POLL: Is there a God ??

[megablue]

The atheist hy

“general interest” - that made me laugh. Thanks.

I'm not sure what your point is, but some of what I found to be interesting was:
1) Percent of atheists in the poll is far less than the 25.8% who responded "NO" in the poll, albeit a low total voting count.
2) There is a sizable percentage (20%) of atheists who believe in some kind of a high power.
3) Atheism in Western Europe is significantly more prevalent than here in the USA.
4) The percentage of people, both USA and Europe, who do not believe in God, but do not claim to be atheists.

I thought the article might be of "general interest" because it touches on some of the things people have discussed in this thread. I did not find it partisan in any way. The Pew Research Center is supposed to be a non-partisan organization.

 

[SDC888]

None if that is news to anyone regularly posting in this thread.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I'm not sure what your point is, but some of what I found to be interesting was:
1) Percent of atheists in the poll is far less than the 25.8% who responded "NO" in the poll, albeit a low total voting count.
2) There is a sizable percentage (20%) of atheists who believe in some kind of a high power.
3) Atheism in Western Europe is significantly more prevalent than here in the USA.
4) The percentage of people, both USA and Europe, who do not believe in God, but do not claim to be atheists.

I thought the article might be of "general interest" because it touches on some of the things people have discussed in this thread. I did not find it partisan in any way. The Pew Research Center is supposed to be a non-partisan organization.

The point was I thought that link offered for “general interest” was funny. It made me literally laugh.

 

[megablue]

None if that is news to anyone regularly posting in this thread.

Maybe it would be of interest to some people who do have have followed the thread, but have not posted ?? The article has many data points.

 

[megablue]

The point was I thought that link offered for “general interest” was funny. It made me literally laugh.

Glad it gave you a lift, but my point was to imply that I was not sharing it as an argument or support for, or against, atheism ... but only because I found it to be generally (and genuinely) interesting and I thought some here might, as well.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Glad it gave you a lift, but my point was to imply that I was not sharing it as an argument or support for, or against, atheism ... but only because I found it to be generally (and genuinely) interesting and I thought some here might, as well.

Take a breath. I thought it was funny.

 

[megablue]

Take a breath. I thought it was funny.

It's all cool ... I just wanted to be clear about my intentions, if that was what made you laugh.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

It's all cool ... I just wanted to be clear about my intentions, if that was what made you laugh.

Yes. Because I don’t think people find such things as generally interesting. You do.

 

[megablue]

Yes. Because I don’t thing people find such things as generally interesting. You do

Gotcha ... I thought it was implied, but perhaps I should've said for "possible" general interest, as I can certainly agree that everyone probably did not find the article interesting. I'm sure many did not even open it. Of course, I shared it hoping that some might ...

 

[MadaboutBlue]

Glad it gave you a lift, but my point was to imply that I was not sharing it as an argument or support for, or against, atheism ... but only because I found it to be generally (and genuinely) interesting and I thought some here might, as well.

I think it's interesting too, especially in light of the fact that in the US Christian Nationalism seems to be overtaking the remains of what used to be the Republican Party.

According to this poll, 42 percent of all Christians believe that belief in God is necessary for "good morals" (whatever that actually means). Presumably these people generally believe that God is the source of all true morals, a fairly common Christian theme.

The thing that fascinates me is how close minded and myopic this argument is. Does anyone actually think that millions/billions of people that have existed on this earth before the spread of Western Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries not have morals? Sure, you could make the case that they had "morals" derived from whatever God or Gods they invented, but that would actually speak to my argument that we invent our Gods around our evolving morals as opposed to the other way around.

All people, with the exception of a few deranged psychopaths and sociopaths, have and have had "morals" through the dawn of time. These "morals" are generally linked to the survival and well being of whatever tribe/society the individuals happen to be born in, sprinkled with a little empathy that also seems to be inherent to our psyches. The belief that one's "morals' are revealed by the one true God, while the "morals" of those unfamiliar to me are non existent, harmful, or even evil, has been a source of unimaginable warfare, genocide, torture, and human suffering.

 

[SDC888]

I think it's interesting too, especially in light of the fact that in the US Christian Nationalism seems to be overtaking the remains of what used to be the Republican Party.

According to this poll, 42 percent of all Christians believe that belief in God is necessary for "good morals" (whatever that actually means). Presumably these people generally believe that God is the source of all true morals, a fairly common Christian theme.

