These statements should settle, permanently, any debate about the GOAT.

[HagginHall1999]

The Bulls weren’t awful when Jordan left the first time in 94. They went from a 57-25 with him to a 55-27 without him. Then Jordan came back in 1995 and the Bulls won less playoff games that year than they did in 1994 without him.

Meant after he was gone for good. Of course they were good the year he retired first...the team was still intact. It wasn't like he was surrounded by scrubs.

'95 was statistically his worst year ever having come back a month or so before playoffs after a near 2 year retirement.... understandable.

Hey, at least we agree on '96 as CBB GOAT 😆

Jordan is on another level IMHO. Wish he wasn't a Tar Heel but facts are facts.

 

[JonathanW]

I’ve yet to hear anyone call Lebron the GOAT, except for Lebron himself.
So is it even a debate.

 

[UK96GOAT]

Meant after he was gone for good. Of course they were good the year he retired first...the team was still intact. It wasn't like he was surrounded by scrubs.

'95 was statistically his worst year ever having come back a month or so before playoffs after a near 2 year retirement.... understandable.

Hey, at least we agree on '96 as CBB GOAT 😆

Jordan is on another level IMHO. Wish he wasn't a Tar Heel but facts are facts.

Well of course the Bulls were pitiful after he retired the second time cause the team was blew up. That’s not a very supportive argument for Jordan being the GOAT though since the Bulls lost everyone. If they stunk after his first retirement and he was the only player that they were without, then that would have helped his argument.

Jordan’s numbers in the 95 NBA playoffs were statistically better than in 96. He was rusty during the regular season but was in form by the playoffs. His FG%, ppg, rpg, spg, bpg, apg, were all better in the 95 playoffs then in the 96 playoffs.

I think Jordan is great and definitely one of a few that can be considered the GOAT. I just don’t think it’s clear cut for him or Lebron. In an earlier post I said Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, and Wilt were all players I think can have an argument as the GOAT. I don’t think there is any clear cut argument for any of them but since Jordan is still probably the most popular pick, I was making arguments why he isn’t clear cut and not really trying to prove he isn’t deserving of consideration. I think those 4 players kind of separate themselves from the rest of the pack. I think it’s insulting to Kareem and Wilt for most ppl to think it’s just a two man argument between Jordan and Lebron.

 

[HagginHall1999]

Well of course the Bulls were pitiful after he retired the second time cause the team was blew up. That’s not a very supportive argument for Jordan being the GOAT though since the Bulls lost everyone. If they stunk after his first retirement and he was the only player that they were without, then that would have helped his argument.

Jordan’s numbers in the 95 NBA playoffs were statistically better than in 96. He was rusty during the regular season but was in form by the playoffs. His FG%, ppg, rpg, spg, bpg, apg, were all better in the 95 playoffs then in the 96 playoffs.

I think Jordan is great and definitely one of a few that can be considered the GOAT. I just don’t think it’s clear cut for him or Lebron. In an earlier post I said Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, and Wilt were all players I think can have an argument as the GOAT. I don’t think there is any clear cut argument for any of them but since Jordan is still probably the most popular pick, I was making arguments why he isn’t clear cut and not really trying to prove he isn’t deserving of consideration. I think those 4 players kind of separate themselves from the rest of the pack. I think it’s insulting to Kareem and Wilt for most ppl to think it’s just a two man argument between Jordan and Lebron.

His stats weren't better in 1995 if you take a deep dive. Look at turnovers. Look at 3pt FG%. Look at every win share. He was totally off and rusty in '95.

There plenty of players to debate but no one had success of Jordan in modern era.

Wilt and Kareem were stat stuffers who played in a totally different era of basketball. LBJ is nowhere near Jordan, laughable.

 

[BigCat241]

LBJ is nowhere near Jordan, laughable.

Based off of what?

 

[king of cali]

Kareem was a stat stuffer? First time I’ve ever heard him called that. I can go along with Jordan as GOAT, but people try to make it seem like he has an unassailable resume and no one can touch him. That is patently false.

Kareem definitely has a case with just as many titles as MJ, more MVPs and winning Finals MVP at 38. And that’s in addition to him having the scoring record of course.

 

[HagginHall1999]

Kareem was a stat stuffer? First time I’ve ever heard him called that. I can go along with Jordan as GOAT, but people try to make it seem like he has an unassailable resume and no one can touch him. That is patently false.

Kareem definitely has a case with just as many titles as MJ, more MVPs and winning Finals MVP at 38. And that’s in addition to him having the scoring record of course.

