POLL: Is there a God ??
- Thread starter megablue
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God knows the hearts of all people.
It gets worse. Matthew 19:12 says: (KJV)
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
The teachings of Jesus, and Paul, were so anti sexual activity in nature, that whole generations of clergy were literally castrating themselves. This became such a huge issue that, forbidding this practice became the first item on the agenda at the first council of Nicaea. Talk about going the extra mile!
“For the normative self-understanding of modernity, Christianity has functioned as more than just a precursor or catalyst. Universalistic egalitarianism, from which sprang the ideals of freedom and a collective life in solidarity, the autonomous conduct of life and emancipation, the individual morality of conscience, human rights and democracy, is the direct legacy of the Judaic ethic of justice and the Christian ethic of love. This legacy, substantially unchanged, has been the object of a continual critical reappropriation and reinterpretation. Up to this very day there is no alternative to it. And in light of the current challenges of a post-national constellation, we must draw sustenance now, as in the past, from this substance. Everything else is idle postmodern talk.”
― Jürgen Habermas
He's a well known German modern philosopher.
He's an atheist and far left.
― Jürgen Habermas
He's a well known German modern philosopher.
He's an atheist and far left.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
If this had been your own quote I might have dismissed it as one man's opinion.
But, since it's from a "well known", atheist, far left, German modern philosopher....I will still dismiss it as one man's opinion.
It is one man's opinion. The point is he's not motivated by Christianity or politics, just the truth.
Let Freedom Ring
Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God - let him go to the Bible. . . . I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation. . . . Slavery existed then in the earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testaments - in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized - sanctioned everywhere.
Jefferson Davis
Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God - let him go to the Bible. . . . I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation. . . . Slavery existed then in the earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testaments - in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized - sanctioned everywhere.
Jefferson Davis
In the first place, I'm sure that that the millions of people in the last two thousand years who were suffered violent deaths that we can only imagine today, (being burned alive) were enslaved, tortured, mutilated, in the name of Christ had the thought, "thank God this is happening to me in the name of perpetuation the Judaic ideal of justice and the Christian ideal of love.
Perhaps, Herr Habermas is discussing the general history of Western Civilization, I don't really know. I am. not familiar with his works. I am familiar, however, with the writings of Thomas Paine who wrote this: "Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter."
Nothing against Herr Habermas, but I prefer the vision of Thomas Jefferson who in a letter to John Adams stated: "The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. and the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
I could go on for pages,, but the point is that if modern, western civilization is founded on the ethic of Judaic Justice and Christian love, our founding fathers never got the memo.
Jefferson also believed science confirmed the inferiority of black people and, yet, apparently fell in love with a slave who may have been his deceased wife’s half-sister. He espoused a way of governing that did not emulate his time as President. In short, Jefferson was an incredible person who was often inconsistent and wrong.
I’m not going to force my beliefs on anyone, but Personally speaking, God has carried and sustained me through a lot, and I realize it’s Him behind the design. Laugh at it all you want, but that’s my personal take.
The founding fathers were Christian. The minority who weren't, like the two you quote, were Deists who believed God was real and could be understood through reason, a natural law that exists independently, i.e. outside of "belief," that nevertheless governed the providence of men.
That in and of itself is a Christian belief.
They were infinitely more in tune with our way of thinking than yours, which is that our society is simply evolving through a subjective reality, that we're just making it up as we go and "free" to make of it as we wish. We are not, not without consequence.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
John Adams
The atheist philosopher I quoted has everything you do as far as motivation and reason, indeed the exact same impetus, to conclude as you do, and he posses things you don't, such as greater intelligence/wisdom which he focused the majority of his 90 years of life (it's literally his job to think these topics through), yet doesn't. Why? Because the evidence is overwhelming, especially since the over two hundred years that have elapsed since the founding fathers wrote what they wrote, that you cannot denude the Judeo-Christian ethic from Western Civilization and expect it to maintain the qualities we value and have come to take for granted. John Adams was right.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Kentucky’s Ark Encounter goes into full woke mode for pride month.
Let the boycott begin!