The thing that fascinates me is how close minded and myopic this argument is. Does anyone actually think that millions/billions of people that have existed on this earth before the spread of Western Europe in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries not have morals? Sure, you could make the case that they had "morals" derived from whatever God or Gods they invented, but that would actually speak to my argument that we invent our Gods around our evolving morals as opposed to the other way around.

All people, with the exception of a few deranged psychopaths and sociopaths, have and have had "morals" through the dawn of time. These "morals" are generally linked to the survival and well being of whatever tribe/society the individuals happen to be born in, sprinkled with a little empathy that also seems to be inherent to our psyches. The belief that one's "morals' are revealed by the one true God, while the "morals" of those unfamiliar to me are non existent, harmful, or even evil, has been a source of unimaginable warfare, genocide, torture, and human suffering.

It is "interesting" to you because it provides you the springboard you are looking for to bring politics into a thread which is not political. And the "close minded and myopic" argument is far more sophisticated than you give it credit: the source of unimaginable warfare is man's immorality.

Homo homini lupus: the only sustainable way around that is through Christ, the Believer's changed heart.

 

[christophero]

This has become my favorite thread haha.

 

[dukesince91]

Christians aren't supposed to judge people. Come on, man.

Thoughts on God sending angels of death to kill babies? Thoughts on God summoning bears to maul children to death? Thoughts on God wiping the planet clean because he was mad instead of coming up with a more kind solution?

Christians aren’t supposed to judge people is probably the most common thing nonbelievers say. The book of Leviticus says you’re to judge your neighbor fairly. If we didn’t judge fairly, then we would accept all immoral actions.

 

[roguemocha]

Christians are literally called to proselytize. Ohio, myself and many other atheists don't actually care if you become atheist. We just find it ridiculous the fantastical stories that people choose to believe in.

Most religions call for people to proselytize but I do not. Come if you want, don’t if you don’t. I just enjoy church.

 

[roguemocha]

Christians aren’t supposed to judge people is probably the most common thing nonbelievers say. The book of Leviticus says you’re to judge your neighbor fairly. If we didn’t judge fairly, then we would accept all immoral actions.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

You’re actually expected to touch up your neighbor and he you, so when you go into battle you’re ready.

 

[BC_Wader]

I find it concerning that people refer to Christianity as a religion. Religion is based on rules. Do this not that. I find a lot of Christians are steadfast in this religious "rule". There is freedom in Christ. Not freedom to sin, but freedom to realize we are never good enough and his grace and mercy is good enough for us. Our righteousness is like filthy rags. Nobody is good enough and never will be. Thanks be to God he sent his Son to die for me. For all of us.

 

[crashtestdummy]

I find it concerning that people refer to Christianity as a religion. Religion is based on rules. Do this not that. I find a lot of Christians are steadfast in this religious "rule". There is freedom in Christ. Not freedom to sin, but freedom to realize we are never good enough and his grace and mercy is good enough for us. Our righteousness is like filthy rags. Nobody is good enough and never will be. Thanks be to God he sent his Son to die for me. For all of us.

Freedom? Your God demands you worship him under threat of eternal pain and suffering. What kind of freedom is that?

 

[crashtestdummy]

Christians aren’t supposed to judge people is probably the most common thing nonbelievers say. The book of Leviticus says you’re to judge your neighbor fairly. If we didn’t judge fairly, then we would accept all immoral actions.

Leviticus also says.....25: 44-46 44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Do you consider slavery immoral?

 

[christophero]

Reminds me of Life of Brian.
Blessed are the cheesemakers? What does he mean by that?
It's not to be taken literally, it can mean any type of manufactured dairy products.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Who could have thought that when this simple thread was started it would be atheists redundantly and ignorantly attacking Christianity. Uh …. everyone?

Well done @megablue, the old thread where atheists acted like jerks got closed and you found a way to release the atheist obsession again.

 

[megablue]

Who could have thought that when this simple thread was started it would be atheists redundantly and ignorantly attacking Christianity. Uh …. everyone?

Well done @megablue, the old thread where atheists acted like jerks got closed and you found a way to release the atheist obsession again.

