$15 dollar hr minimum wage?

[Surewhatever]

Essentially true, but it was also created just prior to a time when we became a manufacturing giant. We don't have those jobs anymore to support the population with a good living. Something has to give. I think Andrew Yang has been on the right path with the UBI, but I'm not exactly sure how we pull that off.

It's been an interesting discussion for the most part. I'm curious, for some of you who are well-versed on it, if a min wage increase is not a good solution, what would you propose?

Yay! Every adult in the United States gets enough money to allow an income of at least fifty thousand dollars for year. Since we are a free country there are no restrictions on how the money is spent. People blow through the money on junk not the necessities of life. There is now an outcry for the government to increase the UBI to $75,000 because $50,000 isn't enough.

Oh yeah, there is nice fat bit of inflation so that cheese burger at McD's is now $20.

Watch Saturday Night Live Highlight: Jimmy Carter on Inflation Cold Open - NBC.com

 

[CB3UK]

What jobs even pay min wage anymore? Even McDonald's starts at $10.

 

[BMoore2]

F.D.R. Makes the Case for the Minimum Wage

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

Several problems...small local businesses i shouldn't even have to explain this.

Low skill work is low pay for a reason. If a 16 yr old can do the job, I think the question you should ask yourself if you're middle aged is why you haven't built a resume of experience or gained any skills.

Since ppl mostly focus on fast food ill just put this one at rest too. "McDonald's is worth billions, can't they pay more?" Well no, each location, like most fast food, is individually franchised. That person or persons likely isn't worth even millions. Revenues say an individual mcdonalds makes a 6 cent profit on every dollar it brings in....so that's after wages, bills, food costs, etc. Basically double the wage and you're cutting way into that 6 cents. And its not as easy as raising the menu price...or they would have already done that to begin with. Then locations aren't even profitable...so whats the point of existing? Here's your solution...doesn't mcdonalds offer a tuition program? Quit bouncing around and utilize it. Gain skills. They raised the tuition program from 700 dollars to like 3000 a year after the 2017 tax cuts bc corporate tax lowered (when all the libs cried ppl were getting richer). So learn a f'n trade at a technical school.

Oh and wear a f'n condom and stop having 5 kids if you can't afford them

 

[jauk11]

Your 401k is about to worth a lot less.

There is a much bigger problem for a lot of people, those relying on SS, most raises the last decade or so have been around ONE percent, current raise just out is 1.3%. Seems it is based on the price of gas or some such bullshit which has stayed relatively stable.

 

[BMoore2]

UKBrassowinTN,
As I mentioned earlier, noone’s really proposing we raise the value of what McDonald’s workers are getting paid; we’re saying when the minimum wage was introduced, it was capable of paying the bills. Since that minimum wage is no longer worth the same amount, it’s tantamount to lowering the minimum wage.
That stuff should always be based on what the actual value of the labor is and not how hard the job is to do. Corporations get away with it bc they can, not bc it is right.

 

[Bigblue2023]

This will be another comical disaster to watch. It will be slow and people will die by a thousand cuts. There won't be some massive event where millions of jobs are cut, but businesses will absolutely begin investing in alternative means to conduct business. Then we'll wake up in 5 years and wonder why all of the previous minimum wage workers are unemployed drawing a gov't check.

I also predict gov't will never blame it on the actual cause, which is pricing minimum wage workers out of the market. It will be racism or sexism or some other ism.

Same is true of our corporate tax structure. In 10 years when we have shipped off a huge number of jobs overseas, the gov't will love to talk about how they are just bad people, instead of the fact the US is not cost competitive from a tax standpoint.

 

[Rex Kwon Do]

For everyone else reading this....since these guys skipped my post:

DO YOU SEE WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT? Janitors don’t make minimum wage. Mine start at $12 in KY with a very low cost of living nationally. And no don’t “graduate w a janitorial doctorate” but again as I stated some are making $18 currently.

WHO IS MAKING MINIMUM WAGE? PLEASE LINK.

I swear, otherwise good intentioned people just have this fictional janitor in their minds working exactly 40 hours on minimum wage going home to a (non working) wife and three kids, struggling for food, no smartphone, no flat panel etc.....this person does not exist. I’m not saying life is all roses for my folks...and there are a lot of reasons for that....but it’s not exactly what y’all are suggesting.

Some of y’all are arguing a premise that literally doesn’t exist making the “solving” of the problem quite difficult.

 

[goukcatsgo]

There are pockets of this in some areas. In other areas, there are not. You can make an argument for our population needing to be a bit more mobile to address that, but it's absolutely true that we have significantly less manufacturing jobs here now than we did from, say, 1940-1980. These opportunities are not available nationwide like they once were.

