Why does the state of Kentucky produce so few NBA players?

[Cowtown Cat]

The key would have been Clem Haskins (1963).

Clem played his freshman and sophomore years at all-black Durham high school in Campbellsville, before finishing at Taylor County.

He signed with Louisville, but transferred to Western Kentucky before he played for UofL. He became a 1st team all-American.

He was from Campbellsville (Taylor County) and felt that Louisville was too big and far away. (Not too different from the Larry Bird situation at IU.)

He was in the same class at WKU as Dwight Smith -- another great rural Kentucky player. Smith (from Princeton's all-black Dotson High School, in Caldwell County) was also an outstanding collegiate player who unfortunately died in a car crash.

(1964 Kentucky High School basketball All-Tournament Team at Memorial Coliseum)
(Lower left is Greg Smith, Dwight Smith's younger brother, who would also star at Western. Butch Beard and Wes Unseld are the last two on the back row right.)

At this time neither the SEC nor the ACC had ever had an African-American basketball nor football player. There was a lot of concern about safety and accommodations in the deep South. Most hotels and restaurants were restricted to whites-only.

As some of you know, Wes Unseld (1964) considered UK.
In an in-home visit with the Unseld's, Wes's mother asked Coach Rupp if he would guarantee her son's safety when they travelled. Coach Rupp said he could not guarantee.

It was more complicated than that. If you want to read details about this encounter, go to Jon Scott's great Big Blue History website.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/rupp.html#evidencecon

In 1965 Butch Beard was Ky's Mr. Basketball. He led his Breckinridge County team to the state title.

Kentucky recruited him hard. He wanted to come to UK. Again, it is/was complicated. (You can see many of the details at the Jon Scott link.)




So IN MY OPINION, had Clem Haskins been the pioneer at UK it might have opened the doors much sooner and helped add some GREAT home-grown talent.

And as I suggested in my OP we don't seem to grow talent like that (Haskins, Smith, Unseld, Beard -- all in a 3-year period) in Kentucky any more.

This is a fantastic thread and should be pinned! I read an article a couple months ago about the in state basketball talent in Kentucky during the 60s and 70s. It was a very interesting read.

Schools out West were able to sign black players back then, it was just different the East and South. After reading that article it made me wonder how many more titles Rupp would’ve won, had he been able to actually sign and play all that in state talent. Not only that, but he could’ve gotten black players from other states as well.

Also makes me wonder how much different UCLA’s run would be had other colleges had the same advantages as they did, being able to play black players. This is especially true for Rupp and Kentucky. I have to think we would’ve won at least two or three of those ten titles UCLA came away with, even with them cheating with Sam Gilbert. JMO.

EDIT: Here’s the article. I’ve posted it before l, but I’ll post it once more to add to this thread. https://www.aseaofblue.com/2008/7/31/583522/the-integration-of-uk-bask

 

[ptril]

What about Jim McDaniels of Allen County (1967)? High Schools in West Kentucky produced some great talent in the mid 1960's. Jim McDaniels, Dwight and Greg Smith, Clem Haskins ....quite a bit of talent.

 

[villefan76]

UHA is built off the Flynn family and a few other wealthy people’s support. The Flynn family is one of the wealthiest in the state.

They got a lot of that talent in the 1990’s when the Flynn children were in school. The support slipped but they had come good basketball...but it’s slipped the last 10-20 years. They really only get kids from in the city now like Scotty Hopson and Kyky Tandy. But, the Flynn have some grandkids coming through the school now and I think there might be a stronger commitment to basketball in the coming years.

UHA won the All-A state title last year.

The Quarles family was on the UHA state title team in 1992 also and their children are now playing for UHA. Fun fact about that title, UHA won that title during the Kentucky/Duke Elite 8 game during 1992. Everyone in Freedom Hall was focused on getting press box updates from the UK game.

Fun fact part two: The Paintsville Tigers won the the state title back in 96, one of the smallest school populations in the state, around 300 students; Class A. That same time our Wildcats brought the title back home too!

