I am just cynical about the NCAA. They are weak. They will fold, IMHO.
UNC and UofL will keep their banners somehow. The NCAA will find a way to let them skate.
UNC to meet with NCAA Infractions committee
- Thread starter JFCats22
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I am just cynical about the NCAA. They are weak. They will fold, IMHO.
UNC and UofL will keep their banners somehow. The NCAA will find a way to let them skate.
I do. Somehow, someway. I've been on record saying I think UL keeps the banners. I may be the only one. But in my opinion, UL keeps the banners. Time will tell.
But they haven't taken a champion. UL's banner(s) still hang.
I think you are an excellent poster. One of the few on here that I think truly "gets it" when it comes to being honest and direct about Cal and this era. And I do mean "few" because there aren't many. But I can't for the life of me believe how many posters are already shooting off fireworks about an NCAA decision. It's the "NCAA"! Those banners are still hanging. Until they scrape the floor of the yum center on their way to permanent storage in an undisclosed basement, then it's no guarantee that they're gone. The appeal is yet to happen, and I think the boasting aka guarantees of the appeal failing and the banners falling by many posters is part defense mechanism (born out of wanting something so badly, and I get it, that they pre-maturely accept it as fact and over and done with) and part wishful-thinking.
Now I know the response that is sure to follow this post; "whatever UL fan" or "keep wishing Card fan" etc etc. I hate UL more than I hate ISIS. But I can't be the only one that is cautiously waiting for this whole thing to be final.
Banners will be taken down ,unfortunately for Cards fans
Anything can happen however.
Question- what does the NCAA have to gain by folding to a school that -- really
Isn't that nationally relevant, coach already has one sex scandal and know known for providing prostitutes for underage recruits .
It's kinda black and white . If they don't come down hard on Especially UL... and UNC it sets a bad precedent that anyone can't basically do what they want to get recruits . It would be a free for all- chaos
Congrats louisville (fan.)s - you may set the precedent for an all out free for all of cheating from other schools since you (may- like very very small chance ) keep your banner .
So classy
That is just so beautifully written. Someone go dig up that Bill Shakespear and show him this so he can see what real writing looks like.
How many of these UNC admins are going to come after Emmert and his organization for even questioning the Chapel HIll Cheaters Club? They've been exposed, its dragging on to somehow wear down the committee, yet the NCAA just puts fresh faces in the chairs to look at these allegations and reinstate the men's programs for this fraud of a higher learning institution.
Bubba's interview isn't going to sit well with the NCAA either.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-f...mic-fraud-defense-ncaa-overcharged-tar-heels/
This guy was hired to shut down this investigation and poke holes in it from every angle. He's not helping the case by daring the NCAA either. Sounds like Bubba would appreciate it if Swofford was the governing committee infractions decision maker to complete the circle of denial.
The most interesting off season in college basketball recently, and both headliners deserve their negative press. But you won't see it on ESPN will you?
Bubba's interview isn't going to sit well with the NCAA either.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-f...mic-fraud-defense-ncaa-overcharged-tar-heels/
This guy was hired to shut down this investigation and poke holes in it from every angle. He's not helping the case by daring the NCAA either. Sounds like Bubba would appreciate it if Swofford was the governing committee infractions decision maker to complete the circle of denial.
The most interesting off season in college basketball recently, and both headliners deserve their negative press. But you won't see it on ESPN will you?
I posted the same thing on the UNC board and was promptly banned for rules violation. Not sure what "rule" I violated since the tone of the post was pretty benign even if the content was damning (and true!).
Keeping those banners displayed in their rafters would result in further punishment and some serious mocking, like Helms banner type mocking. It's almost as dumb as UL taking the NCAA to court and fighting their punishments. All that's going to do is drag their reputation further into the mud pit. The details that will emerge would be ugly for them, but delicious for us.
Holy cow. That's kind of a bitch slap.
I had said when the UL punishments came down that it meant one of two things; either the NCAA actually has some balls and isn't afraid to divvy out punishment when it's deserved, or as @morgousky said, UL is the sacrificial lamb.
With statements like this^, it actually makes me think the former is more likely. But again, with the NCAA, you just never know.
The NCAA might as well not even exist if they back off and allow both programs to keep those banners.
Especially in UL's case because they've already ruled on that one, they simply can't go back now, their credibility would be shot and in reality, there is nothing anyone could say that would make those players eligible now.
Very good entire post. But this was the part that really got me.
![[laughing]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/laugh.r191677.gif "Laughing [laughing]")
That requires finding the players eligible. I don't know how you get there. Doing so would crush the NCAA.
