POLL: Is there a God ??

[megablue]

Here's an interesting thing to think about, albeit off topic a bit: As everyone knows, the human species had been around for hundreds of thousands of years before Jesus Christ arrived 2,000 years ago to provide salvation for believers by dying on the cross for the sins of mankind. What if Jesus had been born in the year 2000 ?? Where would he be born ?? Would he be Jewish ?? What race would he be ?? Would he be born of a virgin ?? How would the world learn his message, would he work miracles for everyone to see and document, what would be the uptake in belief, would Christianity easily become the world's only religion, what would his message be to folks about how to live together, would he promote peace on earth and it be achieved, would he utilize modern technology to reach the masses, what we would he say about climate change, would he answer many of the deepest questions about the universe, would he address LTBGQ and transgender issues, what would he say about abortion, would he address the issue of being woke, would he talk about the place of women in society, would he talk about the evils of slavery, what would he say about globalism and immigration, would he address poverty and economic issues, how would he help eliminate racism, what sports would he like and would he attend games, what music would he like and would he go to concerts, would he prefer beer over wine, what would be his favorite bourbon, would he be a guest on 60 Minutes, would he tweet messages, would he explain why he took so long in coming, would he appear on SNL as a guest host, would he address many other issues that I cannot think of right now, would he provide cures for cancer and other deadly diseases, would he still have to die to provide salvation, would he rise from the dead and would it be on the TV and social media, would he announce his ascension and would it be televised and witnessed, etc ... ??

Definitely interesting to think about ... kinda like those WWJD bracelets that folks wear ... a good reminder, I think.
The world would hear his message first-hand, he could answer many questions and provide clear guidance.

 

[Larry Skaggs]

 

[Caveman Catfan]

 

[megablue]

OT: Here is an engaging debate on the resurrection, featuring a theologian and a historian, that I found interesting and thought-provoking. Is there proof of the resurrection ??
It was moderated very well and nicely-presented in a face-to-face table setting.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

OT: Here is an engaging debate on the resurrection, featuring a theologian and a historian, that I found interesting and thought-provoking. Is there proof of the resurrection ??
It was moderated very well and nicely-presented in a face-to-face table setting.

View embedded media

People misuse the words “proof” and “evidence” all of the time. The accounts in the Gospels are proof. The question is whether you find them reliable. Hearsay, for example, is proof that has been deemed unreliable in most situations. Nevertheless, it is evidence. A historical newspaper article is evidence. Was it biased or accurate? Good questions, but those questions don’t change the fact that it’s evidence.

 

[megablue]

People misuse the words “proof” and “evidence” all of the time. The accounts in the Gospels are proof. The question is whether you find them reliable. Hearsay, for example, is proof that has been deemed unreliable in most situations. Nevertheless, it is evidence. A historical newspaper article is evidence. Was it biased or accurate? Good questions, but those questions don’t change the fact that it’s evidence.

I understand your point, of course, but the debate/discussion deals heavily with the notion of how historians view the reliability of eyewitness accounts as undeniable (or convincing) proof of an event. I found the deep dive interesting and educational, as it addresses the accounts of supernatural apparitions and events (with many eyewitness accounts) in other religions, like Mary at Fatima/Lourdes, Moroni to Joseph Smith, Muhammad ascending to the heavens on a winged horse, etc ...
I thoroughly enjoyed the debate and it was a deep dive into the realms of "proof" and "evidence" ... that you mention.
Thanks for the reply ...

 

[mcnicKY91]

It is simple for me...there is no way all 12 disciples are going lie about seeing the risen Christ, only for the vast majority to be put to death as a result. Not one recanted, not one. If this was a lie, surely one would have cracked as they were approaching death to save themselves. No way all 12 could keep a lie going, in unison, for the many years they did, while eventually spread out across Asia/Africa.

Secondarily, what did any of the 12 disciples get out of perpetuating this lie? Fame? Fortune? Power? Women? None of that, only ridicule, imprisonment, beatings, torture, and eventually death.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is no way 12 people are perpetuating a lie of something they claimed to have seen, ultimately leading to a life of torture and death, without one person (that's all I am asking for, just one) recanting to save themselves.

 

[megablue]

It is simple for me...there is no way all 12 disciples are going lie about seeing the risen Christ, only for the vast majority to be put to death as a result. Not one recanted, not one. If this was a lie, surely one would have cracked as they were approaching death to save themselves. No way all 12 could keep a lie going, in unison, for the many years they did, while eventually spread out across Asia/Africa.