 

[mktmaker]

What about Jim McDaniels of Allen County (1967)? High Schools in West Kentucky produced some great talent in the mid 1960's. Jim McDaniels, Dwight and Greg Smith, Clem Haskins ....quite a bit of talent.

Well, as you noted, McDaniels was a great player who graduated from Allen County in 1967.

Haskins was gone by then, as would have been Dwight Smith.

The McDaniels teams were recruited by McDaniels himself. He was from Scottsville -- 25 miles from WKU. Jim Rose was from Hazard. But the other starters were all from within 35 miles of Bowling Green: Jerry Dunn and Rex Bailey were from Glasgow. Clarence Glover was from Caverna High School.

Both the Haskins and McDaniels teams were national powers. Western was screwed in the 1966 NCAA tournament (on a jump ball, Cazzie Russell committed an obvious foul). The following year, Dwight Smith was dead from a car crash and Haskins broke his wrist.



UCLA was beatable:

And if you add in Haskins (senior) and Unseld (junior) to the 1966 Runts...

Alcindor was a freshman and therefore ineligible.



Or senior Beard (1969) and sophomore McDaniels (1971) with juniors Issel, Pratt, Casey....

1969 (and 1970) was between the almost invincible Alcindor and Walton teams.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Well, as you noted, McDaniels was a great player who graduated from Allen County in 1967.

Haskins was gone by then, as would have been Dwight Smith.

The McDaniels teams were recruited by McDaniels himself. He was from Scottsville -- 25 miles from WKU. Jim Rose was from Hazard. But the other starters were all from within 35 miles of Bowling Green. Jerry Dunn and Rex Bailey were from Glasgow. Clarence Glover was from Caverna High School.

Both the Haskins and McDaniels teams were national powers. Western was screwed in the 1966 NCAA tournament (on a jump ball, Cazzie Russell committed an obviously foul). The following year, Dwight Smith was dead from a car crash and Haskins broke his wrist.




And if you add in Haskins and Unseld to the Runts...

Or Beard and McDaniels with Issel, Pratt, Casey....

This example is exactly the type of thing I’m talking about. Man, what if....

 

[Deacon Jim]

Don`t forget Arnold Risen, Hall of Famer from Williamstown back in the fifties. Also Tom Thacker from Covington. He was the only player to win an NCAA championship and An ABA and an NBA championship.

 

[bfawns]

I hadn't heard of Tom Thacker for a long time. He was at the Ft Thomas induction center when I reported for my Army physical in 1963.
Small world!

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Don`t forget Arnold Risen, Hall of Famer from Williamstown back in the fifties. Also Tom Thacker from Covington. He was the only player to win an NCAA championship and An ABA and an NBA championship.

Just read that he also has a CBA Championship ring. He was injured that particular year, though.

 

[Cobb4uk]

The county where I grew up in Western KY had nearly 9 thousand population in the 60's now less than 5 thousand. Most moved to Memphis, St Louis, Nashville etc to work. Now if a small school has a quality player they go to the best consolidated school for the most exposure. The state of Tennessee basketball was terrible in the 60's, coaching was poor, that's not the case today. Great coaches won't stay at small KY schools, they better themselves by moving up. Hate to say it but most white kids are to lazy to ply sports, they would rather use their thumbs on video games.

 

[dvillecatfan]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/high_schools.fcgi?state=KY

 

[Tyblue22]

It doesn't help that we have 1 state tournament when other states have a state championship for each class. And the KHSAA actually brags about it and thinks it's so awesome. It's crap. Have a state tournament for every class and when small to mid-size schools can actually play in Rupp and win a state title it will build more interest in basketball and kids may try harder and invest more. Indiana has it right. And their high school basketball it off the charts popular.

 

[mktmaker]

What about Darius Miller, Shelvin Mack, D'Angelo Russell, Greg Buckner, Scott Padgett, Derek Anderson, Felton Spencer, Darryl Griffith, Winston Bennett, Melvin Turpin and countless others?

