Why does the state of Kentucky produce so few NBA players?

[mktmaker]

Yes, I know that Kentucky has a modest population with small metropolitan areas. But that was also the case in the 1960's and 1970's when we sent players to the pro's every couple of years.

When I grew up the state of Kentucky frequently produced players who were successful in the NBA.

I graduated from Kentucky. I left Kentucky before I was 30.

So I do not know Kentucky high school basketball as I once did. [The most recent Kentucky state tournament I saw in person was in 1979 when Lafayette (Dirk Minniefield, et al) won.]

By that time, Kentucky high schools were producing dramatically less elite basketball talent.


(Most of the following -- with the exception of the NBA careers -- is just from memory. So please be gentle with your corrections. I am sure I left out some players.)

(Also, I am noting people from Kentucky who were successful as American professional players.)

I know a lot about earlier greats like Ralph Beard who almost certainly would have had a productive (or great) NBA career. He was better than Bob Cousy, who is in the Hall of Fame.

And Cliff Hagan and Frank Ramsey had impressive (Hall of Fame) NBA careers.




1956 Many of us know about the late (we lost him last year) great King Kelly Coleman.

Kentucky’s first Mr. Basketball. This legendary player might have been the best of them all, but was stubborn and undisciplined.

He was a renegade which hampered/crippled his career. I believe if he were in a situation where he had appropriate guidance and had he matured, that he could have had an all-star NBA career.


1960 Jeff Mullins (Lafayette). 12 years in the NBA. 3-time all-star.

1964 Darel Carrier (Bristow) 5 years in the ABA. 3-time all-star.

1963 Mike Redd, along with Wes Unseld, led Louisville Seneca to the state title. Redd won Mr. Basketball over Clem Haskins of Taylor County.

Redd went to Kentucky Wesleyan where he could play as a freshman.

Eventually he joined the military and played ball in Europe for a decade.

From every bit I have read, Redd would have been an NBA standout.

Haskins had a solid 9-year NBA career.



1964 Wes Unseld (Seneca) was an NBA MVP and Rookie of the Year. Hall of Fame.

1965 Butch Beard (Breckenridge County) had a 10-year NBA career (interrupted by one year when he was drafted by the military). Was an NBA all-star.

1966 Dave Cowens (Newport Catholic). NBA MVP. Hall of Fame.

1967 Jim McDaniels (Allen County) took Western Kentucky to the Final Four (at UK’s expense). He was a star in the NBA and ABA.

1976 Darrell Griffith (Louisville Male). 10 years in NBA, including Rookie of the Year.

1977 Jeff Lamp (Louisville Ballard). 8 years in NBA (interrupted by one season as a pro in Italy.)

1986 Rex Chapman (Owensboro Apollo) had a solid 11-year NBA career

1989 Allan Houston (Louisville Ballard) excellent 12-year NBA career. 2-time all-star.

2004 Rajon Rondo (Louisville Eastern) currently in his 15th NBA season. 4-time all-star.

 

[$Z71$]

It’s a numbers game. Kentucky has 4.4 million people. That’s a tiny number, hence not many elite basketball players.

 

[ACT ONE]

Kentucky is the 26th in population. It's just a matter of numbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population

 

[mktmaker]

Kentucky was small in the 60's and 70's and produced pro's regularly.

 

[ACT ONE]

It’s a numbers game. Kentucky has 4.4 million people. That’s a tiny number, hence not many elite basketball players.

Basketball has grown in popularity since then.

 

[JimboBBN]

Kentucky was small in the 60's and 70's and produced pro's regularly.

Other areas of the country have grown at a much fast pace than our state has. Especially out west.

 

[mktmaker]

OK. Let me try again.

So Kentucky is 26th in population -- almost exactly in the middle.

But has only produced 3 solid pros in 30+ years. And there are many more pros and professional teams.

 

[Canned Heat]

One potential factor is the movement of players (to private schools, basketball academies). Which usually means, kids leaving KY to go to another state to play.

A big factor is the growth of basketball around the world. (around 24.5% of players on opening night rosters were from other countries - 2018 season).

