Dummy, we had all of these discussions, you and I and others, ad nauseam, in the thread that was shut down.
Why won’t you tell us what you mean by others sacrificing their humanity?
POLL: Is there a God ??
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Dummy, we had all of these discussions, you and I and others, ad nauseam, in the thread that was shut down.
Why won’t you tell us what you mean by others sacrificing their humanity?
In a general and simple way, does this essentially mean that Abraham Lincoln did what God (OT) and Jesus (NT) failed to do ??
For those not privy to the thread closed a few months or so ago, all of these discussions including Ohio and Dummy happened and all of their insincere questions were discussed over and over again. This is not new. It’s their schtick. I bet they do this on more than this forum. It’s an obsession.
You will have to explain that. Not sure what you mean. I was simply asking did it take the courage of Abraham Lincoln (and many others who died) to do what the creator failed to do ?? Is the suggestion that the Civil War was part of God's plan, in a direct or indirect way ?? The whole slavery issue has been a tough one for me to reconcile and I think this discussion has been a good one.
Furthermore, I've even wondered how blacks have been able to believe in and worship a God that never admonished and called for the eradication of slavery ... thousands of years ago. For that matter, I've never totally understood how blacks can play at Ole Miss for a team called the Rebels. Obviously, they do and I'm missing something. But, I've always wondered ...
I am referencing verse 47 from Ch 25 in Leviticus, the passage that you referenced originally. Verse 47 clearly speaks to voluntary servitude because of being poor. There is literally no other way to interpret it.
As for your above verse in Luke, again, this is not advocating for slavery in the slightest. Did you read verses 44-46? The servant is beating the other male and female servants because the master is away and he is not expecting him back soon. So he takes advantage of that by beating the other servants and taking advantage of them. Then in verse 47 the master comes back and serves up a just punishment to the servant who was beating the other servants while the master was gone.
I don't understand in the slightest how you think this supports slavery. This would be the last verse I would pick to try and support that.
Everyone has been enslaved at some point or another, and some black people enslaved other black people. For African AMericans to refuse Christ simply because some of their ancestors were enslaved here and more recently is illogical.
War is like any other evil. God is not the author of it, but the wicked hearts of men.
Do you agree with the bible about dashing infants heads against rocks? Sorry, I forgotten you've already answered yes to that question. Thus my reason for not explaining "sacrificing one's "morality to you.
So you're cool with beating slaves, and passing them on to your children. Since they are your property!
Yeah, and it has always been immoral. Your God explicitly gives instructions on how slavery should be done.
I have to agree with this. It is either immoral, or it isn't. We all agree that it is, of course. So ... God either admonished and condemned it, or he didn't.
It seems to me, the question we are discussing is why would a loving, benevolent, just, caring, merciful and omnipotent God fail to do so ??
For many, it is a very logical question and a stumbling block to believing in his existence. At least, it is for me. Slavery is so abhorrent, it is UFB that he didn't condemn it ... early on and for posterity.
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Simply your bible condones beating people....slave or not! Does he ever say its wrong to beat people?
I have no idea what you are talking about anymore. I have logically explained how both passages you presented do not support slavery. Very clearly.
And you respond back with I am cool with slaves being beaten? You are not making any sense.
I think at this point, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. You can keep thinking the Bible supports slavery. Have at it.
No, he is not the author of war, but he supposedly revealed the commandment ... THOU SHALT NOT KILL. Accordingly, the slavery issue is a conundrum.
These issues are not conundrums. There are some truths which are paradoxical, yes, but these are not them.
Free will on the part of the slaveholder-not the slave.
The greatChristain apologist William Lane Craig, has likened Old Testament and Roman slavery to indentured servanthood. A way a man could pay off his debts. We know historically-and from the Bible itself this just isn't true-unless your want to believe that people submit to severe beatings out of their own free will.
No, so briefly explain your point, please.
If you do not care to, that's fine.
Your message was cryptic to me, but I am not biblically literate much, at all.
I know barely anything about Exodus.