Secondarily, what did any of the 12 disciples get out of perpetuating this lie? Fame? Fortune? Power? Women? None of that, only ridicule, imprisonment, beatings, torture, and eventually death.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there is no way 12 people are perpetuating a lie of something they claimed to have seen, ultimately leading to a life of torture and death, without one person (that's all I am asking for, just one) recanting to save themselves.

I certainly understand your point. I may certainly be wrong, but it is my understanding that the only apostle that was mentioned in the Bible as having been martyred was James, the brother of John, who was executed by King Herod Agrippa. Most information about the deaths of other apostles comes from later church traditions, which may contain legendary elements and are not considered historically reliable by scholars. There is much debate about that, between theologians and historians, as you would suspect.

What is more amazing to me is how many Christians were persecuted and martyred throughout all of history. They never saw Jesus Christ and only learned about him through oral tradition, scripture and preaching, yet they would not reject their faith. Similarly, throughout history and to this very day, believers of other faiths are murdered for their beliefs. Also, perhaps one of the biggest examples of modern day faith is suicide bombers. Such unwavering faith and religious fervor of believers has always been an amazing thing to behold.

Thanks for your interest and post ...

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I certainly understand your point. I may certainly be wrong, but it is my understanding that the only apostle that was mentioned in the Bible as having been martyred was James, the brother of John, who was executed by King Herod Agrippa. Most information about the deaths of other apostles comes from later church traditions, which may contain legendary elements and are not considered historically reliable by scholars. There is much debate about that, between theologians and historians, as you would suspect.

What is more amazing to me is how many Christians were persecuted and martyred throughout all of history. They never saw Jesus Christ and only learned about him through oral tradition, scripture and preaching, yet they would not reject their faith. Similarly, throughout history and to this very day, believers of other faiths are murdered for their beliefs. Also, perhaps one of the biggest examples of modern day faith is suicide bombers. Such unwavering faith and religious fervor of believers has always been an amazing thing to behold.

Thanks for your interest and post ...

Well, I don’t know how much debate there is about the first and second century church reporting the deaths of the apostles, but we know that John confirmed Peter’s crucifixion in the gospel.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

“For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭12‬-‭13‬ ‭ESV

 

[Caveman Catfan]

“There is no problem in human life that apprenticeship to Jesus cannot solve.” - Dallas Willard

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

 

[megablue]

View embedded media

Carlin was always a clever, cutting-edge comedian who never ran from the tough issues like politics, socio-economic, race and religion.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

One of Paul’s awesome prayers in Ephesians prays all will

1. Be empowered by the Holy Spirit

2. Put all their trust in Christ

3. Experience the great depths of God’s love for them

4. Live lives that glorified God

 

[Caveman Catfan]

One of Paul’s awesome prayers in Ephesians prays all will

1. Be empowered by the Holy Spirit

2. Put all their trust in Christ

3. Experience the great depths of God’s love for them

4. Live lives that glorified God

Theologian Tom Wright suggests that “love and power” are not only the themes of this prayer, but also “the themes of perhaps two thirds of all the novels, plays and poems ever written. The love of power”, he writes, “has laid waste continents and empires. The power of love has driven weak people to do powerful things… These are the forces which shape our lives, our homes, our countries, our politics, our world.”

 

[Caveman Catfan]

“A voice says, “Cry!” And I said, “What shall I cry?” All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the Lord blows on it; surely the people are grass. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40‬:‭6‬-‭8‬ ‭ESV

 

[bbncal02]

“A voice says, “Cry!” And I said, “What shall I cry?” All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field. The grass withers, the flower fades when the breath of the Lord blows on it; surely the people are grass. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40‬:‭6‬-‭8‬ ‭ESV

The Bible can be confusing at times and the debate always goes on about whether parts sht vould be read literally or metaphorically as allegory.

Nonetheless that verse and this one are a couple of my favorites:

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. - John 11:25-26; KJV

I get misty eyed reading it every time. No matter how hard life is (and it is) and how cruel it can be (and it is), Jesus promises that if you believe in Him, you will never truly die.

Isiah is one of my favorite books as is John. The metaphorical language reads like poetry and it is just so moving.

Daniel Bedingfield performed a song called "Honest Questions" and it draws from Isiah. It's beautiful song and it touches on faith, doubt, and the ability to talk to God openly, and honestly, as it He knows us fully.

