UNC will release NCAA’s Notice of Allegations today

[JPScott]

I don't know how important this 12hr issue is, but I found this over on Pack Pride.

That's the thing to keep in mind with regard to this 12-hour rule. It's important because it's pretty obvious that UNC broke their own rules in a number of cases, and also that Debbie Crowder intentionally mischaracterized these classes for the express purpose of skirting this requirement, thereby committing fraud.

That's a smoking gun for the NCAA. Whether they choose to prosecute based on it is of course an open question.

But the thing to keep in mind is that the 12-hour rule is NOT the end-all and be-all. It's not like if one of these classes fell within the 12-hours, that it makes everything OK and the class legitimate. These were still classes which were created and run by a department secretary, with little to no academic value or oversight.

Beyond that, UNC as a whole failed to monitor themselves adequately (either that or they were complicit in the fraud), and the UNC athletic department certified each year that these athletes were eligible for athletic competition (which is a requirement by the NCAA) although they knew that this was based on fraudulent courses (thereby committing fraud themselves).

In the end, UNC willfully broke and flaunted the NCAA's basic tenets regarding academic integrity and honesty etc. That's what UNC apologists seem to want to overlook, when they're trying to nitpick at the details.

 

[JPScott]

Aside from a few published works (one book and Dan Kane et al) and then FINALLY the Wainstein investigation, what else would there have been than the "litigation on a message board."

The two books which have been published to date have been "Cheated" by Jay Smith and Mary Willingham and "Tarnished Heels" by Rob Anderson

Amazon Link to Cheated

Amazon Link to Tarnished Heels​

FWIW, I haven't read either of these books although I do have a copy of Cheated, which I may decide to read this summer.

I don't believe Dan Kane has published a book on this, but I fully expect that someday he will. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a handful of books published on this scandal before everything is said and done.

 

[KopiKat]

I stand corrected: two books. Thank you, Jon. My estimate is doubled.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

I guess that's one way to look at it. AFAM wasn't following the rules prior to 2012 so you want to claim that they weren't required to follow the rules. Sounds convenient but if that's what UNC is hanging their hat on, that's incredible lame, and an extremely weak argument. If anything it's an admission that anything prior to 2012 can be considered ripe for investigation of fraud, since obviously no one at UNC was paying attention to what was going on, and if they did they obviously shirked their duty and were complicit in the fraud.

The rules were in the undergraduate bulletin, which presumably applies to undergraduates regardless of which school they are in (and especially if they haven't yet declared a major which generally doesn't happen at UNC until their junior year.)

FWIW, as I said I don't claim to know all the details of any of this (believe it or not, it's not me or PackPride who needs to prove anything, it's UNC that's being judged here.) I'm just asking the questions based on my limited perusing of the exhibits that were in the NOA supplements where it pretty clearly notes that there's a 12-hour limit for independent studies.

It's also pretty clear that IF UNC wanted to label this classes as 'correspondence classes' (which they clearly weren't since these players were on campus at the time), then that might provide relief from the 12-hour rule in theory but correspondence classes also includes additional requirements, which it's not clear that UNC can prove were upheld (for example getting the written approval of a Dean etc.) [And even if they could prove it, it's another can of worms because it suggests that the Deans were complicit in the fraud.]

But back to your response, you act like it's required of me to prosecute UNC. It's not. I've just asked some questions, which you have struggled to date to answer directly BTW.

BTW, I would have thought that after your week-long hiatus that when you returned you might be able to provide a more coherent response (maybe after consulting with someone who can actually present an intelligent argument) but we're back into the same tired old responses from you [1.) refer to some argument which you don't provide any details about (example above regarding UNC and SACS) 2.) focus on minor details without seeing or acknowledging the big picture 3.) purposely misread people's comments and ask inane questions (example: the above "what response did Crowder herself give) and on and on and on.]

I've only responded to your first paragraph as the rest just seemed like a rant and not actually part of your response in the debate. If, however you did intend for that to be part of a meaningful retort then please shape it up.

