Weren't there rumors that Joe B Hall stepping down after 1985 was not entirely his own choice?

[BigBluePhantom]

Handshakes and other stuff were going on long before Eddie arrived. It was happening at all of the big programs. Neither Hall nor Sutton were involved but they both knew it was going on. Much like Pitino knew what was going on at Menardi Hall and all of the UNC coaches knew what was going there with AFAM. It's just the way things were and still are some places. The Emery package was an absolute set up but it started the investigation that eventually uncovered a lot of stuff that really was going on. The fact that it was on Sutton and Casey's watch was just bad luck.

 

[ColonelCat]

Back then, we called him "JOE B. GONE".

 

[Estil]

Someone please correct if I'm wrong, but didn't the LHL win a Pulitzer Prize in 1985 for their story about the $100 handshakes going on in the program?

Let me first say that i think joe is a decent man and I'm not implicating him in anything but what if the negative story, unhappy fan base, and maybe thinking it was time to get out before the shizz hit he fan (probation in1989) were more than enough reasons to leave?

As Sutton and even Jimmy Valentino right around the end of the 80s can tell ya, even if the coach (or in JimmyV's case AD) didn't personally do anything wrong, well...how did that famous deskplate on Truman's desk go...?

 

[CastleRubric]

I concur. To this day I could beat that G-town player named Graham with a ball bat for his "in your face" antics.

I do believe that was Michael Graham - had the T Shirt under his jersey and was laughing at UK players up and down the court

I concur

I'd better stop talking about this particular game now…………EVEN THE DAMN GREEN FLOOR IN SEATTLE PISSED ME OFF

 

[LaCat70]

That second half almost killed me.

Me too.

 

[TeoJ]

Yeah as much as we want to complain about lack of penalties for UNC/UofL, the ncaa tried to look away for a while. The final 4 was in Lexington that year and UK was/is a cash cow. It took a planted package that just happened to pop open with cash falling out to catch UK "red handed."

Uk probably did a lot of things no doubt,but the emory package was not one of them.

 

[GOING FOR #9]

Gee, sounds a lot like Tubby's final few years. But perhaps like Hall (and indeed Harry Truman!) Tubby too will gradually gain that same level of respect that Hall has now.

Tubby and hall both won championships after following a (wait while I vomit in my mouth) HOF coach. Both hit walls in the elite 8 in years they shoulda been to FF.

 

[chevyman 50]

Joe B. and his assistance coaches got great players but did not get to the final four enough, I can remember he always had the program in his hand, he was a long time assistance to coach Rupp.

 

[rupp876]

Someone please correct if I'm wrong, but didn't the LHL win a Pulitzer Prize in 1985 for their story about the $100 handshakes going on in the program?

Let me first say that i think joe is a decent man and I'm not implicating him in anything but what if the negative story, unhappy fan base, and maybe thinking it was time to get out before the shizz hit he fan (probation in1989) were more than enough reasons to leave?

 

[rupp876]

Someone please correct if I'm wrong, but didn't the LHL win a Pulitzer Prize in 1985 for their story about the $100 handshakes going on in the program?

Let me first say that i think joe is a decent man and I'm not implicating him in anything but what if the negative story, unhappy fan base, and maybe thinking it was time to get out before the shizz hit he fan (probation in1989) were more than enough reasons to leave?

The LHL did win a Pulitzer prize for that series of lies they printed. None of their sources backed them up after printing. Many former players were quite angry over misquotes and sheer fabrications. The NCAA turned over every rock and were frustrated to not find earth shattering violations. The LHL series lead to the continued witch hunt that culminated under Sutton. Research will tell you that whole scandal lacked much proof itself.

 

[Estil]

Yet we got the Kentucky's Shame cover and I've yet to see UNC's.

 

[irishcat1965]

The only difference between the Joe B era and the Tubby era was, Joe had Leonard Hamilton recruiting for him.

Actually Hall had 3 final fours, Tubby one.

 

[Blue63Madison]

Actually Hall had 3 final fours, Tubby one.

Because of Hamilton's recruiting. That was my point.

 

[Poetax]

With you on everything but the St. John's loss. That was the rare "Cinderella" Sweet 16 run for us. St. John's was supposed to smack us.

