I mean, MJ was getting swept in the first round of the playoffs until Scottie came along. If Scottie didn’t come along, MJ would be ringless right now. There’s no way to dispute that. Scottie has a right to be upset that Jordan gets all the clout when Jordan wouldn’t be who he is without him. Fact!
Scottie on Michael
- Thread starter Smashcat
- Start date
He played what, one full season before Pippen? 😂 And they got swept by the Larry Bird led Celtics 😂
Look, the reality is you said Jordan would’ve never won a ring without Pippen. Then said “FACT!”. So this in not really an argument I have time for. It’s not a “FACT!” As it’s something that can never be proven or disproven, so it’s a waste of everyone’s time. “Jordan and the traveling cocaine circus” was what they called the bulls when he joined them. He missed the entire second season with a broken foot and then Larry Bird called him God. So I’ll just stick with Michael Jordan was talented enough to eventually win a championship if Pippen didnt join and whatever team was compromised around him and you can argue whatever hypothetical nonsense you want to argue.
I’m gasping for air from reading those run on sentences and trying to make sense of what you said.
You can think MJ would have won without Pippen if you want but there’s certainly not evidence to back it up.
Pippen made MJ who he was and that’s something that can’t be denied. 🤷♂️
Try reading it again and insert the periods where you want, the words should still make sense! You are arguing that MJ was not talented enough to win even one NBA championship in his entire career. That’s a really fun argument you’ve made, good luck with it!
If the Bulls didn’t surround him with the players they did, he would not have won a championship.
Not to bring Lebron into this convo but the Cavs did the opposite of the Bulls. They didn’t surround Lebron with anyone and he had to jump ship to get help. He then got accused of joining super teams but in reality was just getting the same help that MJ got that propelled him.
Lebron wouldn’t have won without Wade, Bosh, Kyrie or AD either.
Did anybody actually listen to what Pippen said??? Agree or disagree with what he said, his words are clearly being taken out of context by Greenburg. He called Jordan "horrible" because he did very little as a one on one, selfish player. He starred when he was surrounded by a powerhouse group of players.
You don't remember the Bulls before Jordan arrived..... It's not like the Bulls were world beaters... Made the playoffs a few times since '66.
Jordan vs LeBron, a battle of which narcissist was better at putting a ball through a hoop. I’d go with Jordan, the rings speak for themselves (they both have and have had great teammates). But this debate is quite silly to me either way.
Woah, so ONE of his 10 Finals teams had a typical NBA roster & that was 16 years ago. You really got me. If he had stayed in Cleveland & led them to more Finals/championships with those types of teams, he wouldn’t be mocked & criticized for ring chasing & needing ELITE teammates to win. And, his teams are STILL 4-6 in the Finals. THE GOAT doesn’t search out the easiest route to a ring & doesn’t lose 6/10 times when he does make it there.
False. His 2nd season he broke his foot and missed most of the season. FWIW, Pippen won nothing without MJ.
Look, I am all for you having the opinion that MJ wouldn't have won a championship without Scottie. It can't be proven one way or the other, but it is certainly cool to have that opinion.
However, to say Pippen made MJ who he was is downright ignorant. MJ was one of the best players in the league before Pippen was drafted. Pippen patterned his entire game after Jordan, offensively and defensively. Jordan made Pippen who he was. Anybody who covered the Bulls will tell you that. And that is not even a debate. There is a reason Scottie had MJ present him at his Hall of Fame induction.
And the following year they were 34-31 as the 7th seed in the East and immediately went 13-4 the last 17 games Jordan joined them.
He didn’t have an elite supporting cast. At least nowhere near as elite as LBJ’s. Pippen was an All-NBA player. But, who else? Horace Grant was a very good role player. Same with Kukoc. They got Rodman toward the end of MJ’s run, but, he was only elite on the glass & defensively. He was never a TOP player in the league. Ron Harper? Kerr, Paxson, Armstrong, Stacey King, Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Craig Hodges, Cliff Levingston?!
It was basically MJ, Pippen & a bunch of role players for his first 3 championships. Then, they added Rodman & Kukoc for the last 3, which was a better roster than 91-93, but, still nowhere near the level of LBJ’s Finals teams. MJ was swept bc he missed nearly all of one season, but, mostly bc the Celtics were still an all-time great team when he broke in & the Bulls were AWFUL when he got there. Plus, MJ had only played 3 seasons at that point & was still a young player. Just getting them to the playoffs at that stage was a major accomplishment.
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Even if Lebron was better than Michael, which I don’t believe. Lebron is such a “bitch”, complainer, on the court. For as big as he is, his constant bitching about getting fouled is over the top. Not to mention the videos of him flopping, which is just over the top.
Beyond that though, Michael just made it look better. Fundamentally it was just poetry in motion. Lebron is great. His stats are great. But he didn’t make it look as pretty as Jordan
What you said was clearly wrong still. And check the teams he played. SAS had 4 hall of famers, and GSW was literally the best team of all time, and he came back from 3-1 to beat them.