I posted above the quote from Jefferson Davis-- that is a practical example of Christian influence in justifying slavery. I'm not arguing whether Christian influence has been good or bad on the whole -- that is a bigger topic--but no matter how one interprets the Bible, certainly the Bible was interpreted by many at that time to justify slavery.
Yes, no outright condemnation of slavery in the Bible, so it was assumed to be okay and acceptable ... it seems to me.
Based on the quote from Jefferson Davis, he apparently believed that the Bible condoned slavery, much less condemned it. As the leader of the South, I'm sure many others believed that as well at that time.
If you are going to condemn Christianity for some of its so-called adherents, then you have to praise Chrstiianity for the ones who stood against it. Abolition is a practical example of the strength of Christian influence and a triumph for Christ.
I love the religion of Christianity - which cometh from above - which is a pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of good fruits, and without hypocrisy.
I love the pure, peaceable, and impartial Christianity of Christ; I therefore hatethe corrupt, slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial, and hypocritical Christianity of this land. Indeed, I can see no reason, but the most deceitful one, for calling the religion of this land Christianity. I look upon it as the climax of all misnomers, the boldest of all frauds, and the grossest of all libels.
Frederick Douglass
Is there anyone here posting or following this thread that thinks slavery is okay and should be allowed ?? If not, why did they feel differently before the Civil War and for thousands of years before that ?? I ask without regard to the Bible, God and religious belief ... I'm asking outside the context of this thread ... you know, in general.
What has changed and why ??
What has changed and why ??
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Yeah that's good, but the issue is Christianity wasn't needed to stand against slavery. Lincoln by most accounts was not a Christian, and yet stood for what he believed was right.
The leader of the Confederacy though condoned slavery and justified it with the Bible. Christianity then was a very important component of justifying slavery in this country.
That these two men have such vastly different interpretations of the Bible is interesting -- Jefferson Davis probably did not believe he was wrong. Did our collective understanding and interpretation of the Bible change after a couple thousand years? Is there a unified, clear interpretation of the Bible, or is one supposed to interpret on their own (or with the help of preachers/churchgoers, etc.)
It doesn't work like that, but I will give you fair warning....don't test him as you did. You may want to read up on this.
Slave owners gave Bibles to slaves that had slavery passages removed, because they knew the Bible supported freedom. They would not have to create a slave Bible if they thought their interpretation supported their acts.
Of course, Christians moved for the abolition of slavery and their faith and the Bible drove that initiative. It’s incredible how atheists love to point to the failures and evil of people rebelling against God, while claiming his name, but they don’t want to talk about the mass atrocities of atheists or the incredible good performed by Christians.
People do bad and evil. There are frauds and bad Christians. That does not mean anything about God or His word.
Wrong, from the guy who said he did not read the Bible, but only went through the motions of Catholicism.
Or God could just be showing you an abundance of mercy...
You are correct, I did not read the Bible as an adult and was not regularly a student of it during my childhood Catholic indoctrination, although I was a practicing Catholic and did far more than go through the motions. However, as stated by me and others here previously, I am not aware of an outright condemnation of slavery in the Bible and a generally-accepted notion that slavery was wrong and immoral. It seems to me that it took hundreds (if not thousands) of years for mankind to condemn, repudiate and outlaw slavery, although along the path of history there clearly was a gradual movement away from it, in principle, if not action.
Is it fair to say SOME slave owners removed slavery passages, while OTHERS didn't because they truly believed the Bible condones slavery? And SOME Christians were moved for abolition, while OTHERS were moved to support slavery because they felt it was justified in the Bible?
It's incredible that believers want to talk about the greatness of Christian influence in our society and country, but don't want to talk about both the good and the bad. I don't think its disputable that Christianity has been a key reason for support of slavery in our country in the past.
As far as the word of God -- it's a meaningless statement to non-believers of the Bible. That the Bible can be interpreted so differently through the passage of time or by believers in the same time period doesn't lend itself to belief that the Bible represents the word of God (to the non-believer).
Mega, you do a lot of research to bring atheist content to this thread, but do not seem to want to do the same sort of research to discover Bible answers.
