Weren't there rumors that Joe B Hall stepping down after 1985 was not entirely his own choice?

[Levibooty]

To say that Rupp didn't integrate UK basketball is ridiculous. And it's not misrepresenting history to say so. Sorry if you want to say Tom Payne was a 'no show'. He was indeed UK's first black varsity player. (BTW, trivia, who was UK 1st black JV player ?)

Now granted because Payne left early for the pros and there were no others on the 1971-72 freshman team, Hall basically had to start over again. Of course this wasn't anything new since Hall had been Rupp's lead recruiter for a number of years anyway.

As to the issues and resistance that Hall faced in integrating his squad, one can assume that Rupp had it even harder, considering that 1.) by the time Hall was doing it the second time around the rest of the SEC was also integrating and 2.) Hall didn't have the same stigma in the black community that Rupp had.

I believe I've seen Jack Givens comment that he likely would not have attended UK if Rupp was coach, mainly due to pressure from the black community, even though Givens said that he personally had good interactions with Rupp.

I know about Payne and yes you can make the case that the first black player at Kentucky was Tom Payne a player who played for Rupp. I am an avid defender of Rupp against those who claim he was a racist. That claim is bunk. For me however saying that the presence of Tom Payne integrated Kentucky basketball is like saying Ada Lois Sipuel integrated American education in 1948. She may have been the first black in an all white school but she did not integrate education.

I do not belittle Rupp or accept the claims of those that cast pejorative aspersions towards him. I do think saying Kentucky was a integrated program because one black player played one season is a technicality, the first black but hardly an accepted or normal player at Kentucky. The road of integration and the complete task of integration was indeed a systemic effort made by Coach Hall and his integrated staff. You do not hear this term anymore but I remember the term that many racists in Kentucky as well as many other places used, "he's our token ******" so I don't fully accept you premise that Rupp's team was integrated and I doubt Tom Payne would either. Nor do I think in any sense the idea the supreme court had started us on the path towards.

Yes Rupp played the first black player at Kentucky but it was Hall even if only by timing and opportunity that made multiple black coaches and players playing on the court at the same time and feel accepted and safe at Kentucky.

 

[2Adulterers]

I like to think that Joe wasn't kicked out and that he left because of his wife's health and his own burn out but clearly there was growing pressure from the fan base.

Katherine Hall was not ill..Joe wanted out the pressure was getting to him Cliff Hagaan and Joe got along great..forced out..Bull Crap.

 

[2Adulterers]

Yes Bishop walked on along with Elmore Stephens, from the football team during Rupp's final season at UK.

Bishop, BTW, is the answer to my trivia question as being UK's first black JV basketball player. He was the third leading scorer on the 1969-70 freshman team, but stuck with football.

Bishop was named an All-American in high school basketball by Parade Magazine, so he had talent in the sport.

Bishop played at Seneca with me All State in Football and Basketball.He and Elmore Stephens walked on....They missed plane to LSU..Rupp dismissed them.

 

[JacksonPurchaseCat]

I know this is repeated often but let's not perpetuate an inaccuracy. There was no cash 'falling out' of the envelope, despite what some in the media (most notably John Feinstein) would like to have their readers believe.

The testimony of the Emery employee was that the flap of the envelope had come open, and that upon further investigation he looked inside and found money. If anything 'popped', as described in the testimony it was the flap.

Now I've been told by people who have worked in the industry that in such a situation, the shipper would generally just reseal the package and send it on its way.

But not this particular package. This package they made a big deal of it, taking the money out and counting it as a group, then resealing and sending it to the recipient, although they didn't actually do that either. The delivery man took half of an 8-hour shift trying to 'deliver' the package (strange by itself for a professional delivery man), while at the same time squawking over the company radio not only the sender and name of the recipient but the fact that there was money inside (another strange action).

If the people at Emery intended for word to get out that UK was sending money to a high profile recruit, they couldn't have tried any harder.

Whether this was a setup or not, I don't know. But the strange actions of the Emery employees don't discount that as a real possibility.

I understand Mr. Scott. It was said in jest.

As a UK stat geek, I want to thank you for your work.

 

[JPScott]

I know about Payne and yes you can make the case that the first black player at Kentucky was Tom Payne a player who played for Rupp. I am an avid defender of Rupp against those who claim he was a racist. That claim is bunk. For me however saying that the presence of Tom Payne integrated Kentucky basketball is like saying Ada Lois Sipuel integrated American education in 1948. She may have been the first black in an all white school but she did not integrate education.

I do not belittle Rupp or accept the claims of those that cast pejorative aspersions towards him. I do think saying Kentucky was a integrated program because one black player played one season is a technicality, the first black but hardly an accepted or normal player at Kentucky. The road of integration and the complete task of integration was indeed a systemic effort made by Coach Hall and his integrated staff. You do not hear this term anymore but I remember the term that many racists in Kentucky as well as many other places used, "he's our token ******" so I don't fully accept you premise that Rupp's team was integrated and I doubt Tom Payne would either. Nor do I think in any sense the idea the supreme court had started us on the path towards.