Those guys slip your mind?

X-Man, you obviously know your basketball.

Many of us are home-bound. So I/we can discuss things that wouldn't get read during a normal March Madness.

So...with your consideration (and indulgence):



None of the players you listed could start on a team with my guys.

"My guys" would beat yours by 30+.

 

[Hoskins91]

Only one major city, with a very small black population. Same reason KY high school talent doesn’t stack up compared to a lot of other places.

 

[SaguaroCat]

It's more than population size. And more than metros. And more than black population.

Look at North Carolina. They are not equal to us, but the output is out of proportion. Indiana more so. Not familiar with Washington having an urban reputation.

If I had to guess, I would look at their sports industries. In DFW youth sports business is big. Traveling teams, academies, lessons, YMCAs, after school centers, little leagues, summer camps, AAU. Some expensive, but most affordable. And good players get it taken care of. Talent is identified early. Something is available year round. And experienced coaches who take it serious at every level.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

Not even going to get into the statistics on demographics, but Kentucky being the eighth whitest state (in terms of % of population) doesn’t exactly help matters in a sport that is very heavily played by African Americans at the NBA level.

It’s a simple numbers game. Less than 0.1% of the population makes it to the NBA. 530 players played in an NBA game last year. At maximum, which would mean every player was an American which obviously isn’t true, that would mean 0.0001614% of Americans played on the NBA last season.

Kentucky, at 4.468 million people, only had an estimated 1.36% of the USA population in 2019.

So how many people is 0.0001614% of 4.468 million? 7.211, so basically 7. So at maximum, just based purely on the statistics of the probability of any single human being having a chance of ever making the NBA, Kentucky would have only had 7 players in the NBA last year if not a single international player has played.

Now 118 of those 530 players are listed as international by the NBA. So that reduces the % of Americans who were NBA players to 0.0001255%

0.0001255% of the Kentucky population is 5.607.

There were 7 players born in the state of Kentucky in the NBA last year - Rondo, Ray Spalding, Darius Miller, Sheldon Mack, PJ Washington, D’Angelo Russell, and Kelan Martin. Five that graduated from a Kentucky HS played in the NBA last year.

So Kentucky is right around the average.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

OK. Let me try again.

So Kentucky is 26th in population -- almost exactly in the middle.

But has only produced 3 solid pros in 30+ years. And there are many more pros and professional teams.

Well which is is it are you looking for NBA or simply professional? Keep your story straight.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

Exactly. For whatever reasons African Americans migrate to bigger cities in bigger states. And the game has changed a ton since the 60s and 70s. 1970 was 50 years ago guys.

Rural America is a lot of farm work, and African Americans don’t exactly have fond memories and histories of farm work.

 

[mktmaker]

It’s a simple numbers game. Less than 0.1% of the population makes it to the NBA. 530 players played in an NBA game last year. At maximum, which would mean every player was an American which obviously isn’t true, that would mean 0.0001614% of Americans played on the NBA last season.

Kentucky, at 4.468 million people, only had an estimated 1.36% of the USA population in 2019.

So how many people is 0.0001614% of 4.468 million? 7.211, so basically 7. So at maximum, just based purely on the statistics of the probability of any single human being having a chance of ever making the NBA, Kentucky would have only had 7 players in the NBA last year if not a single international player has played.

Now 118 of those 530 players are listed as international by the NBA. So that reduces the % of Americans who were NBA players to 0.0001255%

0.0001255% of the Kentucky population is 5.607.

There were 7 players born in the state of Kentucky in the NBA last year - Rondo, Ray Spalding, Darius Miller, Sheldon Mack, PJ Washington, D’Angelo Russell, and Kelan Martin. Five that graduated from a Kentucky HS played in the NBA last year.

So Kentucky is right around the average.

But what happened to the ELITE talent?

In 1975, the NBA had Clem Haskins, Jeff Mullins, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Jim McDaniels, Butch Beard.

Is there currently elite Kentucky-grown talent in the NBA?

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

But what happened to the ELITE talent?

