Why did Joe B Hall stop coaching?

[anon_q409idbs5m40a]

If Cal is above reproach, and let's face it, there's about 60% of the board who believe he is, then Hall should be extremely close to untouchable. Personally I think Cal needs to put together another final four or title before he eclipsed Hall all together. It's essentially 1a and 1b. He probably will by the 13th year mark if he stays though.

Hall had a brutal way through. People think following Cal will be tough? Try following a man with 4 titles. If you don't get that then you're in denial about the man and his situation.

College administrations were incredibly liberal in the way they ran athletics back then. Everyone who was winning was cheating. Everyone. Kentucky was hated then just like now and were held to a standard unlike others. The playing field was even as far as I'm concerned.

Hall was a good man and without him we simply are not the program we are today. In a lot of ways, he's as important as Rupp.

Give Respect.

Fully agree with this. I was still living in Kentucky and was at UK during Hall's entire tenure. For those who say he underachieved looks at the man's record; three Final Fours, one title, one runner-up and he won the NIT when it was still a somewhat prestigious tournament. If you say Hall underachieved with the talent he had then you can make similar points about Cal. The bottom line is that it's incredibly difficult to win National Title no matter who you have on the roster. IMO, his two best coaching jobs were in 1973 and 1985. In 1985 he took an undersized team to the final 16 of the NCAA and beat UNLV with much less talent that they had that year. I used to see him on campus and he would always speak to students while he was headed to the Coliseum. The man deserves respect and he put up with a ton of abuse while coaching at UK. I think he simply got tired of coaching as 13 years is an eternity to be at UK.

 

[rabidcatfan]

Coach Hall wasn't doing anything that Dean Smith, Denny Crum, or John Wooden weren't doing. Hall just happened to be in a college town where the local paper hates the local universities sports programs and will do anything they have to to nail them to the wall.

 

[anon_q409idbs5m40a]

Coach Hall wasn't doing anything that Dean Smith, Denny Crum, or John Wooden weren't doing. Hall just happened to be in a college town where the local paper hates the local universities sports programs and will do anything they have to to nail them to the wall.

Exactly

 

[trinity45]

Coach Hall was the bag man for Rupp, Leonard Hamilton was the bag man for Joe B, but he got run out because he played a style that people hated for the most part and really had trouble winning the "big ones". As someone mentioned Joe B doing that radio show and kind of being the lovable country grandpa did wonders for his image here.

Not sure about being run out of town because of his style of play. I liked the way the cats played under Hall, I think when Leonard left and he was the man responsible for bringing in the recruits and the fact that some people with clout did not like him replacing Rupp wore him out. I heard him say one time the fun was sucked out of the game for him. I also think the stuff that happened under Sutton would never had made it to light under Hall, he ran too tight a ship, Sutton was a good coach but a drunk and could not handle the pressure and let things get too loose. Face it what happened at UK was happening at almost every school that counted back then. That was when the NCAA decide to start cleaning up things.

 

[floatingyou]

Coach Hall wasn't doing anything that Dean Smith, Denny Crum, or John Wooden weren't doing. Hall just happened to be in a college town where the local paper hates the local universities sports programs and will do anything they have to to nail them to the wall.

Wooden might have been the dirtiest coach ever with Uncle Sam providing his players with basically anything they wanted

 

[JustBlue]

His 1-12 record at Tennessee did him no favors either. The only year during his tenure that we won down there was our championship year of 78.

JB

 

[LeonThe Camel]

U of L had Crum. IU had Knight. We had Hall. It was clear we were third in that contest. From 1980-1987 Crum and Knight won four of the eight championships. Crum had four Final Fours in that span. If U of L and IU were struggling I believe there would have been a LOT less pressure on Joe B.

Add in the fact Hall lost the Dream Game with Masters, Bowie, Turpin, Beal, Minniefield, Hurt, Walker. Many of the fans started turning on Hall at that point.

 

[EvilMD]

1980 U of L won their first title, we lost at home to Duke. 1981 both teams lost in the first round, but we lost to UAB (who then lost big to IU) and U of L lost on a half court shot. 1982 we lost to Middle Tennessee and U of L promptly beat them by 25. 1983 we led by 12 but U of L came back because we couldn't handle a press. 1984 was set up to be our year. We choked. 1985 we barely made the tournament.

