Vitale's Suggestion for 6 Fouls

[RipThru]

NBA refs are IMO (with a few exceptions) far superior and much more consistent than your typical NCAA ref.

As far as overlooking traveling, yes that can be an issue at times for the NBA. But I would submit as a counter that 1.) it's actually harder to travel than many people assume, especially if players use a proper jump-stop and 2.) NCAA refs often call players for traveling which actually isn't (when you slow it down and look at the pivot in relation to what's happening with the ball.) It seems anything that looks rushed or awkward in any way is called a travel by default.

I respect you and your knowledge of basketball, but I couldn't disagree more, especially about the consistency of NBA officials. The "star" system" is in full effect in the NBA and certain players are rarely called for anything. James Harden is an example; walks on a LOT of his drives to the basket and often throws himself into the defender on shot attempts which is one reason why he is at or near the top of the league in FT attempts yearly. I guess we will agree to disagree here!
Great site by the way, and thanks for doing it!

 

[RipThru]

Or an offensive player using his arms and shoulders like that could be whistled for a player control foul like they should be... The charge doesn't equalize anything. It is a way to
Punish a player who is faster and more athletic for getting to the rim. Ooo look at me I got underneath you and put my hands on my nads and fell backwards. Gotcha! Woo we get the ball the other way now!

Seriously I hate the charge call. I by no means say let offensive players bully and push defensive players all day, but I rarely see a charge that I thought was really a charge. To be a charge for me, the player should have occupied that space and I don't mean jump into that space at the last second to strategically draw a foul. I mean he is playing defense there and the offensive player ran over the space he legitimately occupied. The charge is a shitty call most of the time

It's called "Team D"; if a player has rotated properly (in time, in position) then taking a charge is the epitome of what a good teammate is. We applaud guys who dive on the floor for a loose ball but ridicule those who put their body in the way of a 220 lb dude driving at full speed to the rim to prevent a basket?

 

[JPScott]

A "proper jump-stop" should be traveling too.

I don't know what you mean by this. Care to elaborate?

To me a jump stop is simply a useful technique used when receiving a pass or ending a dribble in order to avoid establishing a pivot right away. (As opposed to someone not doing it correctly and inadvertently establishing their pivot at the stop, which limits their options going forward.)

In other words it's the actions that happen AFTER the stop which determines if a travel has occurred. Not the jump stop itself.

 

[JPScott]

I respect you and your knowledge of basketball, but I couldn't disagree more, especially about the consistency of NBA officials. The "star" system" is in full effect in the NBA and certain players are rarely called for anything. James Harden is an example; walks on a LOT of his drives to the basket and often throws himself into the defender on shot attempts which is one reason why he is at or near the top of the league in FT attempts yearly. I guess we will agree to disagree here!
Great site by the way, and thanks for doing it!

There is some star treatment, I can't deny that. But it's nothing like it was when Michael Jordan and Larry Bird etc. were playing.

And I definitely think that the quality of NBA reffing has improved and become more consistent (especially post Tim Donaghy scandal) and standardized.

Is there room for improvement? Certainly, and there's a few refs who should be shown the door. But overall I still maintain they're light years ahead of NCAA refs. Talk about a good-ole-boys network!

 

[deltasig41]

I agree with the 6 fouls and I agree with going to 4 quarters. Only level of basketball in the entire world that doesn't play quarters is college ball in the U.S. Play with international rules, and be done with it. Would make the games far more entertaining and would help reduce the sloppy, free throw contests they've become in the last 4 or 5 years.

 

[Bkocats]

It's called "Team D"; if a player has rotated properly (in time, in position) then taking a charge is the epitome of what a good teammate is. We applaud guys who dive on the floor for a loose ball but ridicule those who put their body in the way of a 220 lb dude driving at full speed to the rim to prevent a basket?

the problem isn't that so much, IMO - it's that it's not called correctly a good portion of the time
If these refs could be consistent - and correct - on the call, there wouldn't be an issue

 

[Cats192]

Just get rid of the charge call. Falling down is not a basketball skill. Either play defense or get out of the way. I would also accept as a compromise changing the charge to a simple turnover (not a foul). Still the charge is dangerous and has no place in the game of basketball.

There has to be an offensive foul.

If you don't call charges, you handicap the defender. If they're allowed to run you over/push off, then there's no way to defend it without fouling.

 

[gossie21]

There has to be an offensive foul.

If you don't call charges, you handicap the defender. If they're allowed to run you over/push off, then there's no way to defend it without fouling.

Fine. Just get rid of the secondary defender charge call. There is no play worse for the game when some defender just stands in the way of the basket with no plan to do anything other than fall down.

I would rather get rid of the whole thing altogether because even the on-ball defenders have started flopping the second a post player makes a move and contact is made. The offensive player doesn't know whether he needs to play through the bump or avoid the defender all together.

 

[Doc_53]

How about 3 per half? But not 6 per game...in other words not more than 3 per half?

 

[Elliott Tim]

Plus if they got rid of the charge call I GUARANTEE you Cochin k would retire. He can't coach without it.

 

[awf]

Vitale is just some talking head that is trying to stay relevant. He hasn't been in a long time. Actually since he denigrated UK fans by saying we were racist because of the Tubby Smith situation.

 

[ymmot31]

Vitale's argument is stupid. He wants the college game to have 6 like the nba has. What the old timer doesn't realize is they have the same ratio of fouls per minutes played. One foul for every 8 minutes. It's the same, just shorter games. Most college players don't foul out most games.

It's a non-issue.

Thread/ Stopped reading here.