Plus Kenny Walker who was having a MVP type of tournament got poked in the eye by Chris Mullins and had to leave the game for 3 or 4 minutes . We were up and lost the lead (St Johns was up 39-38 at half) and it went downhill after that. St Johns after our game was 30-3, while we were 18-13. We finished the season 16-12 and somehow made the tournament but I think making that run by beating Washington and Nevada Las Vegas, and a great first half against St Johns, if there was a push going on, probably made Joe feel better about leaving especially after the 1984 collapse.

 

[Levibooty]

The thing that Hall did but is seldom acknowledged is he integrated Kentucky basketball and that was at that time not all that welcomed by some of our loudest fans. I can remember some really bigoted people saying some pretty nasty stuff back then.

 

[Rockford]

79 UK Grad here... knew some people back in the day.

Hall was not forced out. Otis Singletary was Pres and Cliff Hagan was AD, Hall had their backing.

Lots of complaining, yes. To me reached its height in 77 when we fell to UNC in EE for a 26-4 record.

Lots more complaining after we won in 78 that we did not win another soon with all the talent recruited. Sounds familiar I think.

Forced out... no. Had the backing of people who counted.

Remember at UK, the most popular people are the backup QB and the next basketball coach.

 

[shutzhund]

A friend of mine got divorced back then because he and his wife argued constantly about Joe B. And yes, I'm serious.

Those two were seriously screwed up.

 

[TeoJ]

Because of Hamilton's recruiting. That was my point.

Hamilton's recruiting was very good no doubt,but Tubby coming in was percieved as being a great recruiter coach.

 

[Blue Decade]

The thing that Hall did but is seldom acknowledged is he integrated Kentucky basketball and that was at that time not all that welcomed by some of our loudest fans. I can remember some really bigoted people saying some pretty nasty stuff back then.

Joe B. Hall followed a legend, but Hall was a great coach in his own right. He won a NC. He hired a great staff, dominated our conference. Hall was disliked by the press and savaged by the newspaper because he didn't take any crap. Not unlike Calipari, who is also despised by our newspaper. Hall did not integrate Kentucky basketball. Coach Rupp did that with Reggie Warford and Tom Payne. Because of disinformation in the media about Coach Rupp, this needs to be clarified. I don't know if this is the only reason Coach Hall retired, but it was 1 of the big reasons. It was linked to the reason Otis Singletary and Cliff Hagan retired. I know a couple old guys who used to work in the local consulting business, who helped UK investigate. Had something to do with Fed investigation of big money flowing as extra income from ticket sales to UK officials. At the time, it was a common practice. Their mistake was failing to report as taxable income to the IRS. Cost these guys some money, but big scandal was avoided because all these guys were close to retirement. Maybe Hall's wife's health played a role, I don't know about that part.

 

[Blue Decade]

Hamilton's recruiting was very good no doubt,but Tubby coming in was percieved as being a great recruiter coach.

Hall was a great steward for our basketball program in those days. He put together a strong staff. Leonard Hamilton was and still is a great recruiter. Hall himself was a solid recruiter because he built good relationships with high school coaches and sold the Kentucky brand, which in those days was the fast break and aggressive offensive play. Hall's weakness as a coach was on the defensive end, where he tried to mix man and zone defenses rather than recruiting great defensive athletes. Calipari's style is recruit great athletes with defensive upside and teach them to play great man defense. The reason Calipari's teams are always 5 times better by March is because our man defense gets so much better by March through persistent teaching by our coaches. Hall's teams did not always get better in February and March, defense being a big reason. But Hall was 1 of the top college coaches of those times. Since then, the game has changed and athletic defense dominates.