In 1975, the NBA had Clem Haskins, Jeff Mullins, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Jim McDaniels, Butch Beard.

Is there currently elite Kentucky-grown talent in the NBA?

Name the # of elite white Americans in the NBA today.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

Name the # of elite white Americans in the NBA today.

I literally can’t name one off the top of my head.

D’Angelo Russell was at least an All-Star in 2019.

 

[BBUK]

Not enough fuddles....

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

White American leaders in PER this season, 262 eligible players, listed in order of their rank

Steven Adams
Mason Plumlee
Cody Zeller
Gordon Hayward
Kevin Love
TJ McConnell
JJ Redick
Donte DiVincenzo
Doug McDermott
Brook Lopez
Duncan Robinson
Joe Harris
Kevin Huerter
Tyler Herro
Kyle Korver
Pay Connaughton
Robin Lopez
Meyers Leonard
Alex Caruso
Ryan Arcidiacono

That’s it. Only 20 played enough to qualify to be ranked. Not a single of them is elite and only three couldn’t have an argument for ever being elite in the NBA in Kevin Love, Gordon Hayward, and Brook Lopez

And Kentucky is 92% white. The numbers and demographics don’t add up to Kentucky producing much NBA talent.

The fact that there is even five playing in the NBA that played HS ball in Kentucky is miraculous enough as it is given the demographics because five is right around the average of what they would have without even accounting for demographics.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

It's more than population size. And more than metros. And more than black population.

Look at North Carolina. They are not equal to us, but the output is out of proportion. Indiana more so. Not familiar with Washington having an urban reputation.

If I had to guess, I would look at their sports industries. In DFW youth sports business is big. Traveling teams, academies, lessons, YMCAs, after school centers, little leagues, summer camps, AAU. Some expensive, but most affordable. And good players get it taken care of. Talent is identified early. Something is available year round. And experienced coaches who take it serious at every level.

North Carolina also ranks 7th in percentage of popluation that is African American (AA) with over 2 million AA, the sixth greatest total number.

Only states higher by % are Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia, Maryland, South Carolina, and Alabama. 8th if you include DC.

Only states higher by total are NY, Florida, Texas, Georgia, and California. Hmm, wonder why those states have so many NBA players?

A state with a large AA population that is a basketball crazed state. I think it’s pretty obvious why they have a lot more NBA players than Kentucky.

Additionally, as of 2010, Indiana had well over 200,000 more AAs. Kentucky as a whole only had 361.3K AAs.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

It's more than population size. And more than metros. And more than black population.

Look at North Carolina. They are not equal to us, but the output is out of proportion. Indiana more so. Not familiar with Washington having an urban reputation.

If I had to guess, I would look at their sports industries. In DFW youth sports business is big. Traveling teams, academies, lessons, YMCAs, after school centers, little leagues, summer camps, AAU. Some expensive, but most affordable. And good players get it taken care of. Talent is identified early. Something is available year round. And experienced coaches who take it serious at every level.

Now there are some outliers in that chart, like Indiana and Washington, but the states with higher African American populations tend to rank higher on that chart of NBA players by state. Except for the Deep South states that really only care about football.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

Did a table highlighting the differences between a state's rank in # of NBA players they have relative to their total population of African Americans. The data on African American population is taken from this Wikipedia page but that data is 10 years old. I couldn't find a handy table with more recent data.

I excluded states that had zero NBA players (based on the chart that was previously posted) except the ones who had a negative differential because they should have an NBA player based on nothing else but the # of African Americans they have.

The picture of the table is in the spoiler due to size.

I would say the only outliers in terms of greater # of players relative to their American population is Washington and Indiana since they have double-digit NBA players. I suppose you could include Oregon and Minnesota as well but they only have 13 combined NBA players. All four of those aren't big football states as far as I know or are much bigger from a basketball point of view at the non-professional level. Though Minnesota at the D1 collegiate level is junk at both basketball and football.