I think if you are going to address God’s perception of involuntary slavery, you must read Exodus. Look, Exodus has been cited here by atheists repeatedly through this thread. I don’t think you can talk about this issue without reading Exodus. You know the story, right?
Yes, I know the basic story, but there are many Jewish Bible scholars, historians and anthropologists who say the entire story is myth, for whatever it's worth. Jews are vested in the story, but it is being seriously challenged.
The Biblical Exodus Story Is Fiction
When I first heard that there was not a shred of evidence discovered in the Sinai Desert that a large number of Jews had wandered for 40 years, I thought that wasn't such a big deal. I mean, it's a desert, right?
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WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Exodus 21:20-21
New International Version
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.This seems to indicate that the bible does say that slaves are property. And if one is to honestly believe that the bible is the "truth", then it seems that the bible does, in fact, support one person owning another person. Slavery.
I'll await your explanation on how I'm taking this out of context. Or how there's a unique biblical definition of the word property.
Sorry, if you are condemning God by pointing to a few verses of the Pentateuch, but then want to dodge the message presented in another book of the Pentateuch by claiming some people don’t think Exodus happened, I am not sure I can take you as serious as you repeatedly claim to be.Yes, I know the story, but there are many Jewish historians and anthropologists who say the entire story is myth, for whatever it's worth. Jews are vested in the story, but it is being seriously challenged.
The Biblical Exodus Story Is Fiction
When I first heard that there was not a shred of evidence discovered in the Sinai Desert that a large number of Jews had wandered for 40 years, I thought that wasn't such a big deal. I mean, it's a desert, right?www.huffpost.com
The Bible speaks of slavery. No doubt. It was a social construct that kept people from dying of poverty and starvation or being jailed for insurmountable debt. Here, the Bible affirms that the slave is a human being and if he or she is killed, the same shall be done to the master.
You know this, because this is not the first time you have had this “conversation.” This is on repeat. Slavery was a social mechanism to save people. There was no welfare or government or nonprofit assistance. Slavery was a creation of man to deal with such evils as poverty and starvation.
I have many questions and never claimed to have answers. My participation is honest, if not enlightened. I make no excuses and reserve the right to be wrong.
My only point would be that I suspect nobody wants Exodus to be true more than Jews ... and it is being called into serious question by their own, not outsiders. I don't know if Exodus (and Moses himself) is total myth, or not, obviously ... nor do I pretend to. Thanks for the interest and replies.
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Well, it feels like a serious dodge for someone who does not believe in God to challenge Christians on the Bible and then to say they don’t believe the Bible when a Christian pushes back.
It's crystal clear that religion springs from mind of man as opposed to the other way around. Would a supernatural, omnipotent, divine entity enjoy animals being tortured to death, delight in their blood spilling all over some "alter", savor the aroma of their roasting flesh (which would indicate he has a nose and an olfactory system??). Of course not. Ancient men lived very precarious and brutal lives, and they had no understanding of the world around them. A bad crop year, or a natural calamity might mean poverty, slavery, or even starvation for the tribe, so out of their own ignorant superstitions, they killed stuff as a bargain to their unseen deities to ensure their survival. This superstition was practiced by people the world over, just like the ancient Hebrews. Or do you believe that animal blood had some kind of magical healing power that cleansed you of your wrongdoing?
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Would a Divine, Supernatural, Entity describe himself as being "Angry", Vengeful, Wrathful, Jealous, etc? of course not-those are human emotions and characteristics, and frankly we look at them as flawed characteristics..or sins. But since the Bible comes from men and not God those are the exact characteristics we can expect men would assign to their deity in order to appease it.
And would a the divine creator of the entire universe elect to reveal himself to only a small tribe of goat herders in the Middle East? Wouldn't a creator that was the light of the world want everyone to experience that light, instead of sharing it with only a loose confederation of tribesthat misbehaved so badly, they ended up bringing about their own destruction?
Human emotions but not available to the God who created them? Hhhhmmmm … not buying that even from purely a logic perspective.