Not just AFAM, most all departments had different numbers allowed for independent studies - afam, math, geography, etc. You're now, I dare say, seeing why some faculty want to shift the focus away from them as it shows just how absent-minded they were. However, you still seem to ignore this is not really a problem, exceeding the limit of independent studies, unless they counted some more to their degree (there's also limits on elective hours - surely you still remember our arguments).

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

That's the thing to keep in mind with regard to this 12-hour rule. It's important because it's pretty obvious that UNC broke their own rules in a number of cases, and also that Debbie Crowder intentionally mischaracterized these classes for the express purpose of skirting this requirement, thereby committing fraud.

That's a smoking gun for the NCAA. Whether they choose to prosecute based on it is of course an open question.

But the thing to keep in mind is that the 12-hour rule is NOT the end-all and be-all. It's not like if one of these classes fell within the 12-hours, that it makes everything OK and the class legitimate. These were still classes which were created and run by a department secretary, with little to no academic value or oversight.

Beyond that, UNC as a whole failed to monitor themselves adequately (either that or they were complicit in the fraud), and the UNC athletic department certified each year that these athletes were eligible for athletic competition (which is a requirement by the NCAA) although they knew that this was based on fraudulent courses (thereby committing fraud themselves).

In the end, UNC willfully broke and flaunted the NCAA's basic tenets regarding academic integrity and honesty etc. That's what UNC apologists seem to want to overlook, when they're trying to nitpick at the details.

Once again, simply taking more than 12 hours of independent studies IS NOT A violation of any UNC rule and it DOES NOT mean the athlete is not "on-track" (this ignoring that different departments were allowed to operate a different limit number).

You're are right that UNC academics failed to monitor this thing (perhaps why the college of A&S were the ones cited in the LOIC allegation.

 

[brianpoe]

Blind Bobby, you are right about one thing, it wasn't just AFAM, why are they not looking into Communications? Amazing how athletes only chose between the two majors...

 

[preacherfan]

JPScott,

I may be lost in this discussion but it seems to me that only 12 hours of IS could be counted toward graduation. This is from the UNC undergrad bulletin, p. 49 for 2009-2010

The University offers a variety of internships and independent
study experiences for its students. These often fall under the
category of special studies (SPCL) or departmental independent
study courses. Twelve hours of graded special studies and/or
departmental independent study credit may be counted toward
graduation, though no more than six hours may be taken in any
one semester.

Bobby says this was put in place in 2012? What am I missing?

 

[preacherfan]

I've only responded to your first paragraph as the rest just seemed like a rant and not actually part of your response in the debate. If, however you did intend for that to be part of a meaningful retort then please shape it up.

Not just AFAM, most all departments had different numbers allowed for independent studies - afam, math, geography, etc. You're now, I dare say, seeing why some faculty want to shift the focus away from them as it shows just how absent-minded they were. However, you still seem to ignore this is not really a problem, exceeding the limit of independent studies, unless they counted some more to their degree (there's also limits on elective hours - surely you still remember our arguments).

I want to see the evidence that departments had their own requirements for IS classes....where did you get this information?

In my college experience departments could not change university graduation policies.

 

[JPScott]

Once again, simply taking more than 12 hours of independent studies IS NOT A violation of any UNC rule and it DOES NOT mean the athlete is not "on-track" (this ignoring that different departments were allowed to operate a different limit number).

You're are right that UNC academics failed to monitor this thing (perhaps why the college of A&S were the ones cited in the LOIC allegation.

I already explained this to you the first time. Taking more than 12 hours of independent study is not a violation per se, but according to UNC's own rules anything beyond that can't be applied towards graduation. Beyond that UNC has to abide by the NCAA regulations that require that players take sufficient classes to be 'on-track' to graduate.

If UNC is allowing their players to take classes which cannot be counted towards graduation, then those classes can't be used to fulfill the requirements of being on-track to graduate. Not that hard to understand, for most people anyway.