Yes Rupp played the first black player at Kentucky but it was Hall even if only by timing and opportunity that made multiple black coaches and players playing on the court at the same time and feel accepted and safe at Kentucky.

Levibooty,

I appreciate your opinion on this, and agree to an extent that by the time Hall took over, he in many ways needed to start over to get the program fully integrated.

I just disagree when you try to claim that Rupp didn't integrate the program, and suggest that to say so is 'misrepresenting history'. The fact is that Rupp did indeed integrate the UK program. Just because the facts don't square with your opinion doesn't invalidate the fact.

 

[Levibooty]

Jon Scott

I appreciate your POV and do not dispute what you are saying in terms that Rupp played the 1st black person on Kentucky's basketball team. In the mathematical sense no one can dispute what you say and as you say facts are on your side. The first player was indeed Tom Payne. But integration has more meaning to some than mere mathematics and to many, more than merely desegregation.

This is from Wikipedia and is more in line with my thinking about integration in the racial sense which is what we are talking about:

Morris J. MacGregor, Jr. in his paper "Integration of the Armed Forces 1940-1969" writes concerning the words integration and desegregation:

...In recent years many historians have come to distinguish between these like-sounding words.. The movement toward desegregation, breaking down the nation's Jim Crow system, became increasingly popular in the decade after World War II. Integration, on the other hand, Professor Oscar Handlin maintains, implies several things not yet necessarily accepted in all areas of American society. In one sense it refers to the "levelling of all barriers to association other than those based on ability, taste, and personal preference";[1] in other words, providing equal opportunity. But in another sense integration calls for the random distribution of a minority throughout society. Here, according to Handlin, the emphasis is on racial balance in areas of occupation, education, residency, and the like.



When thought about in these terms I think Rupp desegregated Kentucky basketball but it was Hall that integrated the Kentucky team.

 

[JPScott]

Jon Scott

I appreciate your POV and do not dispute what you are saying in terms that Rupp played the 1st black person on Kentucky's basketball team. In the mathematical sense no one can dispute what you say and as you say facts are on your side. The first player was indeed Tom Payne. But integration has more meaning to some than mere mathematics and to many, more than merely desegregation.

This is from Wikipedia and is more in line with my thinking about integration in the racial sense which is what we are talking about:

Morris J. MacGregor, Jr. in his paper "Integration of the Armed Forces 1940-1969" writes concerning the words integration and desegregation:

...In recent years many historians have come to distinguish between these like-sounding words.. The movement toward desegregation, breaking down the nation's Jim Crow system, became increasingly popular in the decade after World War II. Integration, on the other hand, Professor Oscar Handlin maintains, implies several things not yet necessarily accepted in all areas of American society. In one sense it refers to the "levelling of all barriers to association other than those based on ability, taste, and personal preference";[1] in other words, providing equal opportunity. But in another sense integration calls for the random distribution of a minority throughout society. Here, according to Handlin, the emphasis is on racial balance in areas of occupation, education, residency, and the like.



When thought about in these terms I think Rupp desegregated Kentucky basketball but it was Hall that integrated the Kentucky team.

Levi,

I'm glad you concede the point that I made.

As far as your comments regarding desegregation vs. true integration, then yes I agree with you that when you delineate and define the terms, there are distinct differences and agree that what Rupp was able to accomplish was more akin to desegregation.

But in the general vernacular as used by people on forums such as this and related to this topic, the terms are largely used interchangeably.

Maybe if you had defined your terms at the beginning, then I wouldn't have objected.

Anyway, I agree with what you say, given the definitions you have adopted. I would go further to say that using these definitions, probably NO schools or coaches during the 1940s through the early 1970s (and yes that includes schools in the North) were truly integrated [again using your definition of integration]

 

[eku69]

Don't know if there's any truth in it, but I read/heard that one reason Joe left was due to problems with his getting pretty big bucks( in cash) for UK tickets and then the IRS came calling to see why he hadn't paid taxes on the money.

 

[Levibooty]

Levi,

I'm glad you concede the point that I made.

As far as your comments regarding desegregation vs. true integration, then yes I agree with you that when you delineate and define the terms, there are distinct differences and agree that what Rupp was able to accomplish was more akin to desegregation.

But in the general vernacular as used by people on forums such as this and related to this topic, the terms are largely used interchangeably.

Maybe if you had defined your terms at the beginning, then I wouldn't have objected.

Anyway, I agree with what you say, given the definitions you have adopted. I would go further to say that using these definitions, probably NO schools or coaches during the 1940s through the early 1970s (and yes that includes schools in the North) were truly integrated [again using your definition of integration]

Maybe so but then you and I would not have had this respectful conversation which was positive to the end and even though we have different POV's we came to an understanding. Kind of a rare thing these days. To me that is a plus, plus. When it comes to racial issues I try hard to "step outside of my skin" so that I can understand other's POV.

In any case I very much enjoyed talking with you.

 

[jackcarlson]

I remember those years well. Joe was a terrible coach. He wasted more talent than Bobby Knight ever had.