 

[tHeFeVeR_23]

Vitale's argument is stupid. He wants the college game to have 6 like the nba has. What the old timer doesn't realize is they have the same ratio of fouls per minutes played. One foul for every 8 minutes. It's the same, just shorter games. Most college players don't foul out most games.

It's a non-issue.

This. I believe that if you can not play the game without fouling (which is part/rule of the game) then you should pay a penalty...which is sitting out when in foul trouble or no longer eligible for play after committing the 5th.

 

[tHeFeVeR_23]

Fine. Just get rid of the secondary defender charge call. There is no play worse for the game when some defender just stands in the way of the basket with no plan to do anything other than fall down.

I would rather get rid of the whole thing altogether because even the on-ball defenders have started flopping the second a post player makes a move and contact is made. The offensive player doesn't know whether he needs to play through the bump or avoid the defender all together.

A player on the floor has every right to establish position and occupy any spot on the floor rather defense or offense. For that reason, the charge is part of basketball. Falling down is not a skill nor part of the game, I agree, but busting your butt to claim a position that the offensive player is headed towards is part of the game...like to call that hustle. The arc under the basket was put there to address the weak-side defender charge call. It has definitely helped. This is just a hard call to make and always will be because of judgement and personal perception or viewing angle. Perhaps making it a reviewable play could help the referees to an extent, but not saying i'd like to see it that way.

 

[MegaBlue05]

I dig it. 3 per half. Seems fair.

 

[ccukuk]

Just get rid of the charge call. Falling down is not a basketball skill. Either play defense or get out of the way. I would also accept as a compromise changing the charge to a simple turnover (not a foul). Still the charge is dangerous and has no place in the game of basketball.

Can you clarify? Certainly players will always create charging scenarios as they go to the basket, bring the ball up the court and are trapped, etc. Do you mean the call has no place, or players should stop penetrating/driving, and we should revert to the underhanded shot, 4 corners?

 

[ccukuk]

I respect you and your knowledge of basketball, but I couldn't disagree more, especially about the consistency of NBA officials. The "star" system" is in full effect in the NBA and certain players are rarely called for anything. James Harden is an example; walks on a LOT of his drives to the basket and often throws himself into the defender on shot attempts which is one reason why he is at or near the top of the league in FT attempts yearly. I guess we will agree to disagree here!
Great site by the way, and thanks for doing it!

To this point, in reference to Randle, a point was made of his progression. To wit, the poster referred Randle's injuries and his needing to take a back seat last year to Kobe, as he earned the right to do whatever he wanted. Refs and idiot fans are starstruck by some NBA players. Kobe can waste a team's entire year because he's earned it.
Doesn't directly relate to this but it applies. Their are some f'n awfully dumb people and there is limited regularly among players/teams relating calls at college and pro levels.
Kobe earned the right to waste a franchises future development and do whatever he wanted-he earned it???

 

[_Rooster]

You could go to a system where any foul over 5 is an automatic technical.

Yes, 2 freebies and the ball will eliminate most excessive hacking late in games. Players sitting after fouling is too flipping vulnerable to the impact of fishy zebras and the phantom foul call. The Mashburn foul comes to mind.

 

[Estil]

In baseball it's three strikes you're out, and in college basketball it's always(?) been five fouls you're out. Not to mention adding a sixth foul would complicate the "Tomarken/Press Your Luck rule" (as I like to call it) about benching a player after two fouls in the first half because as the late Press Your Luck host would say, you want to be careful about picking up a third [whammy-->foul] in [round-->half] one.

As traditionalist as this may sound, five fouls you're out has done us well for what, at or near 100 years?

 

[KYtotheCore]

Yes, 2 freebies and the ball will eliminate most excessive hacking late in games. Players sitting after fouling is too flipping vlunerable to the impact of fishy zebras and the phantom foul call. The Mashburn foul comes to mind.

Good ol' zebra plecostomus.

 

[BlueSince92]

Here's how we fix officiating.

A randomly selected panel of NBA refs watches film of each game all season and tallies up all the bad/blown calls. At the end of the season, whoever has the most bad calls? We hang him.

End of bad officiating. Next!

 

[420grover]

High school should only have 4 fouls if we're going with the 1 foul per 8 minutes of play.

 

[JonathanW]

High school should only have 4 fouls if we're going with the 1 foul per 8 minutes of play.

Except that your average HS player is no where near as skilled as a college player. You can make the same statement about college to pro. But I think the HS to college jump is much bigger. So a HS player may need more forgiveness on the fouls.

 

[RipThru]

the problem isn't that so much, IMO - it's that it's not called correctly a good portion of the time
If these refs could be consistent - and correct - on the call, there wouldn't be an issue

Well then the problem is not with the charge call, but with the men and women who are "charged" with applying it.

 

[JPScott]

One more comment about NBA reffing, which is something that I didn't realize until this morning.

To their credit, the NBA apparently has an entire website devoted to NBA officiating where they, for example, have a video rulebook which breaks down all kinds of different situations and helps explain why they are called. (BTW, It would be nice if they cited the actual rulebook citation and wording when they provide their video examples.)

Link to NBA Video Rulebook

They also have places to see who is scheduled to ref particular games, and places for NBA referees to respond and explain recent controversial calls etc.

Main NBA Official Page

This is all good, and I think helps not only ensure consistent and high quality officiating but helps to educate the general public on the rules.

FWIW, I've long advocated that NCAA refs and their supervisors be more transparent and be more open to the public to discuss the calls that were made during the course of the game, and why they were called correctly or incorrectly.

Below is a snippet of my proposal for NCAA refs.

 

[RipThru]

Steve Kerr just got fined 25K because he said (and I paraphrase) "everybody in the building can recognize a travel but the 3 guys we pay to call it".