 

[Levibooty]

Joe B. Hall followed a legend, but Hall was a great coach in his own right. He won a NC. He hired a great staff, dominated our conference. Hall was disliked by the press and savaged by the newspaper because he didn't take any crap. Not unlike Calipari, who is also despised by our newspaper. Hall did not integrate Kentucky basketball. Coach Rupp did that with Reggie Warford and Tom Payne. Because of disinformation in the media about Coach Rupp, this needs to be clarified. I don't know if this is the only reason Coach Hall retired, but it was 1 of the big reasons. It was linked to the reason Otis Singletary and Cliff Hagan retired. I know a couple old guys who used to work in the local consulting business, who helped UK investigate. Had something to do with Fed investigation of big money flowing as extra income from ticket sales to UK officials. At the time, it was a common practice. Their mistake was failing to report as taxable income to the IRS. Cost these guys some money, but big scandal was avoided because all these guys were close to retirement. Maybe Hall's wife's health played a role, I don't know about that part.

I can't hardly buy Rupp integrated UK basketball Payne was a no show and Warford did not play for Rupp. I believe you are in a very small minority that thinks Hall did not integrate UK basketball. Rupp retired in 72 and Warford was playing in Drakesboro in 72. For the record I don't think Rupp was racist but misrepresenting history will not change people's minds about that despite the media hack job they did on Rupp.

 

[Ripcord65]

I was around. I was never a fan of Joe B. I have always resented the fact that he ruined Derrick Hord. I thought Joe B. was much like Tubby - a very nice man and a mediocre basketball coach. I said all of that to say . . . I would have been paying attention, and if it had been mentioned at all, to any degree, among the fan base that Joe B. was being or had been forced out, I think I would have heard about it -- and I never heard a whiff of any such thing. Just FYI.

 

[Bkocats]

I only vaguely remember the Joe B days - but I do recall people around me saying they wish he were gone, and getting excited about Sutton coming in.

 

[UKHistory]

While it was tough to follow Rupp ( who kept his own office and his television show when Hall was coach) but what was worse is that Indiana and Bobby Knight won two titles and Denny won one and went to multiple Final Fours while Hall was at UK.

Throw in UNC gaining on us for the all time wins and the SEC improving in basketball and it was a challenging time for a good coach going against hall of famers in Knight and Crum at their peak.

And I am not counting the 86 and 87 titles won by UofL and IU respectively--I am only speaking about the pressure Hall had. Sutton inherited the other.

 

[JC CATS]

LOL ... exactly.

Wha!!!! I think Eddie brought the mess with him

 

[MegaBlue05]

Remember at UK, the most popular people are the backup QB and the next basketball coach.

Truth.

I realized that when we had a few insane people calling for Cal's head in 2013, 2014 and 2016. Winning a title every year is hard.

 

[rodserling]

My wife and I were attending UK in '85. We loved Joe B., as did most students. We weren't old enough to remember Rupp. The older fans expected Joe to be Rupp. It is impossible to follow a legend. The same fate will curse whomever follows Cal. Joe was vastly superior to Tubby. Look what we got to follow Joe, a drunk (sounds familiar) and possibly a cheater. Joe B. is and was a good man, a Kentucky native, a UK player and coach. Those who maligned him have hopefully changed their opinions of the man. As for being forced out. I have a bad memory but I don't remember those feelings around campus. Of course, who knows what happened behind the scenes. I really think Joe was just tired of the stress, had all the money he wanted and retired happy at a pretty young age. The one time I got to meet him, he seemed to be a very genuine person. Personally, I'll always love the man.

POSSIBLY a cheater? Geez!!!!!! Sutton got away with a scandal that nearly ruined Casey's coaching career, ruined Eric Manuel's playing career and gave us Kentucky's Shame. Then went on to have a coaching job while we were under the ncaa's vengence. Something some of todays most flagrent cheaters will never know.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

POSSIBLY a cheater? Geez!!!!!! Sutton got away with a scandal that nearly ruined Casey's coaching career, ruined Eric Manuel's playing career and gave us Kentucky's Shame. Then went on to have a coaching job while we were under the ncaa's vengence. Something some of todays most flagrent cheaters will never know.

What I meant was, little was proven and it was Casey who took the hit. Hence, Sutton could move on and Casey couldn't. I'll stick with possibly.

 

[BlueSince92]

LHL won a prize for journalism???????

Now I've heard everything. Used Charmin reads better than that paper.