It's amazing Hall survived as long as he did. I'm just glad he got out with his dignity intact. He's a good man.

 

[UpstateNYCat]

(1) No. 8 U.K. loss to UAB 69-62 in the NCAA Second Round, 1981.
(2) No. 15 U.K. loss to Middle Tennessee 50-44 in the NCAA First Round, 1982.
(3) Hall’s terrible coaching of Derrick Hord that ruined an All-American – from the middle of the
1981-82 season through Hord’s entire senior year in 1982-83.
(4) Getting beaten by 12 points in OT vs. U. of L. in the Elite Eight in 1983.
(4) Ignominious loss to Georgetown in the 1984 Final Four.
(5) Unranked team in 1984-85 with Kenny Walker (Jr.), Roger Harden (Jr.), Winston Bennett
(Soph.), James Blackmon (Soph.) and Ed Davender (Fr.). (Sutton went 32-4 with a No. 3
ranking and an Elite Eight appearance with essentially the same team in 1985-86.)

Hord was a pussy. As Cal says today, UK isn't for everyone and it wasn't for Hord. No one may have had as much pressure on them as Givens and Lee at UK and they did alright, I'm sure Hall was just as hard on them as he was on Hord or any other player he coached at UK.

Let us not forget that he was damn close to winning it in '75 had Wooden not decided to play the sympathy card and announce his retirement before the Finals.

 

[WilsonPiCAT]

When you follow a certified basketball legend, you're asking for heavy pressure from all possible angles. The job simply wore Joe B. down. When you consider what happened at UCLA when Wooden retired (5 head coaches in 12 years), you have to realize that this could have happened to us. But Coach Hall had thick skin and led us through a dangerous time for 13 years and for that, he earned our greatest respect. As others have said, we could have really suffered had Coach Hall not maintained the gold standard!

 

[Chuckinden]

Joe B earned my respect in many ways. He was a Kentuckian, played for the Cats, coached the Cats, won a title, and followed a legend with success. Coach Hall is a true steward of the program, still a Kentuckian and never saying a disparaging word about the program or the coaches that have come and gone.

Joe B is my most favorite coach behind Rupp to ever coach here.

 

[bthaunert]

(5) Unranked team in 1984-85 with Kenny Walker (Jr.), Roger Harden (Jr.), Winston Bennett (Soph.), James Blackmon (Soph.) and Ed Davender (Fr.). (Sutton went 32-4 with a No. 3 ranking and an Elite Eight appearance with essentially the same team in 1985-86.)

That 84-85 team had 8 McDonalds All Americans.
The 83-84 team had 7 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 82-83 team had 7 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 81-82 team had 6 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 80-81 team had 6 McDonalds All-Americans.

He had a ton of talent in the 80's and had a Final Four, Elite Eight, Sweet 16 and 2 first weekend exits. Love Joe B, but he struggled with some serious talent.

 

[UpstateNYCat]

That 84-85 team had 8 McDonalds All Americans.
The 83-84 team had 7 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 82-83 team had 7 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 81-82 team had 6 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 80-81 team had 6 McDonalds All-Americans.

He had a ton of talent in the 80's and had a Final Four, Elite Eight, Sweet 16 and 2 first weekend exits. Love Joe B, but he struggled with some serious talent.

Bret Bearup. That's all you need to know what a farce McDonald's AA is.

 

[Chuckinden]

That 84-85 team had 8 McDonalds All Americans.
The 83-84 team had 7 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 82-83 team had 7 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 81-82 team had 6 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 80-81 team had 6 McDonalds All-Americans.

He had a ton of talent in the 80's and had a Final Four, Elite Eight, Sweet 16 and 2 first weekend exits. Love Joe B, but he struggled with some serious talent.

I agree, but back then only the best teams got in the tourney. That eliminated a lot of cinderella upsets of better teams early in the tourney.

Coach Hall is probably the most successful coach to follow a legend.

 

[awf]

Joe B. did not win enough games for the 5 stars players he had the fan base pretty much forced him out I thank, the coach down at Fla. St L. Hamiton was his assistance at that time, was a great recruiter.