No. It's simple logic. The ruling has already come down. The banners are gone. UL is appealing but the appeals process is very narrow in scope. There are 4 avenues for appeal. UL doesn't fit into any of them. For UL to keep their banner, the appeals committee would have to rule the players eligible. There is no reasonable way the appeals committee can come to that conclusion. It CAN'T happen, it would destroy the NCAA. Successful appeals are rare and usually involve secondary sanctions like what happened with Syracuse.
I love this gif. One of the GOAT.
I have heard this addressed through numerous media outlets and even in some threads here and on HOB, but the answer is no, the penalties are set and cannot be increased. They can only be lessened through appeal.
While I believe you are correct, I remember the NCAA threatening Memphis when they appealed that they were going to consider harsher penalties.
I agree with you, it will be the beginning of the end for the NCAA. Too much to turn their heads and walk away. Must be firm and heavy handed or they are done.
As another poster referenced, I think UNC winning the championship this past season opened the way for the NCCA to go heavier on them. As in taking 2005 and/or 2009 titles. This leaves Roy and UNC with a seemingly legit title. Who knows for sure.
Dennis Dodd, who has been covering this issue for years for CBS Sports posted on Twitter last night about the new NCAA language: "Can't Stress How Bad Seemingly This Looks For UNC..."
If there is any fairness in the universe, he's right.
Dodd, by the way, wrote back in 2014 that UNC deserved the "death penalty" so he has long had a pretty accurate view of the scandal.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-b...h-penalty-in-academic-fraud-case-but-it-wont/
If there is any fairness in the universe, he's right.
Dodd, by the way, wrote back in 2014 that UNC deserved the "death penalty" so he has long had a pretty accurate view of the scandal.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-b...h-penalty-in-academic-fraud-case-but-it-wont/
Ni
Nothing to see here folks!!! This is nothing more than a smoke screen and a charade...nothing will be done to them no matter what evidence they have...I HATE OTIS , but I would be raising 9 million kinds of hell when this is over if they are not punished severly.
Just in case anyone is a nerd like me and wants to read more about the NCAA and UNC's back and forth, I found a link to correspondence between the two that was obtained pursuant to a FOI request.
http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/u...respondence-cited-in-public-records-requests/
Some interesting points.
1. UNC response to the second ANOA was limited to 50 pages with supplemental exhibits. UNC submitted a response that had 100 pages of argument and 2400 pages of supplemental exhibits. The NCAA only accepted the overlength response to keep the case on it's current timetable. I'm sure some poor intern had the responsibility for condensing down their argument.
2. UNC was warned to stop leaking information to the press regarding the investigation. UNC's continued commitment to confidentiality was going to be reviewed. I get the sense that Sankey is pissed that ESPN is continually carrying UNC's water for them in their defense. "The panel will not decide this case by public comment on confidential or incomplete information."
3. Apparently the issue with confidentiality stems from the media publishing "confidential case-related information" in February 2017 which was provided by UNC's AD.
4. The committee consists of representatives from Kent State and Bowling Green, Belmont University Law School, Temple, Northern Illinois, Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, random New York attorney, and Greg Sankey.
http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/u...respondence-cited-in-public-records-requests/
Some interesting points.
1. UNC response to the second ANOA was limited to 50 pages with supplemental exhibits. UNC submitted a response that had 100 pages of argument and 2400 pages of supplemental exhibits. The NCAA only accepted the overlength response to keep the case on it's current timetable. I'm sure some poor intern had the responsibility for condensing down their argument.
2. UNC was warned to stop leaking information to the press regarding the investigation. UNC's continued commitment to confidentiality was going to be reviewed. I get the sense that Sankey is pissed that ESPN is continually carrying UNC's water for them in their defense. "The panel will not decide this case by public comment on confidential or incomplete information."
3. Apparently the issue with confidentiality stems from the media publishing "confidential case-related information" in February 2017 which was provided by UNC's AD.
4. The committee consists of representatives from Kent State and Bowling Green, Belmont University Law School, Temple, Northern Illinois, Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, random New York attorney, and Greg Sankey.
I get teary eyed just reading this Reply Memo..... it is beautiful.
https://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/...ent-Reply-2016-2nd-Amended-NOA-07-17-2017.pdf
"Before discussing individual allegations, it is important to address the threshold question of whether anything in this case is the NCAA's business. The institution says no and can only reach that position by rejecting large portions of an exhaustive external inquiry, discounting information provided by its own representatives, relying on its own tailored summaries drafted for its regional accrediting agency and attributing inaccurate positions or motives to the enforcement staff. The institution's desired outcome is not unexpected, but its analysis is materially flawed."
https://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/...ent-Reply-2016-2nd-Amended-NOA-07-17-2017.pdf
"Before discussing individual allegations, it is important to address the threshold question of whether anything in this case is the NCAA's business. The institution says no and can only reach that position by rejecting large portions of an exhaustive external inquiry, discounting information provided by its own representatives, relying on its own tailored summaries drafted for its regional accrediting agency and attributing inaccurate positions or motives to the enforcement staff. The institution's desired outcome is not unexpected, but its analysis is materially flawed."