I don’t know who here has avoided the bad done in the name of Christianity. Seems the atheists have reminded us repeatedly of that. You just have to read this thread to see it. Even my post to which you responded acknowledges those things, yet you act as if you have not seen it. Odd.
As to the Bible, this thread has become about people who have not studied scripture pointing to scripture and making bold conclusions. I wish you the best.
Walk in to any children's hospital, and it's easy to see just how far your God's mercy extends.....
I don't disagree that atheists or Christians can do good or bad. Really I was making a specific point on Christian influence on slavery in this country, but not condemning the religion on the whole.
In my life I've not really encountered "bad" in the name of Christianity -- I didn't grow up in a religious household, but I can say that as a kid some of my friends tried to convert me many times. I even said whatever words I needed to say to be "saved" when i was age 9 or 10. I attended events with friends at churches growing up, had girlfriends that were very religious, and was even a part of Campus Crusade for Christ my freshman/sophomore years at UK. I never viewed any of it as "bad", and in the end no one forced me to do anything.
I have definitely not studied scripture, and i start from a blank slate. Should I believe in God? And if so, do I believe in the Bible. This is where I am, and it's also why I don't participate in the scripture quoting exercises in this thread. Good luck
Yet no mercy for a local 10 year old girl who was nailed by an impaired driver as she was crossing the road to catch her school bus as it sat there stopped with the lights flashing and the STOP arms extended. The car was traveling 59 mph in a 35 mph zone and hit her so hard that it knocked her out of her shoes and her backpack landed on the other side of the road. No mercy for her little brother and mom who were there to see her off, but instead were treated to that horror show, as were her classmates, her bus driver and other motorists who had actually stopped for the bus. Had this little girl dared God to strike her down? Had her mom done something blasphemous? Her brother? No mercy, just a lifetime of nightmares to be replayed daily in their heads.
Religion and worshipping any deity, invisible or not, is so bizarre to me, as is reading ancient scribblings written by other men who have reinterpeted and rewritten them to suit their own needs/desires. I have no problem with people doing any of that, as long as they don't bring harm to others and/or try to enforce their beliefs on others, especially when they try to do it through government.
Speaking of bringing harm to others, has anyone watched Shiny, Happy People on Prime? It's about the Duggars (TLC 19 Kids & Counting), and the cult/organization that backs them. It's a WEIRD-O-RAMA docuseries that shows how these monsters exploited the most vulnerable people for their own profit and desires.
Just so I am understanding the premise here...you want God to step in when a drunk driver is about to hit a 10 year old child? Or when a child develops cancer, He is supposed to step in and stop it?
All of what you guys said above is heart breaking. Really is. I would have preferred if the guy had never gone to the bar and gotten hammered, and made a terrible decision to drive. Instead of directing your ire at God, it is quite remarkable that you don't lash out at the drunk for driving...
At what point does one lose their free will? Should God prevent every single person who is impaired from getting in a car? From going to the bar? From taking that first sip? When exactly should God intervene, removing our free will?
Childhood cancer sucks. Unfortunately, it is the result of sin in this world. Not because God is merciless and enjoys seeing children and their families suffer, but because we are awful people who sin. I trust in a God who sees the entire picture/tapestry, something that none of us can.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Just so we’re clear here. You believe that an invisible man that lives somewhere up in the sky does nothing to stop a drunk driver from murdering innocent people? And you also believe that this same invisible man that lives somewhere up in the sky gives cancer to children because humanity commits “sin”? And, believing these things, you not only think that the invisible man is good and smart and kind and loving, but you also chose to worship that invisible man?
Wow!
For those sincerely interested in a Christian historian’s discussion about slavery and the Bible, you may find this interesting.
www.desiringgod.org
Slavery Old and New: Comparing Early America with Biblical Times
Was slavery in New Testament times as bad as it was in the early modern era? Professor Thomas Kidd compares ancient slavery with the New World.
www.desiringgod.org
Supposedly, this is all part of your God's plan. So the ire directed towards him is warranted
People want to change the Constitution, say how dumb the writers were and it’s just 200 something years old. Some people claim the same about something 2000 years old. Relax, things are going pretty well.
I believe that is what a loving God would do......
If we are all at the mercy of your God's master plan, how do we have free will?
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