So Tom Brady is the GOAT, right?

[LineSkiCat14]

^False False False False False..

As a normally great poster, that's absurd. The mastermind isn't Brady.. the mastermind is Belichick. Bill and Cal are the ones who dominate the game and change the landscape. Brady is just a player, for a team where Matt Cassle can get 11 wins and 2nd and 3rd string QBs even find success.

Everyone laughed that Brady was drafted in what, the 6th round? We look back and say "How's that possible".. Maybe the scouts weren't wrong. Brady got into a fastly improving organization with brand new ownership and choaching (two HOFers), got to sit for a few years to learn the system. His arm is nothing special, he's not mobile, and he gets rattled easily.

Brady is a pretty good QB who hit the jackpot.

 

[herodotus6]

The only people still denying Tom as the GOAT are the same type of people who won't give Calipari his due after a surface-level investigation of his history and declare "he's a cheater".

Ignorant fans who abide by confirmation bias.

False. Don't make a blanket statement to try to prove a point. You can find the letters sent by the NCAA to Calipari exonerating him of any wrongdoing in the Camby case, and he was never mentioned in the Rose case. Just like you can look at New England's record and see that average QB's can win in their system when Brady is out. Do better.

 

[herodotus6]

His two current top receivers, Edelman and Hogan, had 13 career receptions in college.

So. How great were Brady's college stats?

 

[herodotus6]

How great is anybody if they play for terrible franchises? How many titles does Kobe have if he plays for Charlotte? How many titles does Emmit Smith have if he plays for the Bengals?

Not just anyone can be plugged into the system and win Super Bowls. It didn't work for Bill in Cleveland. He went 5-11 with NE the year before Brady took over as his starter. Not to mention, Matt Cassell's stats weren't crazy. He threw for 21 TDs and 11 INTs for 3,600 yards. The year before that, Brady threw for 50 TDs, 8 INTs and 4,800 yards.

Which is exactly my point. So far, anybody can be plugged into the NE system and win. That isn't a testament to Brady. That is all about Bill.

 

[ThroughBlue]

NO!!! Brady is the beneficiary of being surrounded by some amazing talent for an extended period of time. That talent has made him look much better than he really is. Put Brady on the damn Browns and see if he ever sniffs a Super Bowl.

He has been in the league for how many years? How many of those years did he have all pro receivers? I don't know the answer but I bet not close to all of them. Moss and welker maybe. But what did welker do before or after he was at NE? His receivers are middle of the pack AT BEST

 

[LineSkiCat14]

As a Jets fan, I won't lie that I hate that cheating organization, and Boston fans of some of the scummiest people on Earth.. But, I am a biased Jets fan, and New York fans aren't much easier.

So while it pains me to say this.. Bill is the GOAT.. He was the Goat like 5 years ago, and no one is touching that guy. The Dude is the damn GM, taking on two jobs.. unreal. But this isn't Brady.. If Bill AND Brady were the goats? They'd have more than 1 title in 12 years going 5-1 and 6-0 in their division to endless conference titles and home field Advantage..

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

Just looked up the season where Cassell played for the Pats. They won three games over teams with a winning record. Three of their 11 wins came over teams that were above .500.

Bills- 7-9 record (2 wins)
Raiders 5-11
Seahawks 4-12
Rams 2-14
49ers 7-9
Chiefs 2-14
Broncos 8-8
Jets 9-7
Cards 9-7
Dolphins 11-5

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Brady plays the Bills Jets and Dolphins year in and year out. Collectively, over 15 years, those three teams have made the playoffs a combined, like.. 5 times. Bad bad division in recent years. Dolphins and Bills were coming off their great seasons just as Pats started to pick it up.

Still, Brady plays 6 games a year against teams that rarely have a winning record.. automatically. factor in another 3-4 games over crap teams..

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me, with $5 million on the line, why they would pick Brady as the guy they want as QB.. over Rodgers, Ryan, Wilson, Carr and Brees from this year.. and also from guys in the past like your Mannings, Favres, etc.