 

[HoptownCat93]

Usually your population centers determine how many good prospects you put out.

The city of Louisville is large but you don’t see great prospects out of that city anymore. The big schools there are generally football focused. I’m guessing youth basketball in Louisville isn’t well structured anymore. Bowling Green and Lexington are kinda the same.

Hopkinsville isn’t large, but we continue to put out a lot of basketball talent for a small town.

Bird Averitt back in the day led the nation in scoring at Pepperdine and helped Louisville win an ABA title.

Since 2000, we’ve had Chris Whitney, Greg Buckner, and Scotty Hopson all play in NBA games. Last year we had 3 division 1 players in Kyky Tandy at Xavier, Torrian Ware at Jacksonville State, and Qualis Matlock at Eastern Illinois. With Jalen Johnson who was at Murray State...started with Jay Scrubb at his juco this year along with his 7foot high school teammate form Hoptown who has D1 offers.

If we can do that in our little 30k town, no reason the rest of the state shouldn’t be better.

 

[Smashcat]

OK. Let me try again.

So Kentucky is 26th in population -- almost exactly in the middle.

But has only produced 3 solid pros in 30+ years. And there are many more pros and professional teams.

UK has a relatively small black population to start with and I'm guessing a majority of the best Kentucky black athletes (and white) are attracted to football more than basketball now (though I can't prove that).
You are going back to the 60s and 70s when NBA rosters still had a lot of white players. The NBA today is around 80 percent black.

 

[mktmaker]

Usually your population centers determine how many good prospects you put out.

The city of Louisville is large but you don’t see great prospects out of that city anymore. The big schools there are generally football focused. I’m guessing youth basketball in Louisville isn’t well structured anymore. Bowling Green and Lexington are kinda the same.

Hopkinsville isn’t large, but we continue to put out a lot of basketball talent for a small town.

Bird Averitt back in the day led the nation in scoring at Pepperdine and helped Louisville win an ABA title.

Since 2000, we’ve had Chris Whitney, Greg Buckner, and Scotty Hopson all play in NBA games. Last year we had 3 division 1 players in Kyky Tandy at Xavier, Torrian Ware at Jacksonville State, and Qualis Matlock at Eastern Illinois. With Jalen Johnson who was at Murray State...started with Jay Scrubb at his juco this year along with his 7foot high school teammate form Hoptown who has D1 offers.

If we can do that in our little 30k town, no reason the rest of the state shouldn’t be better.

I agree.

Also, I apologize for leaving out:

William "Bird" Averitt (Hopkinsville) played 6 years in the NBA/ABA

 

[majgun]

Small Urban population.

 

[Hoskins21]

The NBA is made up mostly of African-Americans. The population of AAs in Kentucky is around 8%.

 

[X-Man96]

What about Darius Miller, Shelvin Mack, D'Angelo Russell, Greg Buckner, Scott Padgett, Derek Anderson, Felton Spencer, Darryl Griffith, Winston Bennett, Melvin Turpin and countless others?

Those guys slip your mind?

 

[UKUGA]

Someone told me once that when Louisville started busing, it put a damper on the quality of basketball in the city.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

The NBA is made up mostly of African-Americans. The population of AAs in Kentucky is around 8%.

Exactly. For whatever reasons African Americans migrate to bigger cities in bigger states. And the game has changed a ton since the 60s and 70s. 1970 was 50 years ago guys.

 

[mktmaker]

What about Darius Miller, Shelvin Mack, D'Angelo Russell, Greg Buckner, Scott Padgett, Derek Anderson, Felton Spencer, Darryl Griffith, Winston Bennett, Melvin Turpin and countless others?

Those guys slip your mind?

Yes, they did slip my mind.

I guess I tapped out my limited memory on the players I listed.

Surprising, because Derek Anderson is among my favorite UK players.

I remembered Shelvin Mack, but I couldn't recall his name. I got him mixed up with Bud what's-his-name.

I DID list Darrell Griffith.




Thank you for noting my omissions.

I hope I brought up some names that many have not thought about in a long time. (That was the point of my post anyway.)