Sure, it is possible that these players were taking sufficient credits already among their 'real' classes and these 'irregular' classes were simply extra classes they were taking for fun. Maybe, but I'd be shocked to see any athlete who takes classes 'just for fun' knowing that they can't be applied as credit towards graduation.

If UNC wants to claim that this was the case, then it should be fairly straightforward to prove. Again, all it takes is a thorough combing of the transcripts, which BTW is what I've suggested should have happened from the very beginning. [And FWIW, the evidence we've seen to date (Julius Peppers, Rashad McCants etc.) don't support the theory that they were fulfilling their NCAA requirements and these were just 'extra' classes. They demonstrate the exact opposite, that these classes were absolutely necessary just to keep their GPA high enough to stay afloat.]

BTW, the fact that a struggling student like Julius Peppers was not only kept eligible to play football (via these illicit classes) but was allowed to play TWO sports is IMO completely unconscionable. If there was ever a case of a University using a player for their own benefit while cheating them out of a education, I'd like to see it.

 

[JPScott]

JPScott,

I may be lost in this discussion but it seems to me that only 12 hours of IS could be counted toward graduation. This is from the UNC undergrad bulletin, p. 49 for 2009-2010

The University offers a variety of internships and independent
study experiences for its students. These often fall under the
category of special studies (SPCL) or departmental independent
study courses. Twelve hours of graded special studies and/or
departmental independent study credit may be counted toward
graduation, though no more than six hours may be taken in any
one semester.

Bobby says this was put in place in 2012? What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. Bobby claims UNC didn't start to actually follow their own rules until 2012 (when SACS required them to.)

He has yet to provide any evidence for why he thinks they were exempt prior to this date, nor explained why Debbie Crowder went out of her way to intentionally mischaracterize classes to avoid these rules that Bobby claims don't apply.

 

[Smashcat]

Again, all it takes is a thorough combing of the transcripts, which BTW is what I've suggested should have happened from the very beginning.
That would have happened if they actually wanted to sink UNC's ship. Unfortunately it appears the NCAA wants to keep the ship afloat and send it on its way.

 

[preacherfan]

You're not missing anything. Bobby claims UNC didn't start to actually follow their own rules until 2012 (when SACS required them to.)

He has yet to provide any evidence for why he thinks they were exempt prior to this date, nor explained why Debbie Crowder went out of her way to intentionally mischaracterize classes to avoid these rules that Bobby claims don't apply.

I have NO idea why he continues to argue the way he does....even the NCAA is holding UNC to the 12 hour limit:

Additionally, from the 2006 fall semester and continuing through the 2011
summer semester, the institution provided impermissible extra benefits
similar to those articulated above and allowed 10 student-athletes to
exceed the limit of independent study credits countable toward graduation.
Under the institution's policy, credit hours for independent study courses
did not count toward a degree after a student exhausted the institutional
12-hour limitation. By failing to count the anomalous AFRI/AFAM
courses as independent study courses, and including these courses as
applicable toward graduation, the institution impermissibly allowed 10
student-athletes to exceed the 12-hour limitation. [NCAA Bylaw
16.11.2.1 (2006-07 through 2010-11)]

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

I already explained this to you the first time. Taking more than 12 hours of independent study is not a violation per se, but according to UNC's own rules anything beyond that can't be applied towards graduation. Beyond that UNC has to abide by the NCAA regulations that require that players take sufficient classes to be 'on-track' to graduate.

If UNC is allowing their players to take classes which cannot be counted towards graduation, then those classes can't be used to fulfill the requirements of being on-track to graduate. Not that hard to understand, for most people anyway.

Sure, it is possible that these players were taking sufficient credits already among their 'real' classes and these 'irregular' classes were simply extra classes they were taking for fun. Maybe, but I'd be shocked to see any athlete who takes classes 'just for fun' knowing that they can't be applied as credit towards graduation.

If UNC wants to claim that this was the case, then it should be fairly straightforward to prove. Again, all it takes is a thorough combing of the transcripts, which BTW is what I've suggested should have happened from the very beginning. [And FWIW, the evidence we've seen to date (Julius Peppers, Rashad McCants etc.) don't support the theory that they were fulfilling their NCAA requirements and these were just 'extra' classes. They demonstrate the exact opposite, that these classes were absolutely necessary just to keep their GPA high enough to stay afloat.]

BTW, the fact that a struggling student like Julius Peppers was not only kept eligible to play football (via these illicit classes) but was allowed to play TWO sports is IMO completely unconscionable. If there was ever a case of a University using a player for their own benefit while cheating them out of a education, I'd like to see it.

So you say 1) players can't take more than 12 hours of IS because it want count towards graduation, then say 2) they can in following paragraph. You're just trying to misguide, because you know that saying a player is off track once they take more than one credit over is not the way it works, if so bye bye to a lot of 4-5 year guys who have to take extra electives to stay full-time but which don't count towards their degree, or someone who (as you point out) takes a class for fun that can't count towards degree.

After this you then try to re-cover your butt by saying "you don't think" they're taking these classes for fun and so should not count to being "on-track". You're very slippery and easily flexible with your respnses, but finally I getting you into a corner.

As far as Peppers, do you think he'd rather have taken easy classes so he could make 100s of millions (just guessed these numbers) or forced to take very hard classes and flunk out and not get drafted? Do you think UK exploited AD because they didn't put him in the most challenging freshman level courses? Do you think schools should tell their students what classes they take?

Also, the NCAA reviewed the transcripts relevant.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

I want to see the evidence that departments had their own requirements for IS classes....where did you get this information?

In my college experience departments could not change university graduation policies.

You said you read the SACS response, your questions are answered there.

 

[Jamal Mercer]

Do you think schools should set up paper classes for athletes for 20 years?? Let me guess, you are still trying to convince yourself this is all a dream??

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

I have NO idea why he continues to argue the way he does....even the NCAA is holding UNC to the 12 hour limit:

Additionally, from the 2006 fall semester and continuing through the 2011
summer semester, the institution provided impermissible extra benefits
similar to those articulated above and allowed 10 student-athletes to
exceed the limit of independent study credits countable toward graduation.
Under the institution's policy, credit hours for independent study courses
did not count toward a degree after a student exhausted the institutional
12-hour limitation. By failing to count the anomalous AFRI/AFAM
courses as independent study courses, and including these courses as
applicable toward graduation, the institution impermissibly allowed 10
student-athletes to exceed the 12-hour limitation. [NCAA Bylaw
16.11.2.1 (2006-07 through 2010-11)]

And, as I said many times before, they're wrong here and you'll see during COI.

 

[KopiKat]

Once again, simply taking more than 12 hours of independent studies IS NOT A violation of any UNC rule and it DOES NOT mean the athlete is not "on-track" (this ignoring that different departments were allowed to operate a different limit number).

My dear God, even I can recall the number of times that JP has explained to you this same shit over and stinking over. What is your deal, child ? Are you seriously that deficient in the reading comprehension / retention departments? Jon, you've got the patience of friggin' Job with this one, bro. Just reading these circles you're forced to write in is making me dizzy. Never in the history of Rupp Rafters has a visiting poster demonstrated poorer comprehension / retention abilities.

 

[JPScott]

So you say 1) players can't take more than 12 hours of IS because it want count towards graduation, then say 2) they can in following paragraph. You're just trying to misguide, because you know that saying a player is off track once they take more than one credit over is not the way it works, if so bye bye to a lot of 4-5 year guys who have to take extra electives to stay full-time but which don't count towards their degree, or someone who (as you point out) takes a class for fun that can't count towards degree.

After this you then try to re-cover your butt by saying "you don't think" they're taking these classes for fun and so should not count to being "on-track". You're very slippery and easily flexible with your respnses, but finally I getting you into a corner.