IMHO Hall's recruiting went south with Leonard Hamilton. He was the recruiter that was bringing in the top talent.

 

[nickhorvathsuxazz]

Add in the fact Hall lost the Dream Game with Masters, Bowie, Turpin, Beal, Minniefield, Hurt, Walker. Many of the fans started turning on Hall at that point.

I don't believe Big Sam played in that '83 dream game...

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

This was a thread discussed last year about it.
https://kentucky.forums.rivals.com/...was-not-entirely-his-own-choice.194295/page-2

The $100 handshakes and dirtiness was not "rogue fans." Let's not be that group like UNC is right now.

And yes, the LHL won a Pulitzer in 1985 regarding issues while Hall was there. Link to that SI article refercing it. The NCAA did say that we cooperated more than anyone had and referenced that we came "four feet" from getting the death penalty.

https://www.si.com/vault/1989/05/29...operating-the-wildcats-stayed-their-execution

LA Times article from 85 talking about it.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-10-28/sports/sp-11801_1_kentucky-s-basketball

Since I was just starting in the Air Force around the 1985 stuff, and was in Germany for 2 yrs after that, I have never really been that familiar with that stuff. Pretty shocking to learn about all of that. But at least we cleaned house and took our punishment. I think this quote puts it best ""I don't think I've ever seen a higher level of cooperation," said NCAA associate executive director Steve Morgan, who announced the sanctions at an SRO press conference in Lexington."

Contrast that to how UNCheat is handling things, and also how Duke handled the Lance Thomas case.

 

[LeonThe Camel]

I don't believe Big Sam played in that '83 dream game...

Maybe not. Memory gets fuzzy after 9:00am.

 

[WilsonPiCAT]

Maybe not. Memory gets fuzzy after 9:00am.

Not only did Bowie not play, but 3 other of our McD/AAs scored a total of 4 points between them. Walker, Bearup, Harden. Throw in a 4th AA - Hord with 9 points - and you've got a total of 13 points out of 68 scored by the team.

 

[morgousky]

1. I love Coach Hall. I just don't think he was an elite coach. I love Tubby. Same thing. Cal is an elite coach. Coach Hall's NCAA track record was similar to that of Bill Self's.
2. It was even harder following Rupp because Rupp was undermining Hall behind the scenes at first.

Not saying you are, but I hope you're not comparing Tubby to Hall in any way.

Cal has 1 final four more than Hall but Halls NIT title cancels it out. Cal and Hall are essentially the same guy right now. Both have made multiple final fours and have won the championship. Hall was elite, make no mistake about it.

 

[morgousky]

That 84-85 team had 8 McDonalds All Americans.
The 83-84 team had 7 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 82-83 team had 7 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 81-82 team had 6 McDonalds All-Americans.
The 80-81 team had 6 McDonalds All-Americans.

He had a ton of talent in the 80's and had a Final Four, Elite Eight, Sweet 16 and 2 first weekend exits. Love Joe B, but he struggled with some serious talent.

Can you not say the same thing about Cal right now? Joe B is drilled by this fanbase while Cal is above the clouds. You'd think Cal was closer to Rupp the way this looks.

Totally a double standard.

 

[railroadkat_1]

(1) No. 8 U.K. loss to UAB 69-62 in the NCAA Second Round, 1981.
(2) No. 15 U.K. loss to Middle Tennessee 50-44 in the NCAA First Round, 1982.
(3) Hall’s terrible coaching of Derrick Hord that ruined an All-American – from the middle of the
1981-82 season through Hord’s entire senior year in 1982-83.
(4) Getting beaten by 12 points in OT vs. U. of L. in the Elite Eight in 1983.
(4) Ignominious loss to Georgetown in the 1984 Final Four.
(5) Unranked team in 1984-85 with Kenny Walker (Jr.), Roger Harden (Jr.), Winston Bennett
(Soph.), James Blackmon (Soph.) and Ed Davender (Fr.). (Sutton went 32-4 with a No. 3
ranking and an Elite Eight appearance with essentially the same team in 1985-86.)

Add in the fact Hall lost the Dream Game with Masters, Bowie, Turpin, Beal, Minniefield, Hurt, Walker. Many of the fans started turning on Hall at that point.

