My God is the God of all the Abrahamic religions and my religious views align more with Thomas Jefferson’s.
Thats all I care to say on that subject.
POLL: Is there a God ??
- Thread starter megablue
- Start date
My God is the God of all the Abrahamic religions and my religious views align more with Thomas Jefferson’s.
Thats all I care to say on that subject.
My point is that each and every faith, including the "Abrahamic" religions, inherently contradict each other. Each and every one. Only one can be right.
So when you originally said that you don't proclaim your God is the truth or only one, that implies, to me at least, that you think there can be multiple ways or "truths," which inherently is impossible. I could just be misreading though...
Reprinted without permission:
Maybe you've heard of Erwin McManus. He's a best selling Christian author. He's also the lead pastor of Mosaic Church in Southern California. Years ago when he and his wife Kim moved to Southern California, she kept telling him how she just really wanted to be on the game show The Price is Right. And he's like, "Okay." But then she got actually secured an invitation to go on the show. And so now he wants to support her, so he goes along with her.
Now, maybe you know this, that on that game show, you sit in the audience. It doesn't mean you're a contestant just because you got an invitation. You sit in the audience, and then if your name gets drawn and called, now you get to run down like a crazy person like they do. And guess what? Kim's name got called. So she runs down to the front and leaves Erwin sitting there with a blank seat next to him. But then on the other side of that seat, a young woman. Now, all of this happened about 10 to 15 years ago. And I say that because I'm going to tell you that this person, this woman, was from Russia. And I don't want that to be distraction for you. But she was from Russia, had a really strong accent as Erwin began to develop this conversation with her.
And she asked, or he asks her all of those questions that you ask when you meet someone. Where are you from? And she tells him that she was born and raised in Russia. And then just a handful of years ago, she had ended up moving to New York City. She had the opportunity to do so, and so she did. And then, more circumstances ensued, and she ended up being on the opposite coast. She ended up moving to Southern California, and here she is. And then she begins to turn it around and ask Erwin the same questions. Where are you from, and so on. And Erwin tells her, "I'm from El Salvador, Central America. And at some point my family and I, when I was a kid, we ended up on a boat to Florida. We lived there for a while. I ended up going to college as a young man, and through a campus life program, I got to find out about this person, Jesus, and everything changed for me."
And he begins to light up as he tells her about this Jesus who loves him, and how so many things happened in his college career that were unexplainable, except that God was in them, and in pursuit of him, that not only did he become a follower of Jesus, he became a pastor. And she kind of got this look on her face, and kind of turned a little bit in her seat and said, "Yeah, you know, I don't know if I buy all this truth about Jesus stuff. And anyway, if this God is who you're describing him to be, and if you're saying he loves me, then I would think he would be in pursuit of me. I'd think he'd be going out of his way to make sure that I could hear the truth about who he is."
And Erwin responds like this. "Let's think about this for just a minute. You were born and raised in Russia, and ended up, through various circumstances, moving to New York City, and then more circumstances brought you to Southern California. I was born in El Salvador, ended up on a boat with my family to Florida, ended up in college, meeting Jesus, and he transformed my life. I became a pastor. And now we're sitting next to each other on a game show with some time to kill, and you don't think that Jesus is in pursuit of you. I think he is unavoidably showing his great love for you right now."
Maybe you've heard of Erwin McManus. He's a best selling Christian author. He's also the lead pastor of Mosaic Church in Southern California. Years ago when he and his wife Kim moved to Southern California, she kept telling him how she just really wanted to be on the game show The Price is Right. And he's like, "Okay." But then she got actually secured an invitation to go on the show. And so now he wants to support her, so he goes along with her.
Now, maybe you know this, that on that game show, you sit in the audience. It doesn't mean you're a contestant just because you got an invitation. You sit in the audience, and then if your name gets drawn and called, now you get to run down like a crazy person like they do. And guess what? Kim's name got called. So she runs down to the front and leaves Erwin sitting there with a blank seat next to him. But then on the other side of that seat, a young woman. Now, all of this happened about 10 to 15 years ago. And I say that because I'm going to tell you that this person, this woman, was from Russia. And I don't want that to be distraction for you. But she was from Russia, had a really strong accent as Erwin began to develop this conversation with her.