This. I mean, yeah, she’s smokin hot and all. However, with all the advantages of a pro athlete, he could’ve basically married whoever he wanted.
Rodman, pippen, kukoc were all great NBA players. They were as loaded as any team in the league was. If u take away the main star on any team they become mediocre. Do you really think the heat were great if lebron wasn't on it? You had wade and an avg Bosh
Don't give me reg season stats. Mean nothing.
Which part is wrong? Only one of LBJ’s 10 Finals teams wasn’t LOADED & hand picked. And, he has still lost 6/10. Of course, you need elite teammates. LBJ goes above & beyond even that. But, throughout history most every great player who won championships did it by waiting out the process of a team being built around them. ELITE players in their primes didn’t start hand picking teammates & building super teams until the Big 3 in Boston & LBJ a cpl years later. Sometimes a trade was made that paired up two superstars in the past, but, it wasn’t anything close to what we see today.
And, yeah LBJ isn’t the only one as several “superstars” in this era have done the same thing & jumped from team to team, chasing rings. But, just bc others did it, doesn’t make it ok. And, some have done it just so they could compete with LBJ’s teams. But, it’s a beta mentality. And, the Spurs’ great teams were built thru the draft. It wasn’t 3 stars deciding to team up & having elite role players & former great players, who were winding down, but still very effective, lining up to take pay cuts to join the team.
You would’ve NEVER seen Bird, Magic or Jordan types create or jump to other loaded teams that they couldn’t beat, just to win a ring. They had too big of an ego & drive to win to EVER admit that they weren’t good enough to get it done & they used losses as motivation fuel to get revenge. Those guys went at each other hard & made it their life’s goal to beat the other. Today’s era is quite soft in comparison.
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Kobe didn't wait
Kobe was the first player to threaten leaving if the Lakers didn't bring in stars. They did and he stayed. Nobody ever mentions him chasing the stacked team though.
Which team was loaded that lebron played on?
One other really good player everywhere he's been. Bosh was avg , Love was less than avg, who was the third in LA
Bosh was not average when he went to Miami. He had averaged 22/10/3 his last 5 years in Toronto & averaged 24/11 in his last year there. That’s a hell of a 3rd wheel. Love wasn’t less than average either when Cleveland acquired him. He had averaged 21/13/3 in his last 5 seasons in MIN & averaged 26/13/4 the year before he went to Cleveland. Not too bad for a 3rd option, either.
Both guys could score from all over the floor & were entering their primes & were considered elite at the time they were acquired by LBJ. I’ll concede the Kobe point, but, who was their 3rd stud? It was all Kobe & Shaq thru 2005. Then, they got Gasol in 08, but, there was no 3rd stud on those teams. Very good role players, yes. But, only two elite players. Lamar Odom wasn’t elite.
Most of the Bulls players didn't do much before or after playing with Jordan. He made guys better. Rodman and Pippen are the exceptions, but even they were clearly better playing with Jordan.
Everyone forgets how big of an asshat Jordan was. He was one of the biggest jerks to ever play in the NBA.
That’s how I took what Pippen was saying. That Jordan wasn’t good at being a good teammate until the Bulls surrounded him with better talent - IE Grant and Pippen - and a better coach - Phil Jackson.
That happened in the 88-90 era.
Bosh went to Miami in his prime. And as another user pointed out Love went to a Cleveland in his prime. Both were one of the best in the league at their positions before playing with LBJ.
Before has nothing to do with it
While they played with him they definitely weren't. Bosh was avg at best. Look at their stats on those teams.
Lamar Odom was every bit as good as Bosh and love was at that time
Bosh was good at Toronto, he wasn't that same player in Miami.
Bosh last full season of 70+ games he avg 16 and 7. That's nothing special. That was in the prime of Miami .
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After Lebron left, Bosh went back to 21 & 7 in 14/15 and then 19 & 7 in 15/16 before the blood clot. If he plays 10 more games in 14/15, he would have been in the top 12 in scoring in the league in 14/15 after LBJ left. 3 more games in 15/16 and he’s in the top 25 still. That’s against the whole league, much less his position. That’s hardly washed man.
He played 40 and 50 games. Bosh was a decent player he just wasn't a damn superstar like some act. That's all I'm saying.
For example.... Do you think Herro or Maxey this season should be considered great enough to make their teams a "super team"? Both players are really good and probably better than what Bosh was at Miami. They both avg over 20 this year for a whole season n Bosh avg 16 his last full season playing with lebron n Wade
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This is a topic like politics, you aren't changing anyone's mind lol. I love Jordan but that was a different time in the game and it's pointless to speculate who would have done what..
Strictly basketball speaking, and leaving will out, I'm not sure there's anything Jordan could do that Lebron couldn't. However I do believe Lebron could do some things Jordan couldn't. Jordans intangibles is what puts him at the top
That's far from a typical NBA roster.
I don't know of anyone that's won a title without another really good player beside them. Toronto would be the closest but they had 2 aswell