 

[BigBluePhantom]

Obviously a lot of people throwing out opinions based on bad info. Of course, Sutton and Casey knew stuff was going on behind the scenes but so did Hall and Hamilton. The things our boosters were doing were no different than what was going on at UCLA and UNC. Smaller schools were cheating too but weren't nearly as successful at it. Sutton didn't ruin Manual's career. He should have gone to jr college due to prop 48. We found a work around and got him in here. He had to leave after one year but he had every opportunity to play at the next level. He tried out for the Nets but didn't make the team. The only person who was more celebrated coming out of high school was Lebron. There is absolutely no reason for him to have regressed while playing at Oklahoma City college.

The only thing that made Sutton any different was his drinking problem and the fact that he was the coach when we got caught. The drinking never caused UK a problem and he had nothing to do with us getting caught. If you want to blame him for something, blame him for us losing Kemp. He was run off because little Sean stole a necklace and it was pinned on him.

I don't know Joe Hall personally but I am friends with Tubby and Donna. Despite that, I would still say that Hall accomplished more than Tubby while he was the head coach. Could have had a lot to do with his assistants. I would rate Hamilton way above anybody who coached under Tubby. But that is part of it, Tubby was extremely loyal to his mediocre(imo) assistants and I believe that was the biggest part of his downfall here. Barnhart was putting pressure on him to shake up his staff and he refused and then caught a jet to Minnesota.

 

[Hjack]

The Middle Tennessee and Georgetown losses devastated him, and the entire fan base.

All of us who knew him knew that he was going to quit.

 

[Elliott Tim]

Hall went to three final fours and won a title all within his own system and personnel. I know people like to compare it, but Tubby isn't anywhere near Halls level. Nowhere near.

Hall had it hard because he followed Rupp. Tubby had it hard because he just simply isn't a great collegiate coach.

 

[Elliott Tim]

The Middle Tennessee and Georgetown losses devastated him, and the entire fan base.

All of us who knew him knew that he was going to quit.

That Georgetown team was the Detroit Pistons of college basketball We were intimadated by them.

 

[Estil]

The thing that Hall did but is seldom acknowledged is he integrated Kentucky basketball and that was at that time not all that welcomed by some of our loudest fans. I can remember some really bigoted people saying some pretty nasty stuff back then.

Well actually Tom Payne was our first black player in 1971...and (this is the part you don't often hear) Rupp gave about ten or so formal scholarship offers to black players before that going back to 1964 (and that's not even counting the informal offers). Though I suppose it was under the Hall Administration it really caught on...and really those bigoted people really needed to get with the times and understand we needed the best players (regardless of race or where they come from) possible to have the best chance possible at a championship.

 

[JPScott]

Yeah as much as we want to complain about lack of penalties for UNC/UofL, the ncaa tried to look away for a while. The final 4 was in Lexington that year and UK was/is a cash cow. It took a planted package that just happened to pop open with cash falling out to catch UK "red handed."

I know this is repeated often but let's not perpetuate an inaccuracy. There was no cash 'falling out' of the envelope, despite what some in the media (most notably John Feinstein) would like to have their readers believe.

The testimony of the Emery employee was that the flap of the envelope had come open, and that upon further investigation he looked inside and found money. If anything 'popped', as described in the testimony it was the flap.

Now I've been told by people who have worked in the industry that in such a situation, the shipper would generally just reseal the package and send it on its way.

But not this particular package. This package they made a big deal of it, taking the money out and counting it as a group, then resealing and sending it to the recipient, although they didn't actually do that either. The delivery man took half of an 8-hour shift trying to 'deliver' the package (strange by itself for a professional delivery man), while at the same time squawking over the company radio not only the sender and name of the recipient but the fact that there was money inside (another strange action).

If the people at Emery intended for word to get out that UK was sending money to a high profile recruit, they couldn't have tried any harder.

Whether this was a setup or not, I don't know. But the strange actions of the Emery employees don't discount that as a real possibility.

 

[JPScott]

I can't hardly buy Rupp integrated UK basketball Payne was a no show and Warford did not play for Rupp. I believe you are in a very small minority that thinks Hall did not integrate UK basketball. Rupp retired in 72 and Warford was playing in Drakesboro in 72. For the record I don't think Rupp was racist but misrepresenting history will not change people's minds about that despite the media hack job they did on Rupp.