Bobby you respond but all I see is the following:

Loopy

I could try to once again explain for you this point, but frankly there's nothing I can say to improve your lack of comprehension. So that's obviously a waste of time.

BTW, it would hilarious and almost endearing (if you were a two year old) for you think that "finally I getting you into a corner" if it weren't so bizarre.

 

[CBBCrazy]

Bobby you respond but all I see is the following:

Loopy

I could try to once again explain for you this point, but frankly there's nothing I can say to improve your lack of comprehension. So that's obviously a waste of time.

BTW, it would hilarious and almost endearing (if you were a two year old) for you think that "finally I getting you into a corner" if it weren't so bizarre.

You can't fix stupid JP, I will give you all the credit in the world for trying. Lil Bobby Trickle took way too many paper courses.

 

[preacherfan]

You said you read the SACS response, your questions are answered there.

SACS must have agreed since they declared UNC in compliance and said UNC was in the right all along. Oh wait...

 

[preacherfan]

You said you read the SACS response, your questions are answered there.

This is what it says but even with multiple degrees, I have a hard time understanding it unless it means that UNC failed to follow their own policies just as JPScott has stated:

This section regarding "Independent Studies for Credit" was first incorporated in the
Undergraduate Bulletin in the 2010-2011 edition. A 12-hour limit on departmental independent study credits was initially included in the 2006-2007 Bulletin as an addition to the existing policy on "Special Studies for Credit." Until Fall 2006 there was no defined limit on the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward an undergraduate degree.

The graduation coordinator, a Dean’s designee, is responsible for certifying courses towards graduation and has the authority to grant an exception for any degree requirement other than a minimum 120 credit hours and a 2.0 minimum required G.P.A. A graduation coordinator in place from 1988 until retirement in 2008 did not limit the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward graduation of any students. UNC-Chapel Hill began considering the number of Independent Studies completed as part of the graduation certification process when the Fall 2006 cohort began graduating (Spring 2010). Based on the language of the Undergraduate Bulletin as well as the practical application by its administration, there was no limit on the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward graduation until students entered in the Fall 2006 semester. Prior to the 2012, there also were no procedures in place for monitoring enrollments in independent studies. As with other areas related to academic integrity, the University has implemented a comprehensive degree audit system that provides additional checks and balances for the graduation coordinator and University.

 

[preacherfan]

One other point that needs to be made is that Bobby doesn't understand the concept of "progress toward a degree". Yeah, athletes can take "extra" classes for fun but based on the graduation requirements at UNC, an athlete MUST have completed 48 hours of the required coursework by the end of 2nd year, 72 hours by the end of the 3rd year and 96 by the end of the 4th year.

Independent studies classes over 12 credit hours do not count toward these numbers. Since we know these were fake classes, it would not make sense to take any more these classes for any reason whatsoever.

Show the transcripts!

"In Division I, student-athletes must complete 40 percent of the coursework required for a degree by the end of their second year. They must complete 60 percent by the end of their third year and 80 percent by the end of their fourth year. Student-athletes are allowed five years to graduate while receiving athletically related financial aid. All Division I student-athletes must earn at least six credit hours each term to be eligible for the following term and must meet minimum grade-point average requirements that are related to an institution’s own GPA standards for graduation."

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

This is what it says but even with multiple degrees, I have a hard time understanding it unless it means that UNC failed to follow their own policies just as JPScott has stated:

This section regarding "Independent Studies for Credit" was first incorporated in the
Undergraduate Bulletin in the 2010-2011 edition. A 12-hour limit on departmental independent study credits was initially included in the 2006-2007 Bulletin as an addition to the existing policy on "Special Studies for Credit." Until Fall 2006 there was no defined limit on the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward an undergraduate degree.