Can you see
The honest questions in my heart this hour
I am opening like a flower
To the rain
And do you know the silent sorrows of a
Never ending journey through the pain

Do you see a brighter day for me
Another day
A day
Do you wonder whats in store for me
The cure for me
The way
Oh look down and see the tears I've cried
The lives I've lived
The deaths I've died
And you died them too
And all for me

(You say)
I will pour the water down upon a thirsty barron land
And streams will flow
From the dust of your bruised and broken soul
And you will grow like the grass
Upon the fertile plains of Asia by the streams
Of living water you will grow
Oh.. you will grow

Do you know
The story from the start
And do you know me
Like you've always told me
Do you see the whispers in my heart against your kindness
My eternal blindness
Do you see...

Do you see a brighter day for me
Another day
A day
Do you wonder whats in store for me
The cure for me
The way
Oh look down and see the tears I've cried
The lives I've lived
The deaths I've died
And you died them too
And all for me

(You say)
I will pour the water down upon a thirsty barren land
And streams will flow
From the dust of your bruised and broken soul
And you will grow like the grass
Upon the fertile plains of Asia by the streams
Of living water you will grow
Oh.. I will pour the water down upon the thirsty barren land
And streams will flow
From the dust of your bruised and broken soul
And you will grow like the grass
Upon the fertile plains of Asia by the streams
Of living water you will grow
Oh.. you will grow

When I feel really down or a bit lost, I put this on, and I pray. It's ok to have questions. Especially in hard times.


There's a link if anyone is interested. He's not like a well known artist, but he has passion and puts energy in his music.

 

[megablue]

The Bible can be confusing at times and the debate always goes on about whether parts sht vould be read literally or metaphorically as allegory.

Nonetheless that verse and this one are a couple of my favorites:



I get misty eyed reading it every time. No matter how hard life is (and it is) and how cruel it can be (and it is), Jesus promises that if you believe in Him, you will never truly die.

Isiah is one of my favorite books as is John. The metaphorical language reads like poetry and it is just so moving.

Daniel Bedingfield performed a song called "Honest Questions" and it draws from Isiah. It's beautiful song and it touches on faith, doubt, and the ability to talk to God openly, and honestly, as it He knows us fully.



When I feel really down or a bit lost, I put this on, and I pray. It's ok to have questions. Especially in hard times.

View embedded media

There's a link if anyone is interested. He's not like a well known artist, but he has passion and puts energy in his music.

Regarding doubt, it is honest that Bedingfield addresses doubt. Reaching the age of reason spawns it.
That is only natural, it has always seemed to me. Bedingfield is honest.
How does a person know whether the God they believe is the true one ??

Disbelieve it or not, ancient history suggests that atheism is as natural to humans as religion

People in the ancient world did not always believe in the gods, a new study suggests – casting doubt on the idea that religious belief is a 'default setting'

www.cam.ac.uk

Big Gods Came After the Rise of Civilizations, Not Before, Study Finds - UConn Today

The original function of moralizing gods in world history was to hold together fragile, ethnically diverse coalitions, write researchers at UConn, Universit ...

today.uconn.edu

Gods Appeared Only After the Brain Had Sufficiently Evolved

By the time Hominins started writing, around 6,500 years ago, gods were already quite numerous.

www.psychologytoday.com

Why Do Humans Keep Inventing Gods to Worship?

Spirituality may have evolved from a brain circuit that was originally used in the control of fear, pain, and altruism.

www.psychologytoday.com

Lists of deities - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SDC888]

James 1:5-8
New King James Version

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

 

[megablue]

There are many opinions and philosophies regarding doubt ... to say the least.
If a person has doubt ... where does it come from ?? Likewise, where does faith come from ??

https://www.brainyquote.com/topics/doubt-quotes

https://www.brainyquote.com/topics/faith-quotes

I'm not sure there can ever be true knowledge without the removal of doubt, as doubt must be first considered and eliminated.
We all want to KNOW !! As Emil Faber once said ... "KNOWLEDGE IS GOOD"

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

The answer is still no. None of them are real.

 

[megablue]

If modernization is not the biggest reason that religion is declining (if not collapsing) in modern societies … it’s certainly one of the reasons. The freedom to choose to be religious, or not, is also a big factor.