To say that Rupp didn't integrate UK basketball is ridiculous. And it's not misrepresenting history to say so. Sorry if you want to say Tom Payne was a 'no show'. He was indeed UK's first black varsity player. (BTW, trivia, who was UK 1st black JV player ?)

Now granted because Payne left early for the pros and there were no others on the 1971-72 freshman team, Hall basically had to start over again. Of course this wasn't anything new since Hall had been Rupp's lead recruiter for a number of years anyway.

As to the issues and resistance that Hall faced in integrating his squad, one can assume that Rupp had it even harder, considering that 1.) by the time Hall was doing it the second time around the rest of the SEC was also integrating and 2.) Hall didn't have the same stigma in the black community that Rupp had.

I believe I've seen Jack Givens comment that he likely would not have attended UK if Rupp was coach, mainly due to pressure from the black community, even though Givens said that he personally had good interactions with Rupp.

 

[preacherfan]

Obviously a lot of people throwing out opinions based on bad info. Of course, Sutton and Casey knew stuff was going on behind the scenes but so did Hall and Hamilton. The things our boosters were doing were no different than what was going on at UCLA and UNC. Smaller schools were cheating too but weren't nearly as successful at it. Sutton didn't ruin Manual's career. He should have gone to jr college due to prop 48. We found a work around and got him in here. He had to leave after one year but he had every opportunity to play at the next level. He tried out for the Nets but didn't make the team. The only person who was more celebrated coming out of high school was Lebron. There is absolutely no reason for him to have regressed while playing at Oklahoma City college.

The only thing that made Sutton any different was his drinking problem and the fact that he was the coach when we got caught. The drinking never caused UK a problem and he had nothing to do with us getting caught. If you want to blame him for something, blame him for us losing Kemp. He was run off because little Sean stole a necklace and it was pinned on him.

I don't know Joe Hall personally but I am friends with Tubby and Donna. Despite that, I would still say that Hall accomplished more than Tubby while he was the head coach. Could have had a lot to do with his assistants. I would rate Hamilton way above anybody who coached under Tubby. But that is part of it, Tubby was extremely loyal to his mediocre(imo) assistants and I believe that was the biggest part of his downfall here. Barnhart was putting pressure on him to shake up his staff and he refused and then caught a jet to Minnesota.

I don't believe for a second that Tubby was "loyal" to a staff that he didn't take to Minny with him and, according to Reggie, never offered to help them get a job. The reason Tubby didn't shake up his staff, in my uninformed opinion, was because he didn't want the AD telling him what to do. He said that he had issues with Mitch after he left but then wouldn't say what those were.

 

[TeoJ]

To say that Rupp didn't integrate UK basketball is ridiculous. And it's not misrepresenting history to say so. Sorry if you want to say Tom Payne was a 'no show'. He was indeed UK's first black varsity player. (BTW, trivia, who was UK 1st black JV player ?)

Now granted because Payne left early for the pros and there were no others on the 1971-72 freshman team, Hall basically had to start over again. Of course this wasn't anything new since Hall had been Rupp's lead recruiter for a number of years anyway.

As to the issues and resistance that Hall faced in integrating his squad, one can assume that Rupp had it even harder, considering that 1.) by the time Hall was doing it the second time around the rest of the SEC was also integrating and 2.) Hall didn't have the same stigma in the black community that Rupp had.

I believe I've seen Jack Givens comment that he likely would not have attended UK if Rupp was coach, mainly due to pressure from the black community, even though Givens said that he personally had good interactions with Rupp.

Jon,didn't Darryl Bishop from the football team walk on?

 

[TeoJ]

I think the BBN was shocked when coach Hall resigned,not prepared for it.Now some we're not upset.

 

[JPScott]

Jon,didn't Darryl Bishop from the football team walk on?

Yes Bishop walked on along with Elmore Stephens, from the football team during Rupp's final season at UK.

Bishop, BTW, is the answer to my trivia question as being UK's first black JV basketball player. He was the third leading scorer on the 1969-70 freshman team, but stuck with football.

Bishop was named an All-American in high school basketball by Parade Magazine, so he had talent in the sport.