game" here? Are you suddenly unable to provide for your small children, while your business is producing zero income here? I know quite a few in that very situation, both owners and employees).

Impoverished children all across the world: 0.

By the way, if "it only saves one life" is our standard for public policy, I submit that it's time to completely ban tobacco and alcohol, shutdown the airports, and reduce the Interstate speed limit to 15 mph and limit the use of the Interstates to emergency use only. If I had more time, I could come up with a thousand other proposals to save that life.
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Sounds like those poor ranchers with herds infected with hoof and mouth disease.
 
cat_in_the_hat said:
I don't think your point really addresses his, but to follow your logic, there are other contagious diseases that kill thousands of people every year in this country and we don't shut down society to try and prevent those deaths. Are those lives less important than those taken by COVID19? Are you suggesting that if no effective treatment can be found that we shut down society every year upon the return of this virus?
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This is a false analogy. Name your contagion that kills thousands every year that has no treatment or vaccine, a contagion that its only known defense is social distancing.
 
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cat_in_the_hat said:
Do you understand that the flu vaccine is based on an guess of the strain of flu they expect. Often they are wrong. Also the medicines you listed do not fight the virus. They attempt to ease symptoms.
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You are avoiding my question.
 
Trekster said:
There's no vaccine for the flu.....
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Well this was easy:
Flu vaccines are available either as: a trivalent or quadrivalent intramuscular injection (IIV3, IIV4, or RIV4, that is, TIV or QIV), which contains the inactivated form of the virus. a nasal spray of live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV, Q/LAIV), which contains the live but attenuated (weakened) form of the virus.
 
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cat_in_the_hat said:
What critical thinking have you provided? Please direct me to the post. I am anxious to read it.
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1M cases, 60,000+ deaths in 2 months at 2,500 per day is damned critical thinking. If you can't wrap your mind around that, that's on you.
 
Levibooty said:
Well this was easy:
Flu vaccines are available either as: a trivalent or quadrivalent intramuscular injection (IIV3, IIV4, or RIV4, that is, TIV or QIV), which contains the inactivated form of the virus. a nasal spray of live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV, Q/LAIV), which contains the live but attenuated (weakened) form of the virus.
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But 50K die every year in the US.... wrap your head around that
 
Levibooty said:
This is a false analogy. Name your contagion that kills thousands every year that has no treatment or vaccine, a contagion that its only known defense is social distancing.
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It’s not a false analogy. I have already answered your question in another post because it was asked by another poster. The underlying question is what criteria justifies this reaction from government. In order to answer that question, we have to examine why we don’t respond this way for a virus that killed 61,000 people in 2017/2018. Just because you don’t understand the issue doesn’t mean it’s a false analogy. Feel free to answer the questions I have already posted.
 
gamecockcat said:
^That's what you took away from what I said? Wow. Way to create a straw man.

That's not what I said and you know it. At no point did I state or indicate that I find human lives unimportant or that COVID deaths aren't tragic. They are, as are all deaths from whatever causes. I said that Cuomo stated that saving one life is worth whatever we have to do, which is remarkably stupid. We should spend a billion dollars to save one life? Or require that all automobiles should be designed like Sherman tanks to avoid any possibility of an auto fatality? Or, every flu season, have a complete shutdown so no one catches the flu and 60,000 people don't die from complications from it? As another poster said, there are plenty of other viruses and causes of death that we could 'save one life' by taking drastic measures, but we haven't. Is a death caused by COVID more tragic than any other cause?

I then, in a completely different paragraph, stated that some of the restrictions enforced by my tennis club are also remarkably stupid. If I believed I was taking a big risk of catching and becoming seriously ill (or infecting someone else), I wouldn't play at all. At least it would be MY choice and not some other person's idea of what is safe and what isn't. And, my playing partners would have the exact same options as me. I thought that was part of being American and enjoying 'freedom'. Obviously, not to just do whatever you want whenever you want to (before you resurrect that straw man) but I should be able to decide for myself what I consider risky behavior and what precautions I should take.

I was in favor of a short, initial shutdown until more information was available. I think it was probably the right thing to do with what we knew at the time. But, more and more data is revealing that further shutdown may do more harm, in total, than good. Eradicating this virus, which may or may not be similar to many other previous viruses, cannot be the sole purpose of America right now. We need to be diligent and cautious and smart about our interactions but they shouldn't have to cease all together until some miracle vaccine is produced, which, by the way, won't 'cure' anything as many people who get the flu shot AND the flu can attest.
Click to expand...
FeistyKlutzyBeaver-size_restricted.gif
 
tmuck said:
Only temporary. You know alot more people are gonna get infected and spread it at places like church, factories, retail, etc the next few months. Everything's gonna get shutdown all over again when it starts to spread like wildfire. Same things gonna happen in the Fall and Winter. Rinse repeat until there's a vaccine.
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I really hope you are wrong.
 
gamecockcat said:
^That's what you took away from what I said? Wow. Way to create a straw man.