I guess it failed. No one "liked" my post.

Cabin fever, y'know.

 

[Emarc]

Someone told me once that when Louisville started busing, it put a damper on the quality of basketball in the city.

Ding, ding, ding. This and drugs

 

[mktmaker]

Someone told me once that when Louisville started busing, it put a damper on the quality of basketball in the city.

It was very controversial...and a BIG deal.

 

[littlecreek]

Usually your population centers determine how many good prospects you put out.

The city of Louisville is large but you don’t see great prospects out of that city anymore. The big schools there are generally football focused. I’m guessing youth basketball in Louisville isn’t well structured anymore. Bowling Green and Lexington are kinda the same.

Hopkinsville isn’t large, but we continue to put out a lot of basketball talent for a small town.

Bird Averitt back in the day led the nation in scoring at Pepperdine and helped Louisville win an ABA title.

Since 2000, we’ve had Chris Whitney, Greg Buckner, and Scotty Hopson all play in NBA games. Last year we had 3 division 1 players in Kyky Tandy at Xavier, Torrian Ware at Jacksonville State, and Qualis Matlock at Eastern Illinois. With Jalen Johnson who was at Murray State...started with Jay Scrubb at his juco this year along with his 7foot high school teammate form Hoptown who has D1 offers.

If we can do that in our little 30k town, no reason the rest of the state shouldn’t be better.

University Heights used to bring in kids from elsewhere, even from other countries. Is UHA still going strong in basketball? I don’t remember hearing much about them lately. Also, Hoptown won the state the year I played in it. Wendell Quarles had a solid tournament that year.

 

[littlecreek]

Yes, they did slip my mind.

I guess I tapped out my limited memory on the players I listed.

Surprising, because Derek Anderson is among my favorite UK players.

I remembered Shelvin Mack, but I couldn't recall his name. I got him mixed up with Bud what's-his-name.

I DID list Darrell Griffith.




Thank you for noting my omissions.

I hope I brought up some names that many have not thought about in a long time. (That was the point of my post anyway.)

I guess it failed. No one "liked" my post.

Cabin fever, y'know.

Whenever you have the opportunity, try to find and read a book calling “Basketball: The Dream Game in Kentucky “. It has a lot of information about Kentucky high schools, colleges, and the Colonels in it. It was written in the late ‘70s but it is a great book to read.

 

[Larry Skaggs]

Seems like Indianapolis produces one or two five star players every year

 

[HoptownCat93]

University Heights used to bring in kids from elsewhere, even from other countries. Is UHA still going strong in basketball? I don’t remember hearing much about them lately. Also, Hoptown won the state the year I played in it. Wendell Quarles had a solid tournament that year.

UHA is built off the Flynn family and a few other wealthy people’s support. The Flynn family is one of the wealthiest in the state.

They got a lot of that talent in the 1990’s when the Flynn children were in school. The support slipped but they had come good basketball...but it’s slipped the last 10-20 years. They really only get kids from in the city now like Scotty Hopson and Kyky Tandy. But, the Flynn have some grandkids coming through the school now and I think there might be a stronger commitment to basketball in the coming years.

UHA won the All-A state title last year.

The Quarles family was on the UHA state title team in 1992 also and their children are now playing for UHA. Fun fact about that title, UHA won that title during the Kentucky/Duke Elite 8 game during 1992. Everyone in Freedom Hall was focused on getting press box updates from the UK game.

 

[CB3UK]

Not as many blacks here as other Southern states. Also a median population at best. Not hard to figure out.

 

[CELTICAT]

They were asking this question in the 90s, btw. Answer back then was the best athletes were being funneled into football. Combine the out of state prep school phenomena for the really talented ones, and you have what we have.

 

[blockm2]

Kentucky is the 26th in population. It's just a matter of numbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_territories_of_the_United_States_by_population

26th by rank, but the population is all weighted to the very top. Kentucky has 1.4% of the US population.

30 NBA teams have 15 roster spots which means 450 total spots. But unlike a long time ago, now many of those roster spots are taken by foreign born players. Last season the NBA had > 100 foreign born players on opening night rosters. So from a pure population point of view, you'd expect the state of Kentucky to have maybe 3-4 players in the NBA at a given point in time.