And she asked, or he asks her all of those questions that you ask when you meet someone. Where are you from? And she tells him that she was born and raised in Russia. And then just a handful of years ago, she had ended up moving to New York City. She had the opportunity to do so, and so she did. And then, more circumstances ensued, and she ended up being on the opposite coast. She ended up moving to Southern California, and here she is. And then she begins to turn it around and ask Erwin the same questions. Where are you from, and so on. And Erwin tells her, "I'm from El Salvador, Central America. And at some point my family and I, when I was a kid, we ended up on a boat to Florida. We lived there for a while. I ended up going to college as a young man, and through a campus life program, I got to find out about this person, Jesus, and everything changed for me."
And he begins to light up as he tells her about this Jesus who loves him, and how so many things happened in his college career that were unexplainable, except that God was in them, and in pursuit of him, that not only did he become a follower of Jesus, he became a pastor. And she kind of got this look on her face, and kind of turned a little bit in her seat and said, "Yeah, you know, I don't know if I buy all this truth about Jesus stuff. And anyway, if this God is who you're describing him to be, and if you're saying he loves me, then I would think he would be in pursuit of me. I'd think he'd be going out of his way to make sure that I could hear the truth about who he is."
And Erwin responds like this. "Let's think about this for just a minute. You were born and raised in Russia, and ended up, through various circumstances, moving to New York City, and then more circumstances brought you to Southern California. I was born in El Salvador, ended up on a boat with my family to Florida, ended up in college, meeting Jesus, and he transformed my life. I became a pastor. And now we're sitting next to each other on a game show with some time to kill, and you don't think that Jesus is in pursuit of you. I think he is unavoidably showing his great love for you right now."
Great story...I love hearing the stories about how people came to a believing faith in Jesus' work on the cross.
They are all so unique, and each one is different in its own right. From childhood to teenage years, or from college to early adult life, or from mid-life to retirement years, or right at the end of their life. So many different ways people have accepted Jesus as their Savior.
Awesome hearing how God is working in people's lives all across the globe.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
My point is that each and every faith, including the "Abrahamic" religions, inherently contradict each other. Each and every one. Only one can be right.
So when you originally said that you don't proclaim your God is the truth or only one, that implies, to me at least, that you think there can be multiple ways or "truths," which inherently is impossible. I could just be misreading though...
Or none can be right.
So when you originally said that you don't proclaim your God is the truth or only one, that implies, to me at least, that you think there can be multiple ways or "truths," which inherently is impossible. I could just be misreading though...
Or none can be right.
“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 ESV
1 Corinthians 1:18-25 ESV
“But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.”
2 Peter 3:8-10 ESV
2 Peter 3:8-10 ESV
2 Peter 3:9-10 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will co | English Standard Version 2016 (E
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will co
bible.com
“And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’”
Acts 26:14-18 ESV
Acts 26:14-18 ESV
Acts 26:14-18 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ And I said, ‘Who | English Standard Version 2016 (ES
And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ And I said, ‘Who
bible.com
CC ... I know this is slightly off-main topic, but do you believe in the existence of Satan and other angels ??
Thanks, in advance.
At one point in my belief, after giving up agnosticism and atheism, I would have questioned those descriptors, as I was learning and attempting to simply be a Bible-believing follower of Jesus. But, in today’s categorizations, those are probably appropriate for me. Born again/from above as in the way Jesus uses the term with Nicodemus. Evangelical? I worship God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and have done so in different church communities, some that would not self-describe as evangelical, some that would. But, as stated, those terms, in the general sense, are fair.
Thanks for the reply. Regards angels, do they act autonomously and at their own will and direction, or is everything they do directly instructed by God ?? In other words, do angels decide on who and how much they help or intervene on behalf of ?? Also, are they responsive to petition by prayer and must decide whether to intervene ?? Do you pray to or petition angels, in addition to God ?? Assuming angels do intervene, help and support folks, it seems reasonable and logical to question why they appear to be selective in their assistance.
Just curious ... as I never really consider Satan or angels much at all, but your scripture post prompted me to think and ask.
Last edited:
Ya didn’t mean it as an insult it’s just what I would consider where you land based on your posts
Did not take it as an insult. Just don’t think in those terms and was processing in a post.
Having been raised in and practiced in the Catholic tradition, my biblical exposure was pretty much limited to readings that are part of the liturgy of the mass, typically the epistle and gospel readings. So, as I am sure you already know, my scriptural experiences were nowhere near what Protestants and Jews typically study.
In catechism, which was part and parcel of K-12 parochial education, we learned about heaven, hell, angels, etc … but not typically through scriptural context and reference, but more so through catechism texts and church teachings. Our school catechism instruction also included many impromptu Q&A episodes that increased in depth as we moved along in age, of course.
Topics became “heavier” … if you will, as I progressed through the high school years, combined with significant changes that took place in the Roman Catholic Church.
Last edited:
My understanding of angels, beyond what culture has attempted to insert, is based on the Bible. The Bible seems to indicate that angel ambassadors for God are doing God’s will and rejoice in glorifying God. I have seen no reason to pray to an Angel, nor do I think Angels desire that. The most common words from Angels appear to be “fear not.” Now, cherubim and seraphim seem to serve God in other ways and would never be confused with people or creatures of the physical world.
I will add that there appears to have been a rebellion amongst some angels described in the Bible as they seemed to want to take things into their own hands. So, the Bible clearly does not describe angels as automatons.
“For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.”
Psalm 139:13-16 ESV
Psalm 139:13-16 ESV
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Regarding evolution, this is the most logical reason for the origin of religion. As we began to live together in large numbers, the hierarchy of the tribe was not strong enough to rule over large numbers of people. There was simply too much competition for the top spots.
With an invisible deity “in charge,” the hierarchy was much more manageable because many “priests” could share the power below it and there was no way for any of them to ever ascend to the highest spot, thereby lessening the need for brutal competition to advance along the religious ladder.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Do you think anyone would take him seriously if he had a really thick southern accent?
Go get an empty shoebox....make sure it is completely empty. You can clean it and dry it inside if you want. Tape it up real good, wrap it in plastic, cover it in cement, whatever. Wait a year, and then go look inside that shoebox and see what is inside. Will there be humans, dogs, galaxies, etc? In other words....you can't get something from nothing. I know this requires some serious thought, so my apologies if I exceeded your limit of comprehension.
Yes, Christians and people of other religious faiths, do believe in something/someone bigger than ourselves, that created us and the universe. Many of whom also believe in science, in physics, and time, and even in evolution, but believe that those are all tools God used. But regardless, people of faith in a god, do rely on "Faith", on believing in something they can't see, hear, touch, physically feel, observe using any of our senses. However, I think those who do not believe in a god, also rely on Faith; faith that all of the unexplainable that has been observed can be explained, faith that evolution goes much further than the development of man and all other animals developmental changes over time but all the way pack to a single cell organism to even further to a bunch of mixed gases and elements; faith that before the universe existed that there was nothing and then magically from nothing came something. I'm just saying those who obnoxiously say Christianity (or other religions) are fictional fairytales, need to look at their own beliefs (what's the saying about glass-houses).
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
This is a little off-topic, but I've always found it questionable that there does not appear to be universally-accepted, without any doubt, agreement as to where these exact locations are:
1) Where Jesus was crucified ??
2) Where Jesus was buried ??
3) Where Jesus ascended into heaven ??
I know these events are claimed to have happened 2,000 years ago, which is a very long time, but how come these exact spots are not universally known and without controversy ??
Similarly:
1) Where is the exact spot that Muhammad ascended into heaven on a winged horse ??
2) I never understood why Joseph Smith was the only person who actually saw the golden plates in the early 1800's ??
I could not find much information on this matter, but did find this piece that discusses reasons behind the difficulty in such certainty. Being a religious site, it understandably concludes that knowledge of the exact spots is not necessary to support one's faith.
www.seetheholyland.net
1) Where Jesus was crucified ??
2) Where Jesus was buried ??
3) Where Jesus ascended into heaven ??
I know these events are claimed to have happened 2,000 years ago, which is a very long time, but how come these exact spots are not universally known and without controversy ??
Similarly:
1) Where is the exact spot that Muhammad ascended into heaven on a winged horse ??