 

[bbncal02]

Regarding doubt, it is honest that Bedingfield addresses doubt. Reaching the age of reason spawns it.
That is only natural, it has always seemed to me. Bedingfield is honest.
How does a person know whether the God they believe is the true one ??

Disbelieve it or not, ancient history suggests that atheism is as natural to humans as religion

People in the ancient world did not always believe in the gods, a new study suggests – casting doubt on the idea that religious belief is a 'default setting'

www.cam.ac.uk

Big Gods Came After the Rise of Civilizations, Not Before, Study Finds - UConn Today

The original function of moralizing gods in world history was to hold together fragile, ethnically diverse coalitions, write researchers at UConn, Universit ...

today.uconn.edu

Gods Appeared Only After the Brain Had Sufficiently Evolved

By the time Hominins started writing, around 6,500 years ago, gods were already quite numerous.

www.psychologytoday.com

Why Do Humans Keep Inventing Gods to Worship?

Spirituality may have evolved from a brain circuit that was originally used in the control of fear, pain, and altruism.

www.psychologytoday.com

Lists of deities - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Simply put, we don't. That's why it's called faith.

 

[megablue]

If doubt is not the biggest reason that religion is declining, if not collapsing, in modern societies … it’s certainly one of the reasons.

Simply put, we don't. That's why it's called faith.

Yes, of course, but knowledge is derived through evidence, whereas faith is belief without evidence. Why do some people have faith, but others require evidence ??

 

[bbncal02]

r

If doubt is not the biggest reason that religion is declining, if not collapsing, in modern societies … it’s certainly one of the reasons.

View embedded media

Yes, of course, but knowledge is derived through evidence, whereas faith is belief without evidence. Why do some people have faith, but others require evidence ??

because some people need empirical proof before they are convinced of anything. Some of that may lie in insecurities lest they look foolish.

 

[megablue]

r

because some people need empirical proof before they are convinced of anything. Some of that may lie in insecurities lest they look foolish.

… but why do some need empirical proof and others don’t ??
If, as you suggest, insecurities come into play … why for some, but not others ??
Why do some folks "believe in believing" and others require evidence ??

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If doubt is not the biggest reason that religion is declining, if not collapsing, in modern societies … it’s certainly one of the reasons.

View embedded media

Yes, of course, but knowledge is derived through evidence, whereas faith is belief without evidence. Why do some people have faith, but others require evidence ??

Okay, we can dance this lie again. Repeatedly the same fiction, but if you want to deceive yourself that there is no evidence, your faith in that belief is your choice.

For the rest of us, faith does not mean there is no evidence. It means that there is a need for something more than evidence to take the final step of belief. For example, the atheists here make comments, like Ohio did above, that there is no god. He cannot prove that definitive belief. Rather, he would claim that because God cannot be seen and cannot be definitively demonstrated (his evidence), he can make that final unproven step to his faith.

The same is true of believers’ faith. There are incredible signs that we and the universe were designed and not, as atheists faithfully contend, the result of randomness and surprise (yeah, use other words, it’s all the same). The believer in God must then take the unproven step in faith to conclude their belief in God.

Many have seen the “evidence” and decided the leap of faith to God is shorter than the leap of faith to atheism.

 

[megablue]

Okay, we can dance this lie again. Repeatedly the same fiction, but if you want to deceive yourself that there is no evidence, your faith in that belief is your choice.

For the rest of us, faith does not mean there is no evidence. It means that there is a need for something more than evidence to take the final step of belief. For example, the atheists here make comments, like Ohio did above, that there is no god. He cannot prove that definitive belief. Rather, he would claim that because God cannot be seen and cannot be definitively demonstrated (his evidence), he can make that final unproven step to his faith.

The same is true of believers’ faith. There are incredible signs that we and the universe were designed and not, as atheists faithfully contend, the result of randomness and surprise (yeah, use other words, it’s all the same). The believer in God must then take the unproven step in faith to conclude their belief in God.

Many have seen the “evidence” and decided the leap of faith to God is shorter than the leap of faith to atheism.

WHY do some people believe there is “evidence” and others don’t ?? WHY do some non-believers become believers, while some believers become non-believers ??

 

[Caveman Catfan]

WHY do some people believe there is “evidence” and others don’t ?? WHY do some non-believers become believers, while some believers become non-believers ??

Because people don’t know what “evidence” means? You tell me, because that is the only explanation I can come up with. People who have never had to prove anything in their lives don’t evidently understand evidence.