 

[Pope John Wall II]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me, with $5 million on the line, why they would pick Brady as the guy they want as QB.. over Rodgers, Ryan, Wilson, Carr and Brees from this year.. and also from guys in the past like your Mannings, Favres, etc.

Is it in a game that matters? If so, that immediately discredits HGH Manning.
I don't want to have my QB get picked off, so that eliminated Favre.
I don't want my quarterback being carried by an all-time defense, so that eliminates Wilson.
I don't want my quarterback to ever be a Raider, so that eliminated Carr.

I do, however, want my QB to be absolutely proven beyond a shadow-of-a-doubt in clutch, crunchtime playoff performances, capable of leading 2-minute drills when it matters the most. This leaves me Brady and Rodgers, and I'm confident with both of them.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Is it in a game that matters? If so, that immediately discredits HGH Manning.
I don't want to have my QB get picked off, so that eliminated Favre.
I don't want my quarterback being carried by an all-time defense, so that eliminates Wilson.
I don't want my quarterback to ever be a Raider, so that eliminated Carr.

I do, however, want my QB to be absolutely proven beyond a shadow-of-a-doubt in clutch, crunchtime playoff performances, capable of leading 2-minute drills when it matters the most. This leaves me Brady and Rodgers, and I'm confident with both of them.

Why discredit Manning? If it's for cheating, then we discredit Brady too. Manning may have had the better receivers, but he had a worse everything else.

Brady wasn't carried by all-time defenses? You ever look at the defensive rosters in the early 2000's? Seymour, McGinist, Bruschi, Phifer, Vrabel, Law?

Favre played in a different era, where it was alright to touch the QB. He did it similar to how Manning did it.. he was far and away the best player on the team, making many better around him. Risen was great, but who else? Freeman? Meh.

And now you're eliminating guys based on "feelings". That's fine. You have a bias, somewhere. But you failed to make legitimate arguments why you'd take Brady.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Also, if we want the real 2 minute guy, then it's Eli Manning. After all, no one has done it like he has..

And Manning is more or less a fringe top10 QB year in and year out. Which tells me that while poised late-clock drives are great and something you want, they aren't everything.

 

[Xception]

Montana , Jerry Rice isn't what he was if Joe didn't put the ball exactly where it needed to be all the time . Rice rarely had to slow down or adjust and caught the ball in stride . Nothing wrong with other qb's named but I'm taking Montana if I had to choose , definition of clutch .

 

[fatguy87]

Based purely on individual numbers, Manning is better than Brady.

If the definition of "Greatness" also includes things like memorable moments and championships, then Brady certainly may claim that crown.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me, with $5 million on the line, why they would pick Brady as the guy they want as QB.. over Rodgers, Ryan, Wilson, Carr and Brees from this year.. and also from guys in the past like your Mannings, Favres, etc.

I sure as heck would over Favre especially because he ended multiple Green Bay seasons with INTs, he costs the Packers and Vikings trips to the Super Bowl with costly picks in the NFC title games in the 2007 and 2009 seasons. Favre also did the same thing against the Eagles in 2004, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I'd probably pick Brady over Favre.. But favre is just one of 20-30 qbs who I'd love to see with Bill and the Pats. Dude had a cannon and played in a high offense era that also allowed QBs to take a hit.

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

Which is exactly my point. So far, anybody can be plugged into the NE system and win. That isn't a testament to Brady. That is all about Bill.

Since when is winning the only ay to measure a QB? The QBs New England used this year when Brady were out were Mediocre (Jimmy G) or just flat sucked (Brisset) statistically. Cassell was a far cry from what Brady did statistically the season before and after. Cassell's passing yards total that season would only be Brady's 11th best. His TD total was only better than one of Brady's season's, the 2001 season, which was just Brady's second season in the league after appearing in just one game the year before

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Garappolo and Brisset are also young and getting their first starts. They both did pretty well going 3-1, smoking a bunch of those teams.

Garappolo was far from mediocre. There's a reason Pats are asking a 1st and a 4th for him.

Brady is a system QB. I love his intangibles, but he's rarely had to play with adversity, and has a stellar team around him at ALL times. I wonder what a 6th round pick's moxie would be like if he was stuck on the Jets or the Browns to start his career.. Would he have even seen 2004?

