Dude I've been on here for years and just now realized that's Fredo Santana in your avatar.
These statements should settle, permanently, any debate about the GOAT.
- Thread starter BigBlueFanGA
- Start date
One guy basically played just 13 years and scored 32k points in that time and won 6 rings but also won 3 in a row retired for damn near 2 and won 3 more in a row and first full year back won 72 regular season games never went to a game 7, while also winning multiple scoring titles and also in those scoring title years make all denfensive team, one guy would take the best player from the other team and play defense on that player,
tell me what the other guy has to compare to this
been to the finals 10 times won 4 bounced from team to team trying to establish and recruit the top talent in the league, this guy played 20 years and just now reaching the same heights , this guy does “load management “ aka I just don’t feel like playing tonight, this guy has been seen allowing opponents to drive the length of the court while he just walks out of the way and watches the opponent score, this guy couldn’t even wear his own number he had to wear the other guys, sure he rebounds and has assists he has four rings he’s 6’8 but guess what magic did the same and had more rings, so is this really a debate? Or is it that some have forgotten in this watered down league what greatness really looks like,
Jordan was the goat of his era.
LeBron is the goat of his era.
Even Jordan said this. You gotta go by eras.
LeBron is the goat of his era.
Even Jordan said this. You gotta go by eras.
I figured most people on here didn’t know who it was lol.
I just never got a good look at it. I listen to drill more than pretty much anything. Fredo was a real life gangsta.
What in the hell does all that have to do with what I said about someone's avatar?
A lot if we’re debating The Who the goat is, not so much if your just wanting to look at a avatar
Quit being an ass bro. It's blatantly obvious I can say whatever I want in a thread, especially when I noticed something id missed for years. Go watch The Last Dance.
My bad I just realized I quoted your post about the avatar thought I quoted about the goat debate, yea I could see where that looks like I’m being a ass, my apologies meant no harm about the avatar just replied to the wrong post
I think Jordan is the best but Bill Russell, I think is undervalued. He was an amazing player, though from a different era, but made such a major impact. He played against some great teams with legendary players but still made the difference in the Celtics being so dominate. So, I'm promoting Russell while saying Jordan is #1. Yep, I'm a confused person.
Championships doesn’t decide the GOAT debate in my book. It’s a team sport. If it were tennis or golf then yeah championships would probably go a long way in determining the GOAT. Finals MVPs doesn’t decide it either. It just means that you were the best player on the best team during that time and not the greatest player on any team of all time. To me, there is no clear cut argument for Jordan or Lebron. I think Kareem and Wilt are right there with them. Those 4 separate themselves a little from the pack. It seems like Jordan still gets the most votes so I’m going to make argument why he isn’t the clear cut goat.
Jordan is a career 1-9 in the NBA playoffs without Pippen. Pippen won 6 playoff games without Jordan the very first year after Jordan retired in 1993. Pippen has had more playoff success without Jordan than Jordan has had without Pippen. In 5 seasons that Jordan played without Pippen by his side he has just won a single playoff game and never had a single season of .500 basketball. In 6 seasons that Pippen has played without Jordan by his side, Pippen has 20 playoff wins and was above .500 all 6 seasons. Not saying Pippen is a better player than Jordan but just showing that without Pippen, Jordan can’t win anything. People forget how good Pippen was. Some say Jordan carried him but their careers without each other shows the opposite. In 1992-93, the Chicago Bulls went 57-25. Jordan retires and 1993-94 Chicago Bulls go 55-27 without him. I think people forget how good Pippen was and that he was very important to Jordan’s career. Pippen was known as a point forward. He was basically bringing the ball up the court and playing point guard which allowed Jordan to conserve his energy. A lot of times Pippen guarded the other teams best player even if it was a backcourt player to allow Jordan to rest. Pippen made Jordan one of the greatest players ever.
Jordan is a career 1-9 in the NBA playoffs without Pippen. Pippen won 6 playoff games without Jordan the very first year after Jordan retired in 1993. Pippen has had more playoff success without Jordan than Jordan has had without Pippen. In 5 seasons that Jordan played without Pippen by his side he has just won a single playoff game and never had a single season of .500 basketball. In 6 seasons that Pippen has played without Jordan by his side, Pippen has 20 playoff wins and was above .500 all 6 seasons. Not saying Pippen is a better player than Jordan but just showing that without Pippen, Jordan can’t win anything. People forget how good Pippen was. Some say Jordan carried him but their careers without each other shows the opposite. In 1992-93, the Chicago Bulls went 57-25. Jordan retires and 1993-94 Chicago Bulls go 55-27 without him. I think people forget how good Pippen was and that he was very important to Jordan’s career. Pippen was known as a point forward. He was basically bringing the ball up the court and playing point guard which allowed Jordan to conserve his energy. A lot of times Pippen guarded the other teams best player even if it was a backcourt player to allow Jordan to rest. Pippen made Jordan one of the greatest players ever.
Very debatable. Loook at he's stats. Show one player that could average over fifty. Double is assists. He's the best
Bill wasn't the best. He was the MVP. WON with several different lineups.
My list and I say this as a Kobe homer.
1. MJ
2. Lebron - his last Chip did it for me his body of work is just too much to overcome for Kobe. Although I do disagree who the better player was.
3. Kareem
4. Kobe
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Shaq
As a Lakers fan.... damn we've had some talent!