There is a long public history, and even longer private history, of scientists who tell us they came to faith solely by their understanding and study of science. That testimony and your claim cannot both be true.

And, if there is a more believable voice, between them and you, it is their voice, the ones who actually put in the work to learn the structure and makeup of the environment around them.

 

[megablue]

Because people don’t know what “evidence” means? You tell me, because that is the only explanation I can come up with. People who have never had to prove anything in their lives don’t evidently understand evidence.

There is a long public history, and even longer private history, of scientists who tell us they came to faith solely by their understanding and study of science. That testimony and your claim cannot both be true.

And, if there is a more believable voice, between them and you, it is their voice, the ones who actually put in the work to learn the structure and makeup of the environment around them.

My thinking in asking WHY is that it seems to me that people do not know WHY they think the way they do.
For me it gets back to free will and the freedom to choose. I think free will is only an illusion and we do not know why we think and act like we do. A group of people looking at the same "evidence" reach different conclusions and, in my view, do not know why ... although they think they do.

Thanks for the exchange ... interesting, as always, as are many in this thread.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

In a courtroom, evidence is presented by both parties to the litigation. Evidence that they believe, and often upon an objective understanding, supports their position. The fact finder judges the weight of the evidence. It’s NOT that there was no evidence, but they must weigh it all and come to a determination. Some court proceedings hold a standard of preponderance of the evidence. Some, beyond a reasonable doubt. Some, by clear and convincing evidence.

Thoughtful people in life do the same thing. First, they attain and weigh the evidence. Then, they decide what standard of proof they require for a determination. Some people clearly require a beyond a reasonable doubt evidence for the existence of God. The same people often hold lower standards for other beliefs they hold dear. And, vice versa.

For example. Some people require a lower standard for the question of whether climate change is caused by human behavior than they require for the existence of God. Our presuppositions, fears, and our desired outcomes certainly play a role as to what level of evidence we require for our faithful beliefs.

That would be one explanation.

 

[mcnicKY91]

WHY do some people believe there is “evidence” and others don’t ?? WHY do some non-believers become believers, while some believers become non-believers ??

The better question to ask is why the majority of atheists in this thread have said even if they saw enough evidence that the God of the Bible exists, they still would refuse to have a relationship with Jesus Christ...they would rather pick an eternity in hell separated from their Lord and Savior then to live eternally with the one true God.

It's a matter of the heart, and will always be that way. People have no desire to submit their lives to Christ, and would much rather live for themselves. It will always be that way until Christ returns.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

The better question to ask is why the majority of atheists in this thread have said even if they saw enough evidence that the God of the Bible exists, they still would refuse to have a relationship with Jesus Christ...they would rather pick an eternity in hell separated from their Lord and Savior then to live eternally with the one true God.

It's a matter of the heart, and will always be that way. People have no desire to submit their lives to Christ, and would much rather live for themselves. It will always be that way until Christ returns.

For me, if it is ever proven 100% that the god that’s described in the buybull is/was real, I wouldn’t want a relationship with it because of it’s nature. Brutal, jealous, murderous, vindictive, pro-slavery, genocidal monster. I don’t want anything to do with an entity like that. I damn sure wouldn’t worship it.

 

[megablue]

For me, if it is ever proven 100% that the god that’s described in the buybull is/was real, I wouldn’t want a relationship with it because of it’s nature. Brutal, jealous, murderous, vindictive, pro-slavery, genocidal monster. I don’t want anything to do with an entity like that. I damn sure wouldn’t worship it.

I understand and appreciate your sentiment, relative to the bible. The God of the Old and the New Testament does not strike me as the same being with the same temperament, albeit paradoxical.
One is to be feared, the other loved, but both worshipped.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I understand and appreciate your sentiment, relative to the bible. The God of the Old and the New Testament does not strike me as the same being with the same temperament, albeit paradoxical.
One is to be feared, the other loved, but both worshipped.

And that last sentence leaves me scratching my head. Because I keep hearing how xians have a “personal relationship” with their god.

If either of my daughters were in a relationship where they feared their partner, and at the same time had to love and worship him, I’d do everything I could to get them out of that relationship. I’d be willing to wager that everyone reading this would do the same. So why is it OK to have a relationship with the invisible man in the sky, and both fear and worship him? I’ll never understand it.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I pray mid kids will be devoted to God. He has changed my life and given me incredible opportunities to see him do the same for others.

“The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭23‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭ESV