What has caused the big man shortage at UK since 2015?

[RunninRichie]

from 2009-2015 UK has had these bigs
Cousins
Jones
Davis
Noel
Randle
Cauley-Stein
Towns
Lee
Poythress
Johnson
Harrelson
Patterson
Orton
Kanter
Since 2015 UK has gotten these bigs
Washington
Skal
Montgomery
Adebayo
Richards
Humphries
Travis
Sestina
so what happened? UK used to be big man U there’s been a big drop off in big men in the last 5 years.

 

[TheWyldKat]

Bigs want to show their skills on the perimeter and Cal runs his bigs at the 5 to catch lob dunks, put backs, rebounds etc. I think this is a big part of the problem. Other coaches exploiting this with game film.

 

[WeWant9]

I would think a combo of style of play, negative recruiting, and pay for play. I’d put it in that order too.

 

[LXA_chop]

Bigs want to show their skills on the perimeter and Cal runs his bigs at the 5 to catch lob dunks, put backs, rebounds etc. I think this is a big part of the problem. Other coaches exploiting this with game film.

This.... other coaches are simply saying, look at KAT and AD, they both have flourished in the NBA with an outside game. At UK neither got to show that part of their game. Come here and show you can play like that.

 

[Creed Bratton]

Bigs want to show their skills on the perimeter and Cal runs his bigs at the 5 to catch lob dunks, put backs, rebounds etc. I think this is a big part of the problem. Other coaches exploiting this with game film.

I commented on this in another thread but Duke doesn't run their bigs as face up guys and have gotten several elite guys in the last few years.

 

[Smashcat]

I would think a combo of style of play, negative recruiting, and pay for play. I’d put it in that order too.

Pay for play is #1. Kids like Wiseman, Zion, Ayton, Bagley, and you should be able to name a few more, were compromised.

 

[WCSPlayedWRInHS]

This.... other coaches are simply saying, look at KAT and AD, they both have flourished in the NBA with an outside game. At UK neither got to show that part of their game. Come here and show you can play like that.

Imagine that Cal recruits so good that the only negative a coach can come up with is hey, those two guys who got drafted #1 overall hit some threes now that they’re in the nba.

 

[TheWyldKat]

This.... other coaches are simply saying, look at KAT and AD, they both have flourished in the NBA with an outside game. At UK neither got to show that part of their game. Come here and show you can play like that.

Yep You are correct. I really don’t feel that it’s accurate. Even though Nick played at the five on the block he also would come to the top of the key with pick and rolls, taking mid range jumper‘s quite often. He wasn’t just glued to the block. I personally like the way coach does his offense. Running the bigs off of lob dunks, bigs running the floor makes for exciting bball

 

[Real Deal 2]

Orlando Antigua would be a pretty good guess. UK has not signed a consensus top 5 player in HS class since 15, Clarke was a Jr. who came into this class.
Someone told me that Orlando and Kenny were good cop/bad cop. Kenny telling T Jones and Wiltjer that they needed to work harder, get tougher (KAT)
Terrence Jones was recruited by Kenny Payne for years, he commits to UW, Antigua is on the phone moments later consoling the kid telling him it was ok, he can still come to UK. No big deal. Orlando called him from Ky Oaks and talked him down, not Kenny who had the major tie and had recruited Terrence for the most part. Antigua was the Bill Keightley of now, confidant of the players. Cal would get on them and berate, Kenny would work them hard and Orlando was encourager, great communicator.

Cal/Antigua/Kenny Payne were great recruiters and great team. Perfect mesh.
The Justus/Barbee duo is not even in the same ballpark. Lost Antigua about the time Capel went to Duke, it was a perfect storm of the changing landscapes.

Cal has a terrible offense, his Stop sign mentality, micro manage every possession is to blame too.
He needs to a real change in this. Already cost him 2-3 NC's.

 

[docholiday51]

Pay for play is #1. Kids like Wiseman, Zion, Ayton, Bagley, and you should be able to name a few more, were compromised.

This plus the negative recruiting and I think Skal's situation had much to do with it.He didn't work out,I think he was mis-evaluated and misused for most of his year here and it had lasting effects.

 

[kyjeff1]

I'm not buying the 3 point shooting thing. What you do in college makes no difference to NBA personnel. All they need to know is that you have measurables, length and the ability to shoot.

Any kid that buys the negative recruiting pitch from other coaches is just not very smart. Every big man that played for Cal at UK has literally played in the NBA. That trumps everything else. It doesn't take a genius to know that Cal puts big guys into the NBA with big contracts better than any other coach, so who GAS about shooting threes at that point?

Also, most of the guys on the list in the OP have shot threes while at UK. Some of them shot quite well too.

Honestly, the only guy that can explain this, is Cal. He is very honest with these kids when he is recruiting them, so obviously there is something being said that turns these kids off, but I don't know what that would be. I bet Cal knows, but I doubt he will spill the beans on it.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

What happened? Maybe the greatest 5 or 6-year run of big men at one program in history from Cousins to Davis to Noel to Randle to Towns proved impossible for anyone to match.

Washington, Adebayo, Skal, Richards, maybe Jackson and Ware eventually: That's a pretty decent collection of NBA-level front court talent for any program. It just isn't arguably the greatest five-year run in college hoops history (UCLA and Georgetown had great front court players but without one-and-done they didn't have a new great front court player virtually every year.)

 

[Smashcat]

This plus the negative recruiting and I think Skal's situation had much to do with it.He didn't work out,I think he was mis-evaluated and misused for most of his year here and it had lasting effects.

I can't disagree.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Not playing Skal to his strengths burned us for a few years.

I get why Cal used him the way he did: you can always take jump shots later but it's harder to develop a foundation for taking contact once you're in the league. Pushing Skal into some better habits and out of his bad ones was the priority while he was here.

Still, recruits don't care about nuance. They care about final results, and the final result for Skal was a letdown.

 

[Cawood86]

 

[Smashcat]

maybe Jackson and Ware eventually:

The funny part is that Ware trashed the #1 player in the country, Mobley, a couple of months ago. If Mobley had signed with UK, and Ware outplayed him, the negative Nellies here would have been trashing Cal for signing an overrated Mobley and asking why we didn't go after Ware.

 

[kyups01]

Nick Richards slow progression didnt help

 

[docholiday51]

The funny part is that Ware trashed the #1 player in the country, Mobley, a couple of months ago. If Mobley had signed with UK, and Ware outplayed him, the negative Nellies here would have been trashing Cal for signing an overrated Mobley and asking why we didn't go after Ware.

Cal is right 75 or 80 % of the time,which is better than anyone else could do using his model,when he does miss the fallout is magnified because all the other top programs use it against him/us.When you add in the illegal money floating around(that the NCAA chooses to ignore) we still do amazingly well.

 

[Cal-4-Three]

This.... other coaches are simply saying, look at KAT and AD, they both have flourished in the NBA with an outside game. At UK neither got to show that part of their game. Come here and show you can play like that.

Yet they both still went #1 in the draft which is what recruits want to do. LOL

 

[seccats04]

This plus the negative recruiting and I think Skal's situation had much to do with it.He didn't work out,I think he was mis-evaluated and misused for most of his year here and it had lasting effects.

We've mis-evaluated on a lot of recruits here lately. It's almost like we don't scout a lot of these kids. Just see how many stars are next to their name. We've had some good surprises too, like SGA and Herro, but we've had way more overrated than underrated since 2015. Diallo, Gabriel, SKJ, Green, Hagans, EJ, Whitney, Juzang, etc. What has changed in that time frame? The assistant coaches.

 

[RunninRichie]

Nick Richards slow progression didnt help

Wrong, show a recruit Nicks freshman and sophomore year highlight reel (a few blocks and garbage time alley oops) and then show him Nick’s junior year highlights (hooks, post moves, midrange jumpers) if anything it helps so did IQ and PJ it shows it’s ok to stay and develop into a great player at UK

 

[bnewt]

really no idea shy the drought, the offense has to be a part of it, just too much standing around and when the big guys are open down low, the guards don't or can't make the right pass. It either pulls them out of position or it is late

 

[GLR5555]

The strong ass offers started rolling in.

 

[fatguy87]

We haven't signed many top 10 big men prospects since 2015. Skal and Bam were the only two. The former was a total bust because he couldn't snag a rebound. Derek Willis was extremely productive from the 4 during his last two seasons, taking up a roster spot.

PJ, Montgomery, and Richards took time. Richards and Washington ended up being outstanding in their ultimate season, while we never got to experience EJ make the jump. Because they take time, they also take a roster spot for multiple seasons. We have a number of variables at work here. Trying to sign top guys and have returning players is a difficult balance to strike.

 

[KyFaninNC]

We've mis-evaluated on a lot of recruits here lately. It's almost like we don't scout a lot of these kids. Just see how many stars are next to their name. We've had some good surprises too, like SGA and Herro, but we've had way more overrated than underrated since 2015. Diallo, Gabriel, SKJ, Green, Hagans, EJ, Whitney, Juzang, etc. What has changed in that time frame? The assistant coaches.

I am to the point that I agree with you. Something changed and that is the common denominator. While I don’t know how much Cal himself does the analyzing, been a lot of misses since 2015, and not small misses, but huge misses.

 

[docholiday51]

We've mis-evaluated on a lot of recruits here lately. It's almost like we don't scout a lot of these kids. Just see how many stars are next to their name. We've had some good surprises too, like SGA and Herro, but we've had way more overrated than underrated since 2015. Diallo, Gabriel, SKJ, Green, Hagans, EJ, Whitney, Juzang, etc. What has changed in that time frame? The assistant coaches.

Agree on almost all,with the exception of Juzang.He will be a solid player who will average double digits scoring maybe next season.When I said in an earlier post "Cal's model" he seems to recruit athletes and * rankings above need or basketball skills.It works out for him/us way more than it doesn't. The usual downside is that we get overloaded at one position or another and thin somewhere else. Herro and SGA weren't great athletes but they had basketball skills and basketball IQ when they got here,all they had to do was adjust to the speed of the college game. Some of the others you mention were back-up plans from day one

 

[TBCat]

Pay for play is #1. Kids like Wiseman, Zion, Ayton, Bagley, and you should be able to name a few more, were compromised.

This is the answer. Our problems recruiting the top 10 players started in 2015 and they don't just restrict to bigs. We struggle getting top caliber PG, SG, SF, PF, etc. Style of play can't be the reason.

What changed is about 2015 shoe companies and agents and even AAU coaches around the player have started ramping up their efforts to cash it on the kid. If you are a AAU coach to a top recruit you want to maintain your influence over the kid. Cal controls his program so those guys will get cut off if they come here. So the clinger-ons are pushing their kids away from UK. They want to stash the kid somewhere that they can still control them. Schools like Texas, Arizona and Oregon are becoming top spots for the top 10 recruits now.

We can even see some of the effect of this with the kids that do come here. More and more Cal is having to battle with parents, AAU coaches and other, for the loyalty of the kid. Whitney was just one example of that.

 

[kyups01]

Wrong, show a recruit Nicks freshman and sophomore year highlight reel (a few blocks and garbage time alley oops) and then show him Nick’s junior year highlights (hooks, post moves, midrange jumpers) if anything it helps so did IQ and PJ it shows it’s ok to stay and develop into a great player at UK

Wrong! Recruits view us as a one and done school...not 3 and done.

 

[RunninRichie]

Wrong! Recruits view us as a one and done school...not 3 and done.

Keion Brooks’ dad straight up said that IQ’s development played a huge role in him coming back

 

[villefan76]

Umm, we lost Antigua.

 

[Oboro3]

We have had a 5-star center on our roster every year since 2015-2016 season. We had Skal, Bam and then Richards for each year...

I don't see any issue with us signing top big men...

 

[kyups01]

Keion Brooks’ dad straight up said that IQ’s development played a huge role in him coming back

Brooks ain't a big

 

[HoptownCat93]

People underestimate talent identification...and how it matter MUCH more with bigs.

A 6'5 8th grader or freshman may dominate early....but then stop growing and doesn't work on other skills....then he's just an undersized center. Then think about an Anthony Davis...hits a late growth spurt and then all the coaches rush in to sign him.

Guys that are 6'10 probably aren't 6'10 when they're 14-16 nor fully grown. There was a kid in Hoptown who couldn't play JV...grew from 6'5 to 7'0 in one off-season. Made varsity and has D! offers now playing at John A Logan. He's not skilled at all and needs muscle...but he's getting better every game he plays. The kid has a WKU offer. His freshman year Enworth Tennessee came to Hoptown with Jordan Bone and a freshman James Wiseman on the bench....Hoptown blew them out.

Coach O probably had a good handle and knowledge about the best bigs early on...he'd get in on them from the start. You can see big men start off the class ranked high...but fall once everyone catches up with them physically...or you see the late growth spurt kids shoot up the board.

It seems like we are getting in late and not identifying the best bigs and they're already sold on another coach. Justus got in on Wiseman....and thought that was gonna save him.

 

[docholiday51]

This is the answer. Our problems recruiting the top 10 players started in 2015 and they don't just restrict to bigs. We struggle getting top caliber PG, SG, SF, PF, etc. Style of play can't be the reason.

What changed is about 2015 shoe companies and agents and even AAU coaches around the player have started ramping up their efforts to cash it on the kid. If you are a AAU coach to a top recruit you want to maintain your influence over the kid. Cal controls his program so those guys will get cut off if they come here. So the clinger-ons are pushing their kids away from UK. They want to stash the kid somewhere that they can still control them. Schools like Texas, Arizona and Oregon are becoming top spots for the top 10 recruits now.

We can even see some of the effect of this with the kids that do come here. More and more Cal is having to battle with parents, AAU coaches and other, for the loyalty of the kid. Whitney was just one example of that.

This is similar to what happened to Tubby and the AAU circuit years ago.He got blackballed for not playing "the game" whatever it was and his recruiting fell off. Cal works harder so he is holding his own but his success has been curbed.

 

[BassProCat]

Bigs want to show their skills on the perimeter and Cal runs his bigs at the 5 to catch lob dunks, put backs, rebounds etc. I think this is a big part of the problem. Other coaches exploiting this with game film.

sounds like Jackson is perfect then.

 

[Ben101er]

I think it is a little bit Cal's fault, and a little bit of AAU. The AAU lets these 6'10" kids play out on the perimeter and shoot anytime they want. It makes them want to be guards. But, Cal exacerbates the problem by promoting "positionless basketball" and then plays them in the post. Part of the issue has been that we have had Nick for the past three years and he wasn't a kid that was going to go out to the 3 pt line and shoot. Cal played him where he would be effective, and I think other coaches use that against Cal by pointing out that Nick was a low post player, and that the recruit would be stuck down on the low block if he went to UK. I don't necessarily think this is true, but all kids are going by is the last 3 years, when Nick was on the floor.

 

[jimmybuffet123]

$$$$$$$$$

 

[Pnasty94]

No Coach O is the real answer. Not sure why Cal isn't begging him to come back. Hell, if Shaka loses his Job next year then Cal should make him an assistant. I am so sick and tired of BS bigs.

 

[BlueRunner11]

This.... other coaches are simply saying, look at KAT and AD, they both have flourished in the NBA with an outside game. At UK neither got to show that part of their game. Come here and show you can play like that.

Also doesn’t help that KAT, AD, and Cousins are very open publicly (even if it is in a jestful manner) about Cal never allowing them to open up their games while here.

 

[Larry Skaggs]

There are a lot fewer big men lately due to the proliferation of organic milk