That's not what I said and you know it. At no point did I state or indicate that I find human lives unimportant or that COVID deaths aren't tragic. They are, as are all deaths from whatever causes. I said that Cuomo stated that saving one life is worth whatever we have to do, which is remarkably stupid. We should spend a billion dollars to save one life? Or require that all automobiles should be designed like Sherman tanks to avoid any possibility of an auto fatality? Or, every flu season, have a complete shutdown so no one catches the flu and 60,000 people don't die from complications from it? As another poster said, there are plenty of other viruses and causes of death that we could 'save one life' by taking drastic measures, but we haven't. Is a death caused by COVID more tragic than any other cause?

I then, in a completely different paragraph, stated that some of the restrictions enforced by my tennis club are also remarkably stupid. If I believed I was taking a big risk of catching and becoming seriously ill (or infecting someone else), I wouldn't play at all. At least it would be MY choice and not some other person's idea of what is safe and what isn't. And, my playing partners would have the exact same options as me. I thought that was part of being American and enjoying 'freedom'. Obviously, not to just do whatever you want whenever you want to (before you resurrect that straw man) but I should be able to decide for myself what I consider risky behavior and what precautions I should take.

I was in favor of a short, initial shutdown until more information was available. I think it was probably the right thing to do with what we knew at the time. But, more and more data is revealing that further shutdown may do more harm, in total, than good. Eradicating this virus, which may or may not be similar to many other previous viruses, cannot be the sole purpose of America right now. We need to be diligent and cautious and smart about our interactions but they shouldn't have to cease all together until some miracle vaccine is produced, which, by the way, won't 'cure' anything as many people who get the flu shot AND the flu can attest.
Click to expand...
one life isn’t important? What if it is your life? What’s that worth? Or your moms? Your grandmother?

we aren’t all playing with house money on this one...

we had a 17 year old without any apparent preconditions recently. However, a 96 year old survived.
 
Levibooty said:
As has been pointed out Beshear was far ahead of most governors in handling the threat. Hell I even got phone calls from my republican family in Michigan speaking highly of Beshear. That goes to prove it could have been handled much better all across the country. It would have been even better here in Kentucky if more people took it seriously and did as asked by Beshear to handle the virus. It's almost like people still don't grasp that flattening the curve has nothing to do with the number of deaths per se and everything to do with not overwhelming medical institutions to the point of exhausting all ability to help people who are infected. It is for the most part a maneuver to slow the spread and to buy scientists time to develop some means of treating this virus.
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Wrong...beshear did not do anything until Ohio governor establish guidelines. Beshear is not a leader he is a follower
 
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Dncmaxwell said:
one life isn’t important? What if it is your life? What’s that worth? Or your moms? Your grandmother?

we aren’t all playing with house money on this one...

we had a 17 year old without any apparent preconditions recently. However, a 96 year old survived.
Click to expand...
My mom could just as easily die in an automobile accident. Let's ban automobiles. 68 million children in the world are at a higher risk of poverty due to lockdowns, and I think it is safe to say that more than one child will die as a result of the poverty. Let's ban lockdowns.

I was being sarcastic when I argued for banning automobiles, for the record.
 
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cat_in_the_hat said:
I didn't ignore and divert. I addressed it head on. You ignored and diverted from my questions. They were very straightforward and used your own comments. Why are the lives of those taken by COVID19 more important than those taken by other contagious diseases? You are the one who used contagious disease as a distinguishing criteria. If it could save lives, why aren't we shutting down society when other contagious diseases spread across our landscape?

You also didn't address what we should do if an effective treatment can't be found and the virus returns annually. What would you propose we do?
Click to expand...
60,000 deaths in two months with unprecedented restrictions on the entire U.S. population. We had to shut it down to get a grip on the spread and give everyone a chance to adjust to this virus. It's unbelievable that some people just don't get it.
It is a brand new virus to mankind.
It is highly contagious.
It has no proven treatment.
It has no proven vaccine.
It can be deadly.
Semi trucks were called in to handle bodies of the dead in NYC.
Mass burials were necessary.
Drs and nurses were reusing PPE due to shortages.
Some states were hit harder than others but ALL states were hit.
The entire world was effected and shut down.

I seriously question the IQ of people who act like shutting down the state was wrong despite all the facts and info before them.
Do we need to start opening up? Of course....but it has to be done logically or many more will die than necessary. This has only just begun unfortunately.
 
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Dncmaxwell said:
If 60,000 are dead with social distancing, it is safe to say the number would be far higher without it...
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It's safe that the numbers would be higher if we were still packing sports arenas at this point in time. There are different levels of "social distancing". Arkansas has much lower level of required social distancing than does Kentucky, and has a per capita death rate of about half of that of Kentucky's. South Dakota has a much lower level than even Arkansas in terms of social distancing and had 13 total deaths in the whole state as of yesterday. Sweden has, by far, the lowest level of required social distancing in Europe (outside of Belarus, which is just "letting 'er rip), and is doing better than most of Western Europe. Belarus, if the numbers can be believed, if barely touched at all.
 
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