 

[jwphelps]

Yes, I know that Kentucky has a modest population with small metropolitan areas. But that was also the case in the 1960's and 1970's when we sent players to the pro's every couple of years.

When I grew up the state of Kentucky frequently produced players who were successful in the NBA.

I graduated from Kentucky. I left Kentucky before I was 30.

So I do not know Kentucky high school basketball as I once did. [The most recent Kentucky state tournament I saw in person was in 1979 when Lafayette (Dirk Minniefield, et al) won.]

By that time, Kentucky high schools were producing dramatically less elite basketball talent.


(Most of the following -- with the exception of the NBA careers -- is just from memory. So please be gentle with your corrections. I am sure I left out some players.)

(Also, I am noting people from Kentucky who were successful as American professional players.)

I know a lot about earlier greats like Ralph Beard who almost certainly would have had a productive (or great) NBA career. He was better than Bob Cousy, who is in the Hall of Fame.

And Cliff Hagan and Frank Ramsey had impressive (Hall of Fame) NBA careers.




1956 Many of us know about the late (we lost him last year) great King Kelly Coleman.

Kentucky’s first Mr. Basketball. This legendary player might have been the best of them all, but was stubborn and undisciplined.

He was a renegade which hampered/crippled his career. I believe if he were in a situation where he had appropriate guidance and had he matured, that he could have had an all-star NBA career.


1960 Jeff Mullins (Lafayette). 12 years in the NBA. 3-time all-star.

1964 Darel Carrier (Bristow) 5 years in the ABA. 3-time all-star.

1963 Mike Redd, along with Wes Unseld, led Louisville Seneca to the state title. Redd won Mr. Basketball over Clem Haskins of Taylor County.

Redd went to Kentucky Wesleyan where he could play as a freshman.

Eventually he joined the military and played ball in Europe for a decade.

From every bit I have read, Redd would have been an NBA standout.

Haskins had a solid 9-year NBA career.



1964 Wes Unseld (Seneca) was an NBA MVP and Rookie of the Year. Hall of Fame.

1965 Butch Beard (Breckenridge County) had a 10-year NBA career (interrupted by one year when he was drafted by the military). Was an NBA all-star.

1966 Dave Cowens (Newport Catholic). NBA MVP. Hall of Fame.

1967 Jim McDaniels (Allen County) took Western Kentucky to the Final Four (at UK’s expense). He was a star in the NBA and ABA.

1976 Darrell Griffith (Louisville Male). 10 years in NBA, including Rookie of the Year.

1977 Jeff Lamp (Louisville Ballard). 8 years in NBA (interrupted by one season as a pro in Italy.)

1986 Rex Chapman (Owensboro Apollo) had a solid 11-year NBA career

1989 Allan Houston (Louisville Ballard) excellent 12-year NBA career. 2-time all-star.

2004 Rajon Rondo (Louisville Eastern) currently in his 15th NBA season. 4-time all-star.

As already mentioned part of it is a numbers game, but I would say the emergence of football as most likely the number one sport in Kentucky high school athletics has taken several great athletes away from basketball. Not as many players play more than one sport these days, I remember when I played Owensboro Catholic has Chris Brown, stud football player and basketball player, most likely would have been a great basketball player but Notre Dame came calling for football and he went the grid iron way, ended up playing for the Pittsburgh Steelers.

 

[katwest]

Let's not forget jumping Joe Fulks, an NBA scoring champion and jump shot innovator from Birmingham KY.

 

[CatGotMyTongue]

Exactly. For whatever reasons African Americans migrate to bigger cities in bigger states. And the game has changed a ton since the 60s and 70s. 1970 was 50 years ago guys.

 

[JasonS.]

Not as many blacks here as other Southern states. Also a median population at best. Not hard to figure out.

It’s true. We’re so lame.

 

[sambowieshin]

Demographics...plain and simple.

 

[TeoJ]

Kentucky high school ball,was the thing to do,not so much any more and not nearly as popular as the sixty's 70's.