I’ll say it. Might not be popular, but there is A pocket. The heart of southeast Ky. That’s really it. Everywhere else in KY is a 45 minute - hour drive from good jobs. A near endless supply of them. But people don’t want to evolve with the times. The days of every town having one big, manor employer or coal mines are gone.

most of Kentucky has more manufacturing jobs than they did in the 80’s. Most of the south does.

the only minimum wage jobs in our town are fast food jobs. And the crappiest of those have to pay $10 an hour. (McDonald’s). Chic fil a pays minimum wage to their night and weekend shifts because they can actually get high school kids at night and on the weekends.

 

[Lexie's Dad]

I'm using "utilities" there in a broad sense, probably a much wider definition than you may have in the biz. Not just electricity. Part of the big picture with that other stuff. I'll defer to your expertise on the matter.

According to the CPI, cost of living has increased by 99% since 1990, basically doubled in 30 years and reflecting an average of 2.4% (using the Rule of 72).

More importantly, the median real (inflation adjusted) wage has increased 7% since 1990. Reflecting that the median worker has 7% more purchasing as compared to 1990.

 

[trueblujr2]

Essentially true, but it was also created just prior to a time when we became a manufacturing giant. We don't have those jobs anymore to support the population with a good living. Something has to give. I think Andrew Yang has been on the right path with the UBI, but I'm not exactly sure how we pull that off.

It's been an interesting discussion for the most part. I'm curious, for some of you who are well-versed on it, if a min wage increase is not a good solution, what would you propose?

if a UBI is implemented, and you now have the government sending everyone $1000 dollars a month or whatever the amount ends up being, what's the cutoff point for who receives that UBI? What is the recipient's motivation to work if the UBI is providing for basic needs and they're content with that? How is it taxed? who exactly is paying that UBI? The answer is those who don't qualify for a UBI will be paying for those that do through higher taxes. And that's where you have the battle, Why should those who work and earn be paying for those unwilling to work and earn?

Second, who does a UBI make you beholden to? The answer is the Government. and when they have that dangling over your head, what's stopping them from using that UBI as a carrot to strip away other rights and wield more control over you as a citizen. Your freedoms and liberties become fewer.

Regarding the Min. Wage. I work for a large restaurant franchisee with units all over the country. We have largely avoided going the kiosk route because we prefer human customer interaction. There are kiosk programs for the largest restaurant chain we franchise, but we have yet to implement them in any of those close to 200 units. If a $15 min. wage is implemented, i'm sure that will change.

As it is now, virtually no one is paying the federal min. wage. Wages have grown organically through the free market. Most 15-16 year old teenagers starting out in their first job at a fast food restaurant is making $9-$10 per hour. I would know this first hand. More experienced workers, kids with a couple of years working in the industry, can earn $11-$13 per hour. a nice wage for college students working part time. pre-pandemic, wages were raising organically because of the free market, the need for workers and primarily the competition for workers. That will continue as restaurants try to recover. If you just blanket raise the Min. Wage to $15 at this time, without a phased in program to get to that point over a period of time, even more restaurants will close, The company I work for will likely have to shutter or sell off a number of our units, and implement kiosks where we can. That could directly impact my job as well, because it would reduce the amounts we have to invest in remodels and new builds, which is what I'm in charge of.

 

[BlueBallz]

if a UBI is implemented, and you now have the government sending everyone $1000 dollars a month or whatever the amount ends up being, what's the cutoff point for who receives that UBI? What is the recipient's motivation to work if the UBI is providing for basic needs and they're content with that? How is it taxed? who exactly is paying that UBI? The answer is those who don't qualify for a UBI will be paying for those that do through higher taxes. And that's where you have the battle, Why should those who work and earn be paying for those unwilling to work and earn?

Second, who does a UBI make you beholden to? The answer is the Government. and when they have that dangling over your head, what's stopping them from using that UBI as a carrot to strip away other rights and wield more control over you as a citizen. Your freedoms and liberties become fewer.

Regarding the Min. Wage. I work for a large restaurant franchisee with units all over the country. We have largely avoided going the kiosk route because we prefer human customer interaction. There are kiosk programs for the largest restaurant chain we franchise, but we have yet to implement them in any of those close to 200 units. If a $15 min. wage is implemented, i'm sure that will change.