2) I never understood why Joseph Smith was the only person who actually saw the golden plates in the early 1800's ??
I could not find much information on this matter, but did find this piece that discusses reasons behind the difficulty in such certainty. Being a religious site, it understandably concludes that knowledge of the exact spots is not necessary to support one's faith.
Are the sites authentic? « See The Holy Land
Last edited:
All four gospels indicate Jesus was crucified at the Place of the Skull, otherwise known as Golgotha. The location was called “The Place of the Skull” due to the shape of the hill that reminded people of a human skull. This would have occurred outside the city walls of Jerusalem. How much more specificity would you require?This is a little off-topic, but I've always found it questionable that there does not appear to be universally-accepted, without any doubt, agreement as to where these exact locations are:
1) Where Jesus was crucified ??
2) Where Jesus was buried ??
3) Where Jesus ascended into heaven ??
I know these events are claimed to have happened 2,000 years ago, which is a very long time, but how come these exact spots are not universally known and without controversy ??
Similarly:
1) Where is the exact spot that Muhammad ascended into heaven on a winged horse ??
2) I never understood why Joseph Smith was the only person who actually saw the golden plates in the early 1800's ??
I could not find much information on this matter, but did find this piece that discusses reasons behind the difficulty in such certainty. Being a religious site, it understandably concludes that knowledge of the exact spots is not necessary to support one's faith.
Are the sites authentic? « See The Holy Land
The place where the body of Jesus was buried was in a garden and in a new sepulchre or tomb which never had a dead person placed in it (John 19:41). It was located outside the then current walls of the city of Jerusalem (verse 20), possibly close to the Damascus Gate. The tomb, owned by a rich man named Joseph of Arimathea, was hewn out of a rock and had a large, round stone door that could seal the entrance (Isaiah 53:4 - 6, 10 - 11, Matthew 27:57 - 60, Luke 23:50 - 53). The interior of the tomb that contained Jesus was big enough for a person or two to sit or stand in (Mark 16:5, John 20:5 - 6, 11 - 12), although it required a person to stoop down in order to enter it. Do you want the Bible to list the specific spot of the tomb? Should this burial be documented/recorded in some sort of Jewish or Roman record of burials?
Both Luke and Acts give historical narrative of Jesus ascending to Heaven from the Mount of Olives. This was done in front of Jesus' disciples. Where else is this to be recorded, if only His disciples were there to see His ascension?
There is never going to be universal acceptance on exact locations of events that happened 2,000 years ago, but that does not take away from the validity of the events.
I agree there are never going to be exact locations that are universally accepted, but that is the point and I'm amazed they do not exist. For example, if you go to visit his burial site, it is my understanding there are various separate sites where he is believed to have been buried and they depend on whether you are Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant or Jewish. I've just always been amazed by this. Yes, as you and the article provided above have stated, believers' faith is not invalidated by this.
Regards Golgotha ... fwiw
Golgotha | Definition, In the Bible, Meaning, Map, & Facts | Britannica
Golgotha, skull-shaped hill in Jerusalem, the site of Jesus’ crucifixion. It is referred to in all four Gospels. The hill of execution was outside the city walls of Jerusalem, apparently near a road and not far from the sepulcher where Jesus was buried.
www.britannica.com
Thanks for the reply.
Last edited:
Alexander the Great was a conqueror and revered. People throughout early history paid homage to his burial site. Yet, today that site is not known.
Jesus died as a criminal on a cross and was buried in a borrowed grave. His followers had no influence until after His resurrection and then it took centuries for His identity to be recognized as a king would have been recognized. The first followers were tortured, imprisoned, and killed. They were not told to make a mausoleum in His honor, but were told to go forth and make followers, baptizing in His name.
It is easy to understand why certain locations are not expressly known.
Jesus died as a criminal on a cross and was buried in a borrowed grave. His followers had no influence until after His resurrection and then it took centuries for His identity to be recognized as a king would have been recognized. The first followers were tortured, imprisoned, and killed. They were not told to make a mausoleum in His honor, but were told to go forth and make followers, baptizing in His name.
It is easy to understand why certain locations are not expressly known.
The humorist Roy Blount Jr joked that nobody could ever be president who pronounced "fingers" as "fangers".