8 of the states with 2 or fewer NBA players rank positively in the differential because literally those states having merely one or two NBA players is a bit of an outlier anyways, but I wouldn't call it a significant outlier, more like just being lucky given the small data point.

The vast majority of the states that rank in the negative differential are football-centric states (which includes nearly every state in the south with an NBA player) or just poor states for football and basketball to begin with (mostly New England and Delaware). Alas, the majority of states are within a margin of five. So the results for the negative differential states really isn't all that surprising.

Spoiler

 

[BoulderCat]

Yes, I know that Kentucky has a modest population with small metropolitan areas. But that was also the case in the 1960's and 1970's when we sent players to the pro's every couple of years.

When I grew up the state of Kentucky frequently produced players who were successful in the NBA.

I graduated from Kentucky. I left Kentucky before I was 30.

So I do not know Kentucky high school basketball as I once did. [The most recent Kentucky state tournament I saw in person was in 1979 when Lafayette (Dirk Minniefield, et al) won.]

By that time, Kentucky high schools were producing dramatically less elite basketball talent.


(Most of the following -- with the exception of the NBA careers -- is just from memory. So please be gentle with your corrections. I am sure I left out some players.)

(Also, I am noting people from Kentucky who were successful as American professional players.)

I know a lot about earlier greats like Ralph Beard who almost certainly would have had a productive (or great) NBA career. He was better than Bob Cousy, who is in the Hall of Fame.

And Cliff Hagan and Frank Ramsey had impressive (Hall of Fame) NBA careers.




1956 Many of us know about the late (we lost him last year) great King Kelly Coleman.

Kentucky’s first Mr. Basketball. This legendary player might have been the best of them all, but was stubborn and undisciplined.

He was a renegade which hampered/crippled his career. I believe if he were in a situation where he had appropriate guidance and had he matured, that he could have had an all-star NBA career.


1960 Jeff Mullins (Lafayette). 12 years in the NBA. 3-time all-star.

1964 Darel Carrier (Bristow) 5 years in the ABA. 3-time all-star.

1963 Mike Redd, along with Wes Unseld, led Louisville Seneca to the state title. Redd won Mr. Basketball over Clem Haskins of Taylor County.

Redd went to Kentucky Wesleyan where he could play as a freshman.

Eventually he joined the military and played ball in Europe for a decade.

From every bit I have read, Redd would have been an NBA standout.

Haskins had a solid 9-year NBA career.



1964 Wes Unseld (Seneca) was an NBA MVP and Rookie of the Year. Hall of Fame.

1965 Butch Beard (Breckenridge County) had a 10-year NBA career (interrupted by one year when he was drafted by the military). Was an NBA all-star.

1966 Dave Cowens (Newport Catholic). NBA MVP. Hall of Fame.

1967 Jim McDaniels (Allen County) took Western Kentucky to the Final Four (at UK’s expense). He was a star in the NBA and ABA.

1976 Darrell Griffith (Louisville Male). 10 years in NBA, including Rookie of the Year.

1977 Jeff Lamp (Louisville Ballard). 8 years in NBA (interrupted by one season as a pro in Italy.)

1986 Rex Chapman (Owensboro Apollo) had a solid 11-year NBA career

1989 Allan Houston (Louisville Ballard) excellent 12-year NBA career. 2-time all-star.

2004 Rajon Rondo (Louisville Eastern) currently in his 15th NBA season. 4-time all-star.

First of all nice write up. It’s just numbers. Kentucky has a fairly small population. Colorado is the same. Neither produces many elite basketball prospects.

BTW the population of Ky is more like 6 million and ours about 8. The census has a wonderful website where you can drill down to the county level. Hey I have the time. Perhaps you do as well.

 

[JessHoople]

Genetics, short white people don't make the best NBA players.

 

[uky8unc5]

One more thought:

Specialized Focused Club sports is hyper developed in other states (with higher populations).

Example...Baseball:
* 1998 to 2005: my son played 100+ games a year.
* Competition + Coaching was elevated
* Before college, he could recognize breaking balls by reading pitcher's elbow.

That cannot exist in low populated areas.

 

[Cychologist]

People need to revisit this post when they start crying for Cal to recruit more Kentucky kids.

There are reasons....

 

[jf121264]

Left out Kenny Higgs from Owensboro. Brother Mark wasn't too shabby either in football. Both played in the Pros.

 

[Buck Creek Cat]

Yes, I know that Kentucky has a modest population with small metropolitan areas. But that was also the case in the 1960's and 1970's when we sent players to the pro's every couple of years.

When I grew up the state of Kentucky frequently produced players who were successful in the NBA.

I graduated from Kentucky. I left Kentucky before I was 30.

So I do not know Kentucky high school basketball as I once did. [The most recent Kentucky state tournament I saw in person was in 1979 when Lafayette (Dirk Minniefield, et al) won.]

By that time, Kentucky high schools were producing dramatically less elite basketball talent.


(Most of the following -- with the exception of the NBA careers -- is just from memory. So please be gentle with your corrections. I am sure I left out some players.)

(Also, I am noting people from Kentucky who were successful as American professional players.)

I know a lot about earlier greats like Ralph Beard who almost certainly would have had a productive (or great) NBA career. He was better than Bob Cousy, who is in the Hall of Fame.

And Cliff Hagan and Frank Ramsey had impressive (Hall of Fame) NBA careers.




1956 Many of us know about the late (we lost him last year) great King Kelly Coleman.

Kentucky’s first Mr. Basketball. This legendary player might have been the best of them all, but was stubborn and undisciplined.

He was a renegade which hampered/crippled his career. I believe if he were in a situation where he had appropriate guidance and had he matured, that he could have had an all-star NBA career.


1960 Jeff Mullins (Lafayette). 12 years in the NBA. 3-time all-star.

1964 Darel Carrier (Bristow) 5 years in the ABA. 3-time all-star.

1963 Mike Redd, along with Wes Unseld, led Louisville Seneca to the state title. Redd won Mr. Basketball over Clem Haskins of Taylor County.

Redd went to Kentucky Wesleyan where he could play as a freshman.

Eventually he joined the military and played ball in Europe for a decade.

From every bit I have read, Redd would have been an NBA standout.

Haskins had a solid 9-year NBA career.



1964 Wes Unseld (Seneca) was an NBA MVP and Rookie of the Year. Hall of Fame.

1965 Butch Beard (Breckenridge County) had a 10-year NBA career (interrupted by one year when he was drafted by the military). Was an NBA all-star.

1966 Dave Cowens (Newport Catholic). NBA MVP. Hall of Fame.

1967 Jim McDaniels (Allen County) took Western Kentucky to the Final Four (at UK’s expense). He was a star in the NBA and ABA.

1976 Darrell Griffith (Louisville Male). 10 years in NBA, including Rookie of the Year.

1977 Jeff Lamp (Louisville Ballard). 8 years in NBA (interrupted by one season as a pro in Italy.)

1986 Rex Chapman (Owensboro Apollo) had a solid 11-year NBA career

1989 Allan Houston (Louisville Ballard) excellent 12-year NBA career. 2-time all-star.

2004 Rajon Rondo (Louisville Eastern) currently in his 15th NBA season. 4-time all-star.

 

[Buck Creek Cat]

Do any of you remember Glen Combs of Carr Creek who played his college at Virginia Tech? He was drafted into the NBA in the late 1960’s but chose the ABA, was a three time All Star guard and led the league twice in 3 point shooting. He scored 7,666 career points in the league. Also played on an ABA championship team.
I think he has qualifications for the lists of players mentioned in this thread.

 

[CatGotMyTongue]

Jimmy Chitwood?

 

[420grover]

But what happened to the ELITE talent?

In 1975, the NBA had Clem Haskins, Jeff Mullins, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Jim McDaniels, Butch Beard.

Is there currently elite Kentucky-grown talent in the NBA?

Define elite. At any given time, there are only around 20 truly elite guys. No state produces a mass amount of them.