As it is now, virtually no one is paying the federal min. wage. Wages have grown organically through the free market. Most 15-16 year old teenagers starting out in their first job at a fast food restaurant is making $9-$10 per hour. I would know this first hand. More experienced workers, kids with a couple of years working in the industry, can earn $11-$13 per hour. a nice wage for college students working part time. pre-pandemic, wages were raising organically because of the free market, the need for workers and primarily the competition for workers. That will continue as restaurants try to recover. If you just blanket raise the Min. Wage to $15 at this time, without a phased in program to get to that point over a period of time, even more restaurants will close, The company I work for will likely have to shutter or sell off a number of our units, and implement kiosks where we can. That could directly impact my job as well, because it would reduce the amounts we have to invest in remodels and new builds, which is what I'm in charge of.

As a consumer, I'm perfectly happy having less human interaction and prefer it. I just want to walk in, get my food and leave. I don't need to stand in a 2-4 deep line to say "I want a #2". I use apps where I can so I can walk in, get it and leave. The same with the restaurants, I can order from the table, then just have someone bring the food and fill drinks without the extended conversations. If they add servers to the $15/hr wage, watch their tips go bye bye. I was a server and always made well over standard min wage (usually at least double) and I doubt any server worth a grain of salt would want that.

 

[Deeeefense]

I’m not trying to be difficult, but why does there have to be a solution? Why is every societal problem something that government should attempt to address? I say that because we are supposed to live in a society that protects individual liberty. Government can’t aggressively engineer society without stripping away the rights of individuals. In a society that is supposed to value and protect individual liberty, shouldn’t it be up to the individual to address his or her financial situation. Why is it the role of government to address it? I would also argue that if government is involved in helping people with their financial situation, it’s more appropriate that it be state or local government because that preserves more liberty than when the federal government does it. Personally, I think in a free society it should be the individuals responsibility and if additional help is needed that should come from charity.

I don't think it is an infringement on the rights or freedoms of individuals to require employers to pay full time adult workers a basic minimum wage, any more than laws that address worker safety and environmental safety. Laws like that are designed to prevent abuses.

I do agree with you that state and local governments should have the primary roll in setting wage standards, but the Federal government should set the rock bottom minimum based on the lowest cost of living area(s).

 

[BMoore2]

We see what happens when we let big business be big business and don’t require them to do the right thing. They don’t do anything they don’t have to.

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

I don't think it is an infringement on the rights or freedoms of individuals to require employers to pay full time adult workers a basic minimum wage, any more than laws that address worker safety and environmental safety. Laws like that are designed to prevent abuses.

I do agree with you that state and local governments should have the primary roll in setting wage standards, but the Federal government should set the rock bottom minimum based on the lowest cost of living area(s).

I always enjoy your comments, even when we disagree. Unlike some on this board, we can actually have a discussion and I appreciate that.

My disagreement with you is that setting the price of any good service strips away the rights of the people selling that good or service and buying that good or service to sell or pay something lower. If a person is willing to sell his labor for something less than $15 so he has work, and someone is willing to buy it at that price, why should the government be able to make it illegal. I would ask the same question of any other good or service. If it's prudent for government to set minimum prices for labor, why not for other goods and services?

 

[Deeeefense]

I always enjoy your comments, even when we disagree. Unlike some on this board, we can actually have a discussion and I appreciate that.

Milton Freidman vs. John Kenneth Galbraith 😋

My disagreement with you is that setting the price of any good service strips away the rights of the people selling that good or service and buying that good or service to sell or pay something lower.

I simply have a philosophical difference with you there, while I agree with you on opposition to government regulation of prices for goods or services, I don't think a citizen's employment should be categorized the same way as selling a good or a service. The history books are full of worker abuses before laws we're put in place to provide some basic protections.

 

[goukcatsgo]

Milton Freidman vs. John Kenneth Galbraith 😋



I simply have a philosophical difference with you there, while I agree with you on opposition to government regulation of prices for goods or services, I don't think a citizen's employment should be categorized the same way as selling a good or a service. The history books are full of worker abuses before laws we're put in place to provide some basic protections.

the market handles wages just fine. As has been proven continuously in this thread.

 

[Deeeefense]

the market handles wages just fine. As has been proven continuously in this thread.

I agree that the market does in fact adjust to wage/cost of living issues in most cases but there are always outliers.

Most people can keep a car on the road with out any assistance, but we still put guard rails up in some spots just in case.

 

[goukcatsgo]

I agree that the market does in fact adjust to wage/cost of living issues in most cases but there are always outliers.

Most people can keep a car on the road with out any assistance, but we still put guard rails up in some spots just in case.

thats an oversimplified analogy. $15 per hour is absurd for an entry level burger flipper. This is nothing more than a political play by uncle joe

 

[Deeeefense]

$15 per hour is absurd for an entry level burger flipper.