 

[mktmaker]

What about Darius Miller, Shelvin Mack, D'Angelo Russell, Greg Buckner, Scott Padgett, Derek Anderson, Felton Spencer, Darryl Griffith, Winston Bennett, Melvin Turpin and countless others?

Those guys slip your mind?

Now I see why I missed most of the fellows you listed.

Those I listed were mostly all-stars; MVP's; Hall of Famers. All had long pro careers.



1) I did note Darrell Griffith.

2) As I mentioned previously Derek Anderson had a solid career as a pro.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Awesome thread and I’ve often wondered the same. Could you imagine what Rupp’s coaching career would look like had hw been able to recruit and sign black players?! Hell, just the in state black players alone would’ve been unreal.

The state of Kentucky produced some amazing talent back then, like the OP said. Most, of which, were basically off limits for Coach Rupp. Meanwhile, other top programs were able to sign these guys. Really put Rupp at a disadvantage IMO. How could it not?!

 

[kb22stang]

Yes, I know that Kentucky has a modest population with small metropolitan areas. But that was also the case in the 1960's and 1970's when we sent players to the pro's every couple of years.

When I grew up the state of Kentucky frequently produced players who were successful in the NBA.

I graduated from Kentucky. I left Kentucky before I was 30.

So I do not know Kentucky high school basketball as I once did. [The most recent Kentucky state tournament I saw in person was in 1979 when Lafayette (Dirk Minniefield, et al) won.]

By that time, Kentucky high schools were producing dramatically less elite basketball talent.


(Most of the following -- with the exception of the NBA careers -- is just from memory. So please be gentle with your corrections. I am sure I left out some players.)

(Also, I am noting people from Kentucky who were successful as American professional players.)

I know a lot about earlier greats like Ralph Beard who almost certainly would have had a productive (or great) NBA career. He was better than Bob Cousy, who is in the Hall of Fame.

And Cliff Hagan and Frank Ramsey had impressive (Hall of Fame) NBA careers.




1956 Many of us know about the late (we lost him last year) great King Kelly Coleman.

Kentucky’s first Mr. Basketball. This legendary player might have been the best of them all, but was stubborn and undisciplined.

He was a renegade which hampered/crippled his career. I believe if he were in a situation where he had appropriate guidance and had he matured, that he could have had an all-star NBA career.


1960 Jeff Mullins (Lafayette). 12 years in the NBA. 3-time all-star.

1964 Darel Carrier (Bristow) 5 years in the ABA. 3-time all-star.

1963 Mike Redd, along with Wes Unseld, led Louisville Seneca to the state title. Redd won Mr. Basketball over Clem Haskins of Taylor County.

Redd went to Kentucky Wesleyan where he could play as a freshman.

Eventually he joined the military and played ball in Europe for a decade.

From every bit I have read, Redd would have been an NBA standout.

Haskins had a solid 9-year NBA career.



1964 Wes Unseld (Seneca) was an NBA MVP and Rookie of the Year. Hall of Fame.

1965 Butch Beard (Breckenridge County) had a 10-year NBA career (interrupted by one year when he was drafted by the military). Was an NBA all-star.

1966 Dave Cowens (Newport Catholic). NBA MVP. Hall of Fame.

1967 Jim McDaniels (Allen County) took Western Kentucky to the Final Four (at UK’s expense). He was a star in the NBA and ABA.

1976 Darrell Griffith (Louisville Male). 10 years in NBA, including Rookie of the Year.

1977 Jeff Lamp (Louisville Ballard). 8 years in NBA (interrupted by one season as a pro in Italy.)

1986 Rex Chapman (Owensboro Apollo) had a solid 11-year NBA career

1989 Allan Houston (Louisville Ballard) excellent 12-year NBA career. 2-time all-star.

2004 Rajon Rondo (Louisville Eastern) currently in his 15th NBA season. 4-time all-star.

Anything that happened before integration of the sport is irrelevant, Kentucky doesn't have the sheer population of other states, nor the population of african americans of other states.