1. MJ
2. Lebron - his last Chip did it for me his body of work is just too much to overcome for Kobe. Although I do disagree who the better player was.
3. Kareem
4. Kobe
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Shaq
As a Lakers fan.... damn we've had some talent!
Compare that with Bird's impact on the Celtics. Immediate turnaround.
Bird made them better from the get go. Jordan had success early but not like Bird.
Agreed, that's why I said Jordan was the best. I was just saying I think Russell belongs very high on the list and was just giving him props.
I heard something telling one time on ESPN about LBJ vs MJ. Pretty sure they said the Cavs went from ECFs to last in the NBA when LBJ left, whereas the Bulls won a playoff series the first year after MJ. Can't stand LBJ, but that is a pretty valuable nugget when comparing the two and putting such a high value on MJ's rings.
Not reading through this whole thread, so pardon me if already mentioned...seems like most people omit the other side of the ball when discussing who is the greatest. MJ won DPOY, something LeBron has never done. I put a great deal of stock in that as well.
I agree that Jordan is the greatest to ever play the game. I had the privilege of seeing many of his regular season games and nearly all his playoff games when he was in his prime. If he hadn't taken 2 years off to play baseball, he would have won 8 titles in a row.
As for the rest, an argument can be made for LeBron, Bird, Kobe, Wilt, Magic, being #2. LeBron has definitely made a case for being alone in 2nd place, and there is certainly no shame in that, but he hasn't surpassed MJ. He has made it an actual debate, though, and I never thought anyone ever would.
Now, if LeBron transforms his game in his later years and goes on a run and wins more titles, I'll have to re-evaluate. Jordan did that. He went from being a guy who physically dominated people with his speed, athleticism, agility, and became a great mid-range shooter who beat people with his skill, his will, and intelligence.
As for the rest, an argument can be made for LeBron, Bird, Kobe, Wilt, Magic, being #2. LeBron has definitely made a case for being alone in 2nd place, and there is certainly no shame in that, but he hasn't surpassed MJ. He has made it an actual debate, though, and I never thought anyone ever would.
Now, if LeBron transforms his game in his later years and goes on a run and wins more titles, I'll have to re-evaluate. Jordan did that. He went from being a guy who physically dominated people with his speed, athleticism, agility, and became a great mid-range shooter who beat people with his skill, his will, and intelligence.
Don’t forget Kareem. His case for #2 is as strong as anyone’s. 6 MVPs, 6 championships, 19 time All-Star, 15 times All-NBA, 11 times All-Defense, ROY, All-Time scoring leader & had career averages of 25/11/4/1/3. And, he did it without forming a new super team every 5 years to chase rings & cheapen their significance.
I would say Jordan. Bird had a 3 year run that was at that level, but then got hurt. Russell was honestly before my time but is right up there. Magic and Kareem, then Le Bron.
The game was totally different during Chamberlains hay day to be fair.
As an example, in Wilt's rookie season of '60 his team took 8678 shots in a 75 game season. In Jordan's rookie year of '85 the Bulls took 6909 shots in a 82 game season. The average FG percentage of NBA teams in '60 was 41% and teams shot 108 shots per game. In '85, 50% shooting and 89 shots per game was league average.
We went through this same debate between Oscar vs UK centers of past. The game was littered with misses in '50's and '60's.
Not to mention there was nowhere near the competitve landscape that NBA was 35 years ago to now.
Last thing I'd add in comparing another player....look at Wilt's best scoring season and compare it to Shaq's. Wilt scored 50.4ppg in '62. He took 40FG and 17 FT to get it. Shot 51% from field and 61% from line. Shaq's best was 29.7ppg in '00, 21FG and 10FT attempts per game, 57%/52%. Translate Shaq's FG% into Wilt's attempts....Shaq would have averaged 54.4ppg.
Wilt's numbers are insane but he is not the best player of all time. Hell, you do that same thing with Jordan, 40 FGA per game and 17 FTA per game and at points in time in his career he averages 60ppg.
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You might want to review Russell's career. It wasn't like he was a slacker on the Celtics.
Does Boston win those titles without him? That's the question. Maybe they do....maybe they don't. Russell won early in his career.
It took MJ a while to get his first ring.
Bird had his ring in year two....Magic year one.
MJ went to a pathetic team when he was drafted. Chicago was literally a joke until MJ got there.
You make some great points. In my opinion, Jordan may be the GOAT, but if I've got the first draft pick in the all-time greats draft, I'm picking Larry Bird. Makes everybody around him better, which makes for the better team in a team game.
I love how Wilt gets penalized because he was so much better than everyone he played. The guy had the best stats ever and won 2 titles. He is easily top 10.
Boston was also pretty pathetic prior to Bird arriving.
Look at the record books boys ! Wilt still has eighty records , they changed the game to slow him down , the changed the game to help Jordan and that’s a fact !,
Jordan is the best player of all time and it isn't close. Honestly, it isn't.
Best scorer for a generation and best defender at his position for same time period with 6 titles during an era where NBA was loaded with stars.
Best scorer for a generation and best defender at his position for same time period with 6 titles during an era where NBA was loaded with stars.
The Bulls weren’t awful when Jordan left the first time in 94. They went from a 57-25 with him to a 55-27 without him. Then Jordan came back in 1995 and the Bulls won less playoff games that year than they did in 1994 without him.
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