 

[SWVA WildcatFan]

HOT TAKE: Give any of the other three QBs that played today the line and receiving weapons he's had and they put up better numbers and win more titles.

Good Lord. Yep, Brady is pedestrian.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Good Lord. Yep, Brady is pedestrian.

IDK about winning more titles.. But that's not far off. Ryan and Rodgers had unquestionably better seasons. Big ben is iffy. He was injured.. But on the other hand he has weapons all over the field. Still, none of the three had great defenses to rely on.

Imagine what those three would do with the short, dink and dunk offense the Pats work with..

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

^False False False False False..

As a normally great poster, that's absurd. The mastermind isn't Brady.. the mastermind is Belichick. Bill and Cal are the ones who dominate the game and change the landscape. Brady is just a player, for a team where Matt Cassle can get 11 wins and 2nd and 3rd string QBs even find success.

Everyone laughed that Brady was drafted in what, the 6th round? We look back and say "How's that possible".. Maybe the scouts weren't wrong. Brady got into a fastly improving organization with brand new ownership and choaching (two HOFers), got to sit for a few years to learn the system. His arm is nothing special, he's not mobile, and he gets rattled easily.

Brady is a pretty good QB who hit the jackpot.

I didn't say that Brady was the mastermind. I'm simply saying their success is completely connected with each other. They both look good because of each other.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

That was to Pope, fwiw.

Brady still accounts for only half of the game (less, in actuality).. Bill's apart of the entire game, both sides of the ball. He's also acting GM, putting the entire team together from a talent and prospect standpoint.

Brady has never been a physical specimen.. Not in his feet and not in his arm. And that's certainly the case as he ages. Belichick has tailored this offense to compliment Brady to the fullest.. Small, quick receivers and TEs for short slants and screens. Multiple RBs on rotation with fresh legs for the hurry up. Brady snaps, and the ball is out in 2 seconds.

He just doesn't have the arm, legs, or body to do 40 yard bombs all game. Bill knows this and that's why they have guys like Hogan, edelman, etc. Perfect for Brady to dump the ball quick, not get hit, not get rattled and not get injured.

Belichick has molded this team intirely around Brady's needs, his deficiencies and his age.

 

[dgtatu01]

Brady had had the best offensive line in the of any team year in and year out to give him time to throw the football. And he's had targets like Moss, Welker, Troy Brown, Julian Edelman, and even though someone listed him as a shit WR, Deion Branch his entire career. You give those weapons and that much time to throw to any of the other three that played yesterday, I guarantee they put up better stats and win more Super Bowls than Brady.

Whoever tried to use Branch as an example of a horrible WR, he just averaged 13 YPC, 39TDs in 140 games with Brady, and won a Super Bowl MVP, but hey, he's awful. GTFO.

They ran Branch out of Seattle in 2 years while Seattle had Mike Holmgren, Shaun Alexander, and a good O-Line. They couldn't get him the ball. He goes back to New England for next to nothing and starts catching balls again. You made my point. Give me a break with Welker and Edelman. If they hadn't played in NE they wouldn't have had a career. Welker sucked in Miami. Chris Hogan played one year of college ball for Monmouth and Brady made him look as good as Julio Jones Sunday night.

 

[rockhound24]

I have always considered Bill and Brady as linked pair. I feel that sometimes we put WAY too much emphasis on just passing numbers. Sure Brady had Moss and now he has Gronk (when healthy), but for the most part Brady really hasn't had elite WR or RB's on his team. Bill and Brady seem to be able to execute whatever is needed to win the game. If they need to pound the ball then that is the gameplan. Some QB's can't handle the fact that they aren't the focus of the offense EVERY week. The object is to win the game. One could make the argument that although Brady is 4-2 in Super Bowls, David Tyree catch and Wes Welker's dropped pass are the only thing standing between Brady and 6 Super Bowl titles. I have always considered Joe Montana to be the best QB All-TIme but Brady is making me rethink that. Another aspect that I haven't seen on here is the salary cap money. Brady was the 16th highest payed QB in 2014, 21st highest paid QB in 2015 and 12 highest paid QB in 2016.