I'm holding out hope that UNCheat gets "everything" they "deserve" in this scandalous situation. Maybe they actually will...
"In this case, the institution and certain administrators provided extra benefits to student-athletes for over nearly 10 years, in two ways: access to and assistance in anomalous courses. There is no material factual dispute regarding the nature of the arrangements provided. Rather, the institution argues that the same arrangements were generally available to other students. The argument is incorrect and mischaracterizes the clear statements of numerous individuals with personal knowledge of the special arrangements. This written reply will summarize the origin of the anomalous courses and address student-athletes' access to the courses and the assistance provided to them following enrollment."
"Crowder worked regularly with the ASPSA staff and, in some instances, developed a close relationship with the individuals employed within ASPSA. As Crowder noted in her interview, she and Burgess McSwain, former tutor for ASPSA, were practically like "sisters."9 Crowder also had a relationship with the men's basketball program. She stated in her interview, "at some level I am indeed part of the Carolina basketball family" by virtue of a personal relationship with a former letter winner"
"Crowder and the AFRI/AFAM department began offering anomalous or "special arrangement" courses in 1999.11 These were closed enrollment classes where Crowder had almost exclusive enrollment authority. They were not published as options in the student catalog and they were not advertised in the institution's schedule of classes."
"During her interview, Crowder consistently and specifically referred to them as "special arrangements." Whatever name is assigned, there is no dispute that the courses were very different from other institutional offerings. It is also clear that administrators exploited them on behalf of student-athletes for eligibility purposes and other athletics advantages."
"There came a point where Crowder had so many student-athletes in her office attempting to register for these courses that she instituted new processes. For example, she requested that athletics academic counselors in ASPSA send her a list each term of the student-athletes they wanted enrolled in special arrangement courses. There is no information in the record suggesting that she made similar "group enrollment" accommodations for any other segment of campus."
"Rather, Crowder stated that she made "special arrangements" for student-athletes because classes sometimes impacted a student-athlete's practice time. Crowder essentially equated a student caring for a parent with cancer to a studentathlete who needed to attend a team practice"
"the ASPSA counselors instead viewed these courses as options where student-athletes did not have to attend class, stay awake and take notes, meet with professors, turn in their work or even pay attention to the material."
"As Crowder noted in her interview, students who enrolled in these courses would receive an A or B unless they submitted something out of the ordinary. Crowder's grading standards consisted of only checking to see if a paper was of the required length, was on the assigned topic and had a bibliography. If it met those conditions, she awarded a grade of A or B, consistent with Nyang'oro's standards."
"Reynolds noted that if someone other than Crowder graded the papers, the student-athletes would receive "D's and C's at best"
"Crowder worked regularly with the ASPSA staff and, in some instances, developed a close relationship with the individuals employed within ASPSA. As Crowder noted in her interview, she and Burgess McSwain, former tutor for ASPSA, were practically like "sisters."9 Crowder also had a relationship with the men's basketball program. She stated in her interview, "at some level I am indeed part of the Carolina basketball family" by virtue of a personal relationship with a former letter winner"
"Crowder and the AFRI/AFAM department began offering anomalous or "special arrangement" courses in 1999.11 These were closed enrollment classes where Crowder had almost exclusive enrollment authority. They were not published as options in the student catalog and they were not advertised in the institution's schedule of classes."
"During her interview, Crowder consistently and specifically referred to them as "special arrangements." Whatever name is assigned, there is no dispute that the courses were very different from other institutional offerings. It is also clear that administrators exploited them on behalf of student-athletes for eligibility purposes and other athletics advantages."
"There came a point where Crowder had so many student-athletes in her office attempting to register for these courses that she instituted new processes. For example, she requested that athletics academic counselors in ASPSA send her a list each term of the student-athletes they wanted enrolled in special arrangement courses. There is no information in the record suggesting that she made similar "group enrollment" accommodations for any other segment of campus."
"Rather, Crowder stated that she made "special arrangements" for student-athletes because classes sometimes impacted a student-athlete's practice time. Crowder essentially equated a student caring for a parent with cancer to a studentathlete who needed to attend a team practice"
"the ASPSA counselors instead viewed these courses as options where student-athletes did not have to attend class, stay awake and take notes, meet with professors, turn in their work or even pay attention to the material."
"As Crowder noted in her interview, students who enrolled in these courses would receive an A or B unless they submitted something out of the ordinary. Crowder's grading standards consisted of only checking to see if a paper was of the required length, was on the assigned topic and had a bibliography. If it met those conditions, she awarded a grade of A or B, consistent with Nyang'oro's standards."