I'm on record in this thread with agreeing with that.

 

[goukcatsgo]

I'm on record in this thread with agreeing with that.

respectfully, what’s your point? That sometimes
Government intervention is needed? Sure. Sometimes. But not in a doubling of the minimum wage when we see wages outpacing COLA.

 

[Deeeefense]

respectfully, what’s your point? That sometimes
Government intervention is needed? Sure. Sometimes. But not in a doubling of the minimum wage when we see wages outpacing COLA.

My point is the $15 is nothing more than a talking point, there is nothing set in stone around that number. Conservative estimates using the cost of living since 1999 when it was last raised is about $8.70/hr.

 

[Jeff Drummond]

Heard someone call into a radio program today suggesting an incremental increase is the way to go. Phase it over time. I think most reasonable people can agree that shooting directly to $15 would be difficult on a lot of smaller businesses and present some challenges/dangers.

 

[BlueBallz]

Heard someone call into a radio program today suggesting an incremental increase is the way to go. Phase it over time. I think most reasonable people can agree that shooting directly to $15 would be difficult on a lot of smaller businesses and present some challenges/dangers.

I think generally that's approach in the past. Now you have Pelosi, Schumer and Kamala running the legislation, so when you say, "most reasonable people", that's not going to be the leadership driving this.

 

[Jeff Drummond]

I think generally that's approach in the past. Now you have Pelosi, Schumer and Kamala running the legislation, so when you say, "most reasonable people", that's not going to be the leadership driving this.

Maybe so. I’m just not going to get into the politics of it. I’m exhausted from that stuff.

 

[awf]

View embedded media

I thought that the Dems were supposed to be looking out for the bottom folks.......it is OK for them if it only causes a few of your poor b'tards to starve.....keep voting for them........you get what you voted for......Trump was finding ways to get you dumb b'tards jobs........not sacrificing a few so you could get a raise......

 

[awf]

This has nothing to do with minimum wage but it is something that has always annoyed the crap out of me. I've spent most of my adult life working 2 jobs. And I've been broke as crap for most of it. My economic situation is entirely my fault, so don't think I'm blaming anyone. Now my 2nd job is one day a week, and it's only to keep my hotel discount.

But I have known SO MANY PEOPLE that barely work. Don't show up half the time, and when they do show up they half ass it. And somehow these people ALWAYS have money. They may complain about being broke but then go on vacation, or come into work with brand new $150 shoes. Where the crap is this money coming from?

I've worked with people that I know for a fact make the same amount of money as me that can somehow afford to live a lifestyle I couldn't even pretend to

Aren't credit cards wonderful.......

 

[WildcatFan1982]

If I didn't fall into that trap my credit score wouldn't be awful

 

[awf]

We have a guy at work that constantly complains about not making enough money. Yesterday morning I asked about his weekend, and he said pretty good except he lost $800 at Derby City Gaming.
Again, making good decisions with your money far outweigh what you are making.

My grandfather who had a third grade education explained it to me like this.......It doesn't matter how much you are making........it's how much you are living on.......

 

[awf]

Maybe so. I’m just not going to get into the politics of it. I’m exhausted from that stuff.

And that sir is how their change is getting through.....they argue until you "get exhausted"....then it is game, set, match....the changes in this country are far too serious to just observe and discuss for a few months each fall.......

 

[BlueBallz]

I thought that the Dems were supposed to be looking out for the bottom folks.......it is OK for them if it only causes a few of your poor b'tards to starve.....keep voting for them........you get what you voted for......Trump was finding ways to get you dumb b'tards jobs........not sacrificing a few so you could get a raise......

My brother put it best "People love that free sh*t", even though it's not really free. I have a nephew who is 26, has had one job that lasted a few months and lives with his parents and getting the stimulus money. My niece, who is actually very responsible, voted for Biden on the sole reason to wipe out what's left of her student loan of $10k. The national debt is in a crazy downward spiral and there's nothing, realistically, that can be done about it.

 

[awf]

If I didn't fall into that trap my credit score wouldn't be awful

My credit score is getting dinged because we are not using enough credit........I never had credit cards until my job gave me one in the mid 90's.........when we started traveling overseas to see the grand kids we got two credit cards......we pay almost everything on the one card because of cash back.......they are wonderful tools if you can pay them off every month.........otherwise they just keep you down......

 

[WildcatFan1982]

they are wonderful tools if you can pay them off every month.........otherwise they just keep you down......

yep. Found that out the hard way. Entirely my fault. Dumb dumb dumb.