Ripcord you need to check the facts on Leon's comment! Sam Bowie was on the roster but never played because of his non-healing leg fracture
As far as Sutton goes a weak LSU team beat us and knocked us out of the tournament after beating them 3 times already that season.
Beating a great Houston team vs Akeem the dream in Rupp 74 to 67 in 1984. One of the loudest games I've ever attended at Rupp.

 

[Zakk Wyldcat]

The '81 and '82 NCAA losses are two of the more bizarre and inexplicable UK tournament defeats in school history. Very puzzling to this day.

 

[JHannibalSmith]

Fully agree with this. I was still living in Kentucky and was at UK during Hall's entire tenure. For those who say he underachieved looks at the man's record; three Final Fours, one title, one runner-up and he won the NIT when it was still a somewhat prestigious tournament. If you say Hall underachieved with the talent he had then you can make similar points about Cal. The bottom line is that it's incredibly difficult to win National Title no matter who you have on the roster. IMO, his two best coaching jobs were in 1973 and 1985. In 1985 he took an undersized team to the final 16 of the NCAA and beat UNLV with much less talent that they had that year. I used to see him on campus and he would always speak to students while he was headed to the Coliseum. The man deserves respect and he put up with a ton of abuse while coaching at UK. I think he simply got tired of coaching as 13 years is an eternity to be at UK.

And in that '85 Sweet 16 game we gave St John's all they wanted & might've actually won that game if not for a Chris Mullin finger to Kenny Walker's eye. We were actually up 7 at the time, I believe. Granted, the injury occurred early in the game & Walker came back to finish it. But, he was obviously affected by the eye poke & wasn't his usual dominant self. St John's ended up winning by 16 but we were down only 4 with less than 3 minutes to go. NC State awaited the winner & I seriously believe we would've beaten them & snuck into the final four as a 12 seed. And, we all remember where the 1985 final four was played, so who knows what might've happened. Maybe a different team of Wildcats would've been the Cinderella champs.

But, I was really proud of that team's tournament run. Similar to the Duke pre-game hype in 92 NOBODY gave us a shot to beat St John's & they were big favorites. And, rightfully so. They were loaded & had run through the Big East gauntlet, which was BRUTAL at the time. Three BE teams made the final four in 85 & if not for Georgetown I think St John's would've won it all that year.

 

[Ocornett]

I'm only 24, so I have no real information or insight as to why he stopped being the coach of our beloved Wildcats.

His last 3 years were Elite 8, Final 4, Sweet 16. Though he went 18-13 the last year, it seems like he was putting out good teams every year and was bringing in top talent?(I could be wrong). He was only in his mid to late 50's in age. What was the story behind him leaving? Was he pushed out or did he just want to leave? Was there too much pressure following Rupp?

Because he wanted to retire..

 

[bthaunert]

Can you not say the same thing about Cal right now? Joe B is drilled by this fanbase while Cal is above the clouds. You'd think Cal was closer to Rupp the way this looks.

Totally a double standard.

From a title perspective, you can absolutely say that. I have no problem being critical of Cal. One of the things with Joe B is after he won the title, he coached another 7 years with 1 Final Four and a ton of talent over that time period. It will be interesting to see how the next couple of years pan out for the Cats and if people start getting antsy if it doesn't go as well as anticipated.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

The truth:

Joe B. promised Katherine that he would retire at 55.

When he was 55 the team looked weak, so he stayed another year to make the next team a little better.


There you have it.

 

[UpstateNYCat]

The '81 and '82 NCAA losses are two of the more bizarre and inexplicable UK tournament defeats in school history. Very puzzling to this day.

Pretty much any school can say that, especially in today's MM. And people probably don't give Joe enough credit for the ballsy move he made in the FSU game during the '78 title run, benching a few of his starters to start the 2nd half.

I'm also of belief that Hall felt the wrath of the media and fans once Rupp was out of the picture. Who here remembers Musberger coming out with a report that Hall was to be fired back in the mid/late 70s?

I grew up during the Hall era and after Pitino, he's my favorite UK coach. Fans like to bitch about his style of coaching but look back at his earlier teams and they were pretty prolific Offensively, all w/out the shot clock and 3 pt. line.

 

[morgousky]

I wanted to add something because I feel the guy is just not given the credit he deserves.