"Reynolds noted that if someone other than Crowder graded the papers, the student-athletes would receive "D's and C's at best"
"This is not the end of the institution's exploitation of "special arrangement" courses. In fact, ASPSA used these "special arrangement" courses for reasons that are very different from the reasons offered by Crowder. Primarily, athletics academic counselors used these courses to help maintain NCAA eligibility for student-athletes who were at risk academically. This, along with other benefits, such as the ability to control and monitor the administration of these courses, meant that student-athletes did not need to attend class or meet with AFRI/AFAM faculty or staff. Not only did this boost their NCAA eligibility, but it meant those student-athletes, unlike student-athletes at other member institutions, could spend more time on their sport. This made the courses especially valuable to athletics academic counselors, student-athletes and the athletics department."
"the access and assistance provided by the institution here do not help "maximize the academic performances of student-athletes." Rather, they alleviated the academic responsibilities for students that help them develop both as learners and adults. Instead of supporting academic and long-term success of student-athletes, they cut against this core principle of the Association."
I don't think UNC comes out with a slap but UNC Men's Basketball will. The Women's Basketball and minor sports may get the death penalty just so they can say they came down hard on UNC.
"The intentional conduct of Nyang'oro and Crowder and ASPSA administrators spanned from 2003 until 2011, which indicates a blatant disregard of basic and well-known NCAA bylaws."
Here's our timeline... 2003 to 2011. That puts the 2005 and 2009 Titles squarely on the chopping block.
Here's our timeline... 2003 to 2011. That puts the 2005 and 2009 Titles squarely on the chopping block.
ESPN ticker reported last night the NCAA has asked Roy Williams, the women's BB coach and the FB coach to come testify/talk to the COI in August. Anyone got any info on why they want to talk to them and is this a potential "let's make a deal" scenario that lets The Cheaters skate?
Sounds to me like the UNC women's soccer team and women's field hockey team needs to start preparing for sanctions.
"Despite the concerns within athletics, neither campus officials, nor Dick Baddour, former director of athletics, provided support or guidance to athletics on this issue. Ultimately, institutional leaders chose not to act. This allowed the problem not only to continue, but to worsen."
"However, despite the warning to reduce enrollment numbers and despite Blanchard's and Mercer's concerns about the courses, student-athletes continued to use these courses at a disproportionate rate and continued to accept impermissible assistance in completing them. Meanwhile, nobody from the institution's leadership looked into why athletics found these courses so useful."
"However, despite the warning to reduce enrollment numbers and despite Blanchard's and Mercer's concerns about the courses, student-athletes continued to use these courses at a disproportionate rate and continued to accept impermissible assistance in completing them. Meanwhile, nobody from the institution's leadership looked into why athletics found these courses so useful."
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/unc-now/article163524843.html
Raleigh News Observer (who has slam dunked the coverage of this from day 1)...
"After more than a year’s worth of delays and three NCAA notices of allegations, UNC-Chapel Hill has at last received its date to appear before the NCAA Committee on Infractions, which is the judge and jury in major NCAA investigations.
UNC representatives will appear before the committee on Aug. 16 in Nashville, Tenn. The hearing, which will help shape what penalties and sanctions the university might face in the wake of an investigation into how suspect African Studies courses benefited athletes, could last for two days.
University Chancellor Carol Folt will attend the hearing, as will Bubba Cunningham, the athletic director. The NCAA has requested that men’s basketball coach Roy Williams, football coach Larry Fedora and women’s basketball coach Sylvia Hatchell also attend."
Raleigh News Observer (who has slam dunked the coverage of this from day 1)...
"After more than a year’s worth of delays and three NCAA notices of allegations, UNC-Chapel Hill has at last received its date to appear before the NCAA Committee on Infractions, which is the judge and jury in major NCAA investigations.
UNC representatives will appear before the committee on Aug. 16 in Nashville, Tenn. The hearing, which will help shape what penalties and sanctions the university might face in the wake of an investigation into how suspect African Studies courses benefited athletes, could last for two days.
University Chancellor Carol Folt will attend the hearing, as will Bubba Cunningham, the athletic director. The NCAA has requested that men’s basketball coach Roy Williams, football coach Larry Fedora and women’s basketball coach Sylvia Hatchell also attend."
Very intrigued that the NCAA has established the 2003-2011 timeline. To me, one of the problems facing the NCAA punishers was that you couldn't just wipe out 25 years of games. But 8-9 years? Maybe.
If -- and it's still a big if -- the next several months result in Louisville surrendering a championship and a Final Four, and UNC surrendering two championships, that'll mark for me maybe the greatest non-UK related series of events in college basketball history.
If -- and it's still a big if -- the next several months result in Louisville surrendering a championship and a Final Four, and UNC surrendering two championships, that'll mark for me maybe the greatest non-UK related series of events in college basketball history.