The graduation coordinator, a Dean’s designee, is responsible for certifying courses towards graduation and has the authority to grant an exception for any degree requirement other than a minimum 120 credit hours and a 2.0 minimum required G.P.A. A graduation coordinator in place from 1988 until retirement in 2008 did not limit the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward graduation of any students. UNC-Chapel Hill began considering the number of Independent Studies completed as part of the graduation certification process when the Fall 2006 cohort began graduating (Spring 2010). Based on the language of the Undergraduate Bulletin as well as the practical application by its administration, there was no limit on the number of independent study courses that could be applied toward graduation until students entered in the Fall 2006 semester. Prior to the 2012, there also were no procedures in place for monitoring enrollments in independent studies. As with other areas related to academic integrity, the University has implemented a comprehensive degree audit system that provides additional checks and balances for the graduation coordinator and University.

Great! You found the answer.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

One other point that needs to be made is that Bobby doesn't understand the concept of "progress toward a degree". Yeah, athletes can take "extra" classes for fun but based on the graduation requirements at UNC, an athlete MUST have completed 48 hours of the required coursework by the end of 2nd year, 72 hours by the end of the 3rd year and 96 by the end of the 4th year.

Independent studies classes over 12 credit hours do not count toward these numbers. Since we know these were fake classes, it would not make sense to take any more these classes for any reason whatsoever.

Show the transcripts!

"In Division I, student-athletes must complete 40 percent of the coursework required for a degree by the end of their second year. They must complete 60 percent by the end of their third year and 80 percent by the end of their fourth year. Student-athletes are allowed five years to graduate while receiving athletically related financial aid. All Division I student-athletes must earn at least six credit hours each term to be eligible for the following term and must meet minimum grade-point average requirements that are related to an institution’s own GPA standards for graduation."

The NCAA has seen the transcripts.

How are those irregular classes catalogued? We've already put this line of attack to pasture, see some pages ago.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

Bobby you respond but all I see is the following:

Loopy

I could try to once again explain for you this point, but frankly there's nothing I can say to improve your lack of comprehension. So that's obviously a waste of time.

BTW, it would hilarious and almost endearing (if you were a two year old) for you think that "finally I getting you into a corner" if it weren't so bizarre.

Well, I guess we're all set up for something epic. Is the great JP Scot going to once again squash an adolescent and show right he was all along? Or will it turn out that he simply was wrong, yet kept trying to assert he was right and far superior intellectually? We'll see with the COI ruling.

And please, stop trying to twist your way out of any responsibility. It's clear where you stand. When no mbb players are ruled ineligible and no wins are vacated, don't come in and try to slime to another stance. You ducked my offers/bets, this you can't back out of. And, before you ask yourself, yes I am almost 12 years old. So I will take pride in this victory. See you next winter.

 

[TexKat]

Is this the longest thread in Rafters history? Nice topic tho....

 

[Xception]

This thread is a compilation of multiple threads because an attention ho didn't have enough audience , Jamal Murray threads combined would generate some competition .

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

This thread is a compilation of multiple threads because an attention ho didn't have enough audience , Jamal Murray threads combined would generate some competition .

Me?

 

[saxonburgcat]

Me?

You are definitely a queer poster.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

You are definitely a queer poster.

It's fun here, most of the posters here care more about UNC basketball than actual UNC basketball fans. The levels of obsession are, as you pointed out, evidenced by the shear number of UNC-based threads, and only rivaled by NC State fans.

 

[brianpoe]

It's fun here, most of the posters here care more about UNC basketball than actual UNC basketball fans. The levels of obsession are, as you pointed out, evidenced by the shear number of UNC-based threads, and only rivaled by NC State fans.

How is it that only UNC fans cannot see the obvious, intentional cheating that has gone on for 20 years?

Players admitted to it, and are even suing UNC over it.

Administrators and professors are writing books about it.

Your own PR ridden investigation slammed the university.

SACS put you guys on probation.

The NCAA has concluded there was an obvious lack of institutional control.

But yet, you see nothing...?

 

[Xception]

Nm

 

[martinsm30]