Aside from being a great coach and under appreciated, he's a great man.

Anyone that wanted to could Call Joe B right now at his home and he's probably going to answer and talk basketball with you. My family has a small alumni chapter / group that contacted him in around 1997 about meeting with our high school basketball team all the way in Tennessee. He drove 5 hours to meet us at our local high school. Now tell me, is Tubby Smith or any coach who's won a title doing that? No. And not just no, Hell no.

Joe didn't know us at all, and after the team meeting was over he signed boxes and boxes of memorabilia for us. After that he asked my father about reelfoot lake which is about 30 minutes from my hometown. We called him that summer and asked if he'd like to go fishing with our family and he was back the next week, nice as could be, with a pole and tackle box. Lol.

Being so young at the time it was all just so surreal to me. He is absolutely the best, and I'm glad my family got to know him well over the next decade. The guy loves to fish. Lol. His stories are incredible, especially about Indiana and how much Knight would try and hammer us through the NCAA.

So hate to play myth buster, but Tubby is not the man Hall is, and Hall is on an elite tier with other Kentucky greats. Facts are facts.

Cal - 4 final fours, title.
Rick - 3 final fours, title.
Hall - 3 final fours, title, NIT title.

So sick of people underselling him.

 

[anon_9qtxg60vqzy0y]

Coach Hall wanted to go where the money is so he got himself a banking job.

Where legend has it that after a bank robbery, the alleged bank robbers escaped capture because Coach Hall told the guards not to shoot.

 

[~Keyser Soze~]

Can you not say the same thing about Cal right now? Joe B is drilled by this fanbase while Cal is above the clouds. You'd think Cal was closer to Rupp the way this looks.

Totally a double standard.

Huh? Cal has a much higher winning percentage, more Final Fours in 5 fewer years, and winning now is a lot harder than it was then. He gets no home tournament games. Cal has a much better resume in a shorter period of time.

 

[Bert Higginbotha]

I wanted to add something because I feel the guy is just not given the credit he deserves.

Aside from being a great coach and under appreciated, he's a great man.

Anyone that wanted to could Call Joe B right now at his home and he's probably going to answer and talk basketball with you. My family has a small alumni chapter / group that contacted him in around 1997 about meeting with our high school basketball team all the way in Tennessee. He drove 5 hours to meet us at our local high school. Now tell me, is Tubby Smith or any coach who's won a title doing that? No. And not just no, Hell no.

Joe didn't know us at all, and after the team meeting was over he signed boxes and boxes of memorabilia for us. After that he asked my father about reelfoot lake which is about 30 minutes from my hometown. We called him that summer and asked if he'd like to go fishing with our family and he was back the next week, nice as could be, with a pole and tackle box. Lol.

Being so young at the time it was all just so surreal to me. He is absolutely the best, and I'm glad my family got to know him well over the next decade. The guy loves to fish. Lol. His stories are incredible, especially about Indiana and how much Knight would try and hammer us through the NCAA.

So hate to play myth buster, but Tubby is not the man Hall is, and Hall is on an elite tier with other Kentucky greats. Facts are facts.

Cal - 4 final fours, title.
Rick - 3 final fours, title.
Hall - 3 final fours, title, NIT title.

So sick of people underselling him.

You know the Joe B. Hall that I know.

I have known the man since 1976. He is a class act. I talked to him last month about a DVD of the 1975 UK versus IU game. He said that if I sent it to him he would watch it ten times. I mailed it to him. I called him back a couple weeks later and he said he had only watched it five time, and we laughed our butts off about his white lie. Of course he never gave a time limit on the ten watches.

Some of the comments made in this thread I know for a fact are total fabrications; however, one just gets tired of trying to justify the truth.

 

[turkeywildturkey]

I'm only 24, so I have no real information or insight as to why he stopped being the coach of our beloved Wildcats.

His last 3 years were Elite 8, Final 4, Sweet 16. Though he went 18-13 the last year, it seems like he was putting out good teams every year and was bringing in top talent?(I could be wrong). He was only in his mid to late 50's in age. What was the story behind him leaving? Was he pushed out or did he just want to leave? Was there too much pressure following Rupp?

He was tired of the pressure of BBN. He'd just had enough..It wears on you.

 

[railroadkat_1]

Huh? Cal has a much higher winning percentage, more Final Fours in 5 fewer years, and winning now is a lot harder than it was then. He gets no home tournament games. Cal has a much better resume in a shorter period of time.

Everybody has an opinion and For the most part I like to read yours. Only Coach Rupp won multiple Championships leaving 4 other coaches tied at one apiece.

 

[Ukatz1]

Joe B deserves all the credit he gets. He is Kentucky basketball through and through. He played and coached at UK and has remained extremely loyal to the program. When he decided to resign from coaching the wildcats he did not do what other coaches have done and move on to coaching another team or rival. He only wanted what was best for the program. As a side note regarding his fishing, he and Bobby Knight were fishing buddies. There were several times when they came to Muhlenberg County to fish.

 

[Bluezilla]

There was a lot of backlash against Hall in southeastern Kentucky for his refusal to offer Phil Cox of Cawood a scholarship in 81. He was arguably the best player and definitely the best shooter to come out of the hills since the 50's. Didn't help matters that he went to Vanderbilt and lit up the scoreboard ending up their all time leading scorer.
Cox would have been the difference maker in 84.imo

 

[anon_q409idbs5m40a]

And in that '85 Sweet 16 game we gave St John's all they wanted & might've actually won that game if not for a Chris Mullin finger to Kenny Walker's eye. We were actually up 7 at the time, I believe. Granted, the injury occurred early in the game & Walker came back to finish it. But, he was obviously affected by the eye poke & wasn't his usual dominant self. St John's ended up winning by 16 but we were down only 4 with less than 3 minutes to go. NC State awaited the winner & I seriously believe we would've beaten them & snuck into the final four as a 12 seed. And, we all remember where the 1985 final four was played, so who knows what might've happened. Maybe a different team of Wildcats would've been the Cinderella champs.

But, I was really proud of that team's tournament run. Similar to the Duke pre-game hype in 92 NOBODY gave us a shot to beat St John's & they were big favorites. And, rightfully so. They were loaded & had run through the Big East gauntlet, which was BRUTAL at the time. Three BE teams made the final four in 85 & if not for Georgetown I think St John's would've won it all that year.

In reality it's a wonder that the '85 team won 18 games. Seriously undersized and undermanned.

 

[anon_q409idbs5m40a]

I wanted to add something because I feel the guy is just not given the credit he deserves.

Aside from being a great coach and under appreciated, he's a great man.

Anyone that wanted to could Call Joe B right now at his home and he's probably going to answer and talk basketball with you. My family has a small alumni chapter / group that contacted him in around 1997 about meeting with our high school basketball team all the way in Tennessee. He drove 5 hours to meet us at our local high school. Now tell me, is Tubby Smith or any coach who's won a title doing that? No. And not just no, Hell no.

Joe didn't know us at all, and after the team meeting was over he signed boxes and boxes of memorabilia for us. After that he asked my father about reelfoot lake which is about 30 minutes from my hometown. We called him that summer and asked if he'd like to go fishing with our family and he was back the next week, nice as could be, with a pole and tackle box. Lol.

Being so young at the time it was all just so surreal to me. He is absolutely the best, and I'm glad my family got to know him well over the next decade. The guy loves to fish. Lol. His stories are incredible, especially about Indiana and how much Knight would try and hammer us through the NCAA.

So hate to play myth buster, but Tubby is not the man Hall is, and Hall is on an elite tier with other Kentucky greats. Facts are facts.

Cal - 4 final fours, title.
Rick - 3 final fours, title.
Hall - 3 final fours, title, NIT title.

So sick of people underselling him.

Yep, and I don't think anyone had a harder job than Joe B. following Rupp. If one looks back around that time UCLA had Gary Cunningham and Gene Bartow and they didn't last as an example, but Hall was the only coach that followed a legend that lasted a significant amount of time.

 

[UKWildcatT]

Coach Hall was a healthy 56 year old man when he retired, 2 years younger than Cal currently is.

This is crazy to even think about because Hall's look and demeanor were about 10 years older than he seemed

 

[~Keyser Soze~]

This is crazy to even think about because Hall's look and demeanor were about 10 years older than he seemed

UK coaches age like presidents.