 

[JBHolmesfan]

They ran Branch out of Seattle in 2 years while Seattle had Mike Holmgren, Shaun Alexander, and a good O-Line. They couldn't get him the ball. He goes back to New England for next to nothing and starts catching balls again. You made my point. Give me a break with Welker and Edelman. If they hadn't played in NE they wouldn't have had a career. Welker sucked in Miami. Chris Hogan played one year of college ball for Monmouth and Brady made him look as good as Julio Jones Sunday night.

I don't know if it was Brady, but rather the system. Chad Johnson didn't succeed in New England after being a top flight WR for Cincinnati of all places. Chad has a good explanation saying that the system benefits guys like Edelman, Welker, running backs that can catch passes and tight ends. The system operates from the inside out. Other than Randy Moss, there's not many outside receivers that thrived in that system.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

I don't know if it was Brady, but rather the system. Chad Johnson didn't succeed in New England after being a top flight WR for Cincinnati of all places. Chad has a good explanation saying that the system benefits guys like Edelman, Welker, running backs that can catch passes and tight ends. The system operates from the inside out. Other than Randy Moss, there's not many outside receivers that thrived in that system.

On an unrelated note, I think Moss is the most talented receiver of all-time. I know he doesn't have the stats that Jerry Rice did but when Moss wanted to play, I'd take him over any other wide out to play the game.

 

[PhattyJ4UK]

I can't help but to imagine what a mattRyan or aaron rodgers would do with the lady 15 years of patriots teams/belichick

 

[dgtatu01]

/thread

 

[ThroughBlue]

Mods please ban everyone who said anything other than Tom is the goat

 

[-LEK-]

/thread

Shut it down.

 

[AFSTALLION13]

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Hard to deny it now. What he lacks physically, he makes up for mentally. They need to study his brain.

Can these two just please retire already..?

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

Imagine if ATL got more total yds, then we could bypass long time standing rules on how things work and declare them the winner #notmySBchamp

Am I doing it properly?

 

[15seconds?]

Was before and now no argument

 

[specialkd24]

Brady comes from 25 points down with this receiving group: Julian Edelman, Danny Amendola, Kevin Hogan, Malcolm Mitchell and Martellus Bennett.

Come on. That right there makes him the greatest of all-time.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

Super Bowls- 5 (2001,2003,2004, 2014, 2016)
Super Bowl MVPs- 4
AFC titles- 7 (2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011, 2014, 2016)
AFC title game appearances- 11 (01,03,04,06,07,11,12, 13,14,15,16)

This wasn't some short stretch. It was five titles spaced out between a 15-year time period. Montana won four from 1981-1989 and never won back-to-back. Bradshaw's was four between 1975-1980. Troy Aikman's won three between 1992-1995 and Elway won two back-to-back after losing about four.

It's simply incredible especially when you look at Brady's success in big games. He's also two miracle plays from having seven Super Bowls.

 

[15seconds?]

I give Elway credit he took three teams to the super bowl on his arm alone.Those three teams had no buisness in the super bowl.Then as old man won 2. Montana had a stacked team a coach who just implemented the biggest change in the game "The West Coast offense" and he was Great but wasn't the clear cut GOAT anyways.Brady is now the only GOAT whether you hate him or not.

 

[420grover]

Montana , Jerry Rice isn't what he was if Joe didn't put the ball exactly where it needed to be all the time . Rice rarely had to slow down or adjust and caught the ball in stride . Nothing wrong with other qb's named but I'm taking Montana if I had to choose , definition of clutch .

Yeah. That's why Jerry's career ended as soon as Montana retired. 12 years later.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

Brady's five Super Bowl victories were a combined 19 point total difference and he lost two by a total of 7 points.

2001 Pats over Rams by 3
2003 Pats over Panthers by 3
2004 Pats over Eagles by 3
2007 Pats lose to NYG by 3
2011 Pats lose to NYG by 4
2014 Pats over SEA by 4
2016 Pats over ATL by 6

 

[funKYcat75]

Just glad to see things are finally going the right way for ol' Tom. He had a rough stretch there for a while.