Who else is 6 for 6 in titles and finals MVP's? Who has 10 scoring titles? Then 9 defensive first team all NBA defensively? A DPOY for a 10 time scoring champ...unheard of. Especially for a guy who isn't 7' tall.

Based off of what?

More titles, 6 for 6. More MVP's. More Finals MVP's, 6 for 6. More scoring titles. More all first team NBA defense, far superior defender which is probably the biggest reason. DPOY, 3x steal leader in league.

Lastly he played against some all of time greatest in a far more balanced NBA. LeBron just hops around looking for the next superstar to team up with.

LBJ is a great player but he isn't on Jordan's level, JMHO.

 

[king of cali]

Who else is 6 for 6 in titles and finals MVP's? Who has 10 scoring titles? Then 9 defensive first team all NBA defensively? A DPOY for a 10 time scoring champ...unheard of. Especially for a guy who isn't 7' tall.





More titles, 6 for 6. More MVP's. More Finals MVP's, 6 for 6. More scoring titles. More all first team NBA defense, far superior defender which is probably the biggest reason. DPOY, 3x steal leader in league.

Lastly he played against some all of time greatest in a far more balanced NBA. LeBron just hops around looking for the next superstar to team up with.

LBJ is a great player but he isn't on Jordan's level, JMHO.

So you penalize guys for losing in the Finals, yet all the years Jordan never even made it that far isn’t factored in? Interesting.

You’re talking as if Kareem’s, and a few resumes, don’t stack up and that is false. Kareem made 11 All Defense teams, won a couple of scoring titles, led the league in blocks etc. And not to mention his college career, where he is EASILY the best.

Again, i can agree that Jordan is the GOAT, but he’s not on some other tier where no one else can reach him.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Wilt is not in the discussion. Only winning 2 titles will do that to a guy.

 

[BigCat241]

More titles, 6 for 6. More MVP's. More Finals MVP's, 6 for 6. More scoring titles. More all first team NBA defense, far superior defender which is probably the biggest reason. DPOY, 3x steal leader in league.

Lastly he played against some all of time greatest in a far more balanced NBA. LeBron just hops around looking for the next superstar to team up with.

LBJ is a great player but he isn't on Jordan's level, JMHO.

I would not go as far to claim that MJ was the far superior defender. Lebron (not as much now) was/is a good defender especially in places where it counts (block on iggy). All those achievements you listed definitely help MJ's case but Lebrons longevity is going to help him immensely as he is going to end up better than MJ in most statistcal categories.

 

[UK96GOAT]

His stats weren't better in 1995 if you take a deep dive. Look at turnovers. Look at 3pt FG%. Look at every win share. He was totally off and rusty in '95.

There plenty of players to debate but no one had success of Jordan in modern era.

Wilt and Kareem were stat stuffers who played in a totally different era of basketball. LBJ is nowhere near Jordan, laughable.

In the playoffs his stats were better in 95 than 96. I mean fg%, points per games, rebounds per game, assist per game, blocks per game, and steals per game were all better. I think that is a deep enough dive into the stats. He was in pretty good form by the playoffs. He is 1-9 in playoff games without Pippen. Zero winning seasons in the five seasons he played without Pippen. Pippen had 6 winning seasons without Jordan and 20 career playoff wins without him.

As for different eras, Jordan entered his prime at a time that the dynasty Celtics and Lakers were on their way out. He better be glad that Kareem was exiting his era and Larry Bird was older with back problems and bone spurs on both heels, and Magic Johnson retiring early with HIV. Magic had to retire at 31 with 5 rings and had to play finals against the great Celtics dynasty. Magic also had a season ending injury in Game 2 in one of the Finals he was in. Magic still only has one less ring than Jordan despite injury early in a finals, playing against the Celtics dynasty, and early retirement with HIV at 31. Jordan only had 3 rings when he was 31. Jordan didn’t have to beat any dynasty teams for his rings. He played 5 different teams for his 6 rings because there were no dominant team besides his team, and yes I know they beat the Lakers in 91. Kareem was gone, Mike Dunleavy was the coach, and they were just the 3 seed in the West. Jordan got lucky that his dominant team was in an era between the Lakers/Celtics era and before the Shaq/Kobe era.

Once again I’m not saying all of this to say anybody is better than Jordan. I’m just arguing he’s not on his own level all by himself . I don’t think there is any definite answer for the GOAT (except for the UK 96 team, lol). I think it’s more of a Mount Rushmore type thing where it’s Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, and Lebron. Even that’s not a sure thing either but just my opinion.

 

[blue woman]

WILT

all the others vie for #2

rr