And, the “if I were God, I would do it differently” just isn’t an argument. And, the Bible demeans the Jews as repeatedly failing their call. Quite the self-serving story. Right?
I'm not dodging anything. I admit I know very little about the Bible and simply offered that some Jews have challenged the Exodus story, which you brought up, not me. I have no idea if Moses ever existed, whether the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, how many years they spent on the road to Israel, etc ... my only point here is that the Bible, to my view, is not necessarily a proof text for belief. I understand that the Bible is a source, if not the primary source, for belief in the God of Abraham and has been seriously challenged by some of God's chosen people. I find that fascinating, especially because I have the utmost respect for Jewish intelligence, knowledge and discipline.
I do not own a Bible and have no interest in reading it as a basis for belief in God. I do not believe it is. You and billions of others do and that is fine. If it gives your life meaning, that's certainly good and comforting.
Repeating ... the issue of slavery was very early on a stumbling block in my faith and journey in life. That's all ...
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Why is there a Taylor Swift thread and Is There A God thread? Shouldn’t they be combined?
I believe that Swift exists, but she is not God.
Assuming you're right-which I don't-even if a God has those emotions in it's make up would they define his behavior? Hmmmmm? Wrath and Envy are two of the seven deadly or "Cardinal" sins in Western Civilization. Are you saying that a God can commit those sins, but mortals can't? How terrifying would it be to know that there is a giant two year old in the sky throwing temper tantrums and wrecking havoc when things don't go his way. Come to think of it, that analogy seems to reflect the writings of the Old Testament, but somehow it doesn't seem very Godlike. From the outside looking in, it doesn't seem very loving either.
And where would you be without your best buddy the straw man? I said or implied nary a word about what I would do if I were God, but since you can't argue my point, you have to create your own. I made a distinct point about the behavior of those Hebrews in the Old Testament killing and burning living creatures to atone for their "sins" against their God. The belief that the blood of a living creature can atone for whatever affronts I've committed against the deity and keep him from wrecking havoc on me, my family, my tribe, etc, is referred to as blood magic and was an accepted and at least somewhat universal practice throughout the ancient world. I don't know how you can believe this kind of practice comes from the mind of God as opposed to the mind of a man.
I swear, I might actually find my religion if you just once responded to what I actually say, instead of arguing with me in your head, and creating what you think I said or what you want me to say.
God’s wrath is a wrath of judgment that is founded on His justice. He has holy wrath toward sin and evil. You don’t have to believe it, but if you quote the Bible for your accusations, the Bible does not support your conclusions. He also demonstrates love, sacrifice, forgiveness, grace, generosity, etc. So his character is not limited.
We view jealousy as negative, but we are not inherently holy. God is rightfully jealous. Our words cannot capture the character of God, but we try. His jealousy is not sinful, but is righteous and loving, seeking the faithfulness of His people. He knows what is best for us, as He designed us for a purpose. His zeal for us to be as we were designed is a good thing for us.
You did in fact impose your opinion about what God should or should not do. No strawman in pointing out that is just you saying what you would do if you were God or how YOU expect God to act. It’s a ridiculous position to take. Sorry I even responded to it.
People sacrificed their children to the gods of their day. It was the one true God who said this is an abomination, but he gave them a way to appease their anxiety and guilt over their sins. You may not believe, but even modern psychology speaks to the comfort that comes from confession. Having ways to deal with human responses is a good thing. But, scripture tells us that burnt animals is not what God desires. It only creates a pleasing aroma for Him when the heart is committed to our Lord.
You have your religion.
Verily, yea.
38 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake, shake shake it off, shake it off.
Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]
Can't you just feel the love???????
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[a]
Can't you just feel the love???????
People in this very thread can personally testify to the truth in these prophetic words of Jesus. Thanks for the quote.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Sounds JC was sent as an agent of chaos. Why would the invisible man in the sky do that?
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Matthew 18:9 NKJV
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.For those that follow the buybull, here’s something to consider. We’re getting into warm weather and you’re bound to lust after the hotties in sundresses. If it happens, you know what you must do.
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