Meanwhile, I had a grandpa that was a barber in Sebree, KY. When he retired in the 90s he was only charging like $5 for a haircut. Only took out one loan in his entire life, and that was the house he and my Granny bought in 1948. Paid cash for literally everything he purchased after that.

 

[awf]

Or look at situations where its raised and what happens. You don't need studies when you have historical fact.

On the whole it has a negative economic.

but it just affects a few people.....it is minimal...........the left is so full of sheet.........

 

[Kentuckynerd]

Won't be anyone to tip, already don't have a cashier at Wal-mart.

 

[awf]

A few thoughts:

-If minimum wage jobs are for teenagers entering the workforce, who is serving your Big Mac at noon when school is in session?

Further, just how many 16-18 year olds do you think are in the workforce? There's a minimum wage job every ten feet. It's simply not sustainable to only hire high school kids and people starting out. You talk about businesses closing, restrict all of those places to only hiring the people you think work there and see how many are open tomorrow.

-McDonalds CEO was paid $1.2 million, plus a $1.4 million bonus in 2001, plus stock options. In 2019, the same position paid over $18 million dollars. Have Big Macs gotten more expensive since 2001? Has minimum wage changed? Is the CEO doing a 10x better job or working 10x more hours than he was in 2001?

-If you're frustrated by people choosing not to work, it seems a job paying more than $290/week before taxes might encourage that. Why would you work 40 hours at a miserable job to still be broke when you can be broke and not work? All of these stories about working three jobs to be lower middle class doesn't make the character statement you think it does.

-Maybe consider that some people might find it advantageous that you're mad at the guy next door on food stamps that costs you twenty cents per check so that you don't notice that the Walton's increase their wealth by $70,000 per second (that's a real number). And will charge you extra for paper towels and blame it on having to give their workers an extra dime.

Why are you people so jealous of people who are getting rich? You have hit the magic button....."why work when you can make more sitting at home"...........Oh, I don't know.......maybe a little personal pride.......but if you keep taking money from the guy that is working so the guy that isn't working can feel good about his worthless ass there are going to be many more people with their hand out.......I worked two jobs for a long time.......it didn't say anthing about my character other than I had enough pride to do what I had to do to take care of my family......I wish I could have went to vet school......sure would have been an easier path than the one I choose........I still made out OK.........construction is a hard racket to advance in.......you have to work your way to the top.......these people have been taught that everything is a blue ribbon.......it isn't.....if flipping burgers isn't going to get you there then you have options........get a 2nd job...........learn a trade........only one holding anyone back in this country is themselves,......

 

[BlueBallz]

My credit score is getting dinged because we are not using enough credit........I never had credit cards until my job gave me one in the mid 90's.........when we started traveling overseas to see the grand kids we got two credit cards......we pay almost everything on the one card because of cash back.......they are wonderful tools if you can pay them off every month.........otherwise they just keep you down......

Without sidetracking all the min wage banter (which I love talking about), the whole credit card, debt, scores, getting out of debt, etc, is another topic I like. One of the key factors on a credit score is utilization, which you want to keep under 15%. Once you go over that, you might to see it decline. The other obvious thing is just paying on time. The only debt I have is 3 credit cards, one primary, a retail (hardly ever used) and what used to be a business card, which is barely used now since I don't travel. My score is always over 800.

 

[awf]

There are pockets of this in some areas. In other areas, there are not. You can make an argument for our population needing to be a bit more mobile to address that, but it's absolutely true that we have significantly less manufacturing jobs here now than we did from, say, 1940-1980. These opportunities are not available nationwide like they once were.

And the Democrats have cheated out of office the first president in quite a long time to bring manufacturing jobs back to the US........no doubt his policies would have brought back more in the next four years.........Our politicians (both sides) have sent our jobs over seas......and your dates are disingenuous......NAFTA did more harm to this country than any other policy since Johnson's, Great Society........It was so bad that they threw a small biscuit out to some of the people who lost their jobs.......they sadly didn't provide enough money so that all those displaced workers....could get retrained.......

 

[awf]

How many people working minimum wage jobs do you think are going to “graduate” to something better? You think a janitor is going to get his doctorate in the custodial arts?

You don't graduate to something better......you either work your way up......or find something that will pay you more for your skills........

 

[awf]

yep. Found that out the hard way. Entirely my fault. Dumb dumb dumb.

Meanwhile, I had a grandpa that was a barber in Sebree, KY. When he retired in the 90s he was only charging like $5 for a haircut. Only took out one loan in his entire life, and that was the house he and my Granny bought in 1948. Paid cash for literally everything he purchased after that.

interest on purchases is just a penance you pay for not having the discipline to wait till you can afford something......