 

[MakinMusic]

I can’t say for sure but if someone were willing to dig into the numbers you would find the great majority of the past 10 years of top 10 draft picks come from large metro areas. Not necessarily inner city but tied to a major US City.

 

[UKDUNK]

UK has a relatively small black population to start with and I'm guessing a majority of the best Kentucky black athletes (and white) are attracted to football more than basketball now (though I can't prove that).
You are going back to the 60s and 70s when NBA rosters still had a lot of white players. The NBA today is around 80 percent black.

In Lexington you are right about football being prioritized over basketball in the black community. My stab at a guess as to why is the fact that there are A LOT of African-American youth football coaches in Lexington who push black kids in that direction. I don't think we have as much representation with boys basketball.

 

[TheOtherGreatOne]

In my opinion school consolidation played a big part. When every town had a team the whole community came together and stood behind the team. There are numerous players that are late developers, and they had a chance to play and develop their skills when every town had a team and they had the whole town behind them so they worked as hard as they could and were able to make themselves into players. With school consolidation this type of players could not make the team when they were younger and simply lost interest and moved on to other things. This also caused people in the towns to drift apart and are not as close as they used t be. To me consolidation lost Kentucky A lot of late blooming players who simply quit playing. It also caused a lot of people to detach from their town, and are not as close to each other as they used to be. Just my opinion.

 

[HagginHall1999]

OK. Let me try again.

So Kentucky is 26th in population -- almost exactly in the middle.

But has only produced 3 solid pros in 30+ years. And there are many more pros and professional teams.

It is percentages. Prefacing what I am about to type...I am just sharing statistics.

75% of the NBA is African American
8% of Kentucky population is African American
9% of NBA is White American

Statistics.

This means there are roughly 40 White Americans in NBA and roughly 340 African Americans in NBA.

 

[mktmaker]

Awesome thread and I’ve often wondered the same. Could you imagine what Rupp’s coaching career would look like had hw been able to recruit and sign black players?! Hell, just the in state black players alone would’ve been unreal.

The state of Kentucky produced some amazing talent back then, like the OP said. Most, of which, were basically off limits for Coach Rupp. Meanwhile, other top programs were able to sign these guys. Really put Rupp at a disadvantage IMO. How could it not?!

The key would have been Clem Haskins (1963).

Clem played his freshman and sophomore years at all-black Durham high school in Campbellsville, before finishing at Taylor County.

He signed with Louisville, but transferred to Western Kentucky before he played for UofL. He became a 1st team all-American.

He was from Campbellsville (Taylor County) and felt that Louisville was too big and far away. (Not too different from the Larry Bird situation at IU.)

He was in the same class at WKU as Dwight Smith -- another great rural Kentucky player. Smith (from Princeton's all-black Dotson High School, in Caldwell County) was also an outstanding collegiate player who unfortunately died in a car crash.

(1964 Kentucky High School basketball All-Tournament Team at Memorial Coliseum)
(Lower left is Greg Smith, Dwight Smith's younger brother, who would also star at Western. Butch Beard and Wes Unseld are the last two on the back row right.)

At this time neither the SEC nor the ACC had ever had an African-American basketball nor football player. There was a lot of concern about safety and accommodations in the deep South. Most hotels and restaurants were restricted to whites-only.

As some of you know, Wes Unseld (1964) considered UK.
In an in-home visit with the Unseld's, Wes's mother asked Coach Rupp if he would guarantee her son's safety when they travelled. Coach Rupp said he could not guarantee.

It was more complicated than that. If you want to read details about this encounter, go to Jon Scott's great Big Blue History website.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/rupp.html#evidencecon

In 1965 Butch Beard was Ky's Mr. Basketball. He led his Breckinridge County team to the state title.

Kentucky recruited him hard. He wanted to come to UK. Again, it is/was complicated. (You can see many of the details at the Jon Scott link.)




So IN MY OPINION, had Clem Haskins been the pioneer at UK it might have opened the doors much sooner and helped add some GREAT home-grown talent.

And as I suggested in my OP we don't seem to grow talent like that (Haskins, Smith, Unseld, Beard -- all in a 3-year period) in Kentucky any more.