1) I think the thread has been quite interesting, with honest and sincere exchanges of thoughts and perspectives.
2) I've not seen the attacking you describe, but certainly there have been strong opinions.
3) I had no clue that there was a ever a poll and/or thread like this here before.
4) The only obsession I see from atheists here is one for the truth about the existence of a god. I think most, if not all, have stated they are open to accepting belief in a god ... if they were provided convincing evidence.
5) I have been surprised that there has been no participation by non-Christian believers. I think hearing from Jews, Muslims and others would be interesting.
6) No one has to open, read or participate in this thread if they are not interested and especially if they feel they are being attacked, versus simply challenged.
7) The thread will certainly fade out soon, but I've enjoyed it. I think the spirited discussion has been excellent.
8) As I stated when the poll closed, I was surprised the NO votes were not higher. I was expecting at least 30%. As someone posted early on, perhaps I should've included a "Maybe" selection. If so, there may have been more voting participation and discussion.

 

[SDC888]

4) The only obsession I see from atheists here is one for the truth about the existence of a god. I think most, if not all, have stated they are open to accepting belief in a god ... if they were provided convincing evidence.

There is not evidence of that sort; as I stated multiple times, once cannot prove His existence one man to another. God did not make a universe where He is proven by experiment the same way we prove to ourselves the laws of physcis.

Since such convincing evidence is unattainable, your search for it cannot actually be the source of your obsession. So then, what is?

 

[megablue]

There is not evidence of that sort; as I stated multiple times, once cannot prove His existence one man to another. God did not make a universe where He is proven by experiment the same way we prove to ourselves the laws of physcis.

Since such convincing evidence is unattainable, your search for it cannot actually be the source of your obsession. So then, what is?

You are correct and we agree, it seems to me, that no demonstrable evidence currently exists. I do not expect it to exist during my lifetime, but I am open to the possibility.

The source is simply the quest for truth and answers to perhaps the deepest question mankind has ever asked. It may be best to say people who want to know the truth, seek it.

To my view, faith in a god is belief without evidence. I do not have faith. I do not find my lack of faith as joyful or depressing, only factual. I have recognized and accepted it.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

1) I think the thread has been quite interesting, with honest and sincere exchanges of thoughts and perspectives.
2) I've not seen the attacking you describe, but certainly there have been strong opinions.
3) I had no clue that there was a ever a poll and/or thread like this here before.
4) The only obsession I see from atheists here is one for the truth about the existence of a god. I think most, if not all, have stated they are open to accepting belief in a god ... if they were provided convincing evidence.
5) I have been surprised that there has been no participation by non-Christian believers. I think hearing from Jews, Muslims and others would be interesting.
6) No one has to open, read or participate in this thread if they are not interested and especially if they feel they are being attacked, versus simply challenged.
7) The thread will certainly fade out soon, but I've enjoyed it. I think the spirited discussion has been excellent.
8) As I stated when the poll closed, I was surprised the NO votes were not higher. I was expecting at least 30%. As someone posted early on, perhaps I should've included a "Maybe" selection. If so, there may have been more voting participation and discussion.

That is rich.

 

[megablue]

That is rich.

Thank you.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Thank you.

Yeah, no problem. You participated the in last thread. You started this thread and Ohio, Dummy and others have come, as before, and belittled Christians with childish comments. Not the enlightenment you claim.

 

[megablue]

Yeah, no problem. You participated the in last thread. You started this thread and Ohio, Dummy and others have come, as before, and belittled Christians with childish comments. Not the enlightenment you claim.

I did not participate in a previous thread, as I did not know one ever existed. I am relatively new to The Paddock. You may be thinking of a poll/thread I initiated on the fascinating topic of Free Will, perhaps. I enjoyed it, as well.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I did not participate in a previous thread, as I did not know one ever existed. I am relatively new to The Paddock. You may be thinking of a poll/thread I initiated on the fascinating topic of Free Will, perhaps. I enjoyed it, as well.

It was not a poll, mega. It was a thread started by a Christian and then became an obsession for atheists. Including one name Megablue who wrote about being a Catholic and then leaving the church for an atheist perspective.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I may very well be petty, but I ain't no hypocrite.

We might have to revisit your definition of hypocrite. You attempt, with a biblical misunderstanding, to hold Christians to a standard you don’t have any interest in meeting yourself. You do it under the guise of holding Christians to a biblical standard you misunderstand (judging) when atheists have no standard at all. I call that hypocrisy.

 

[megablue]

It was not a poll, mega. It was a thread started by a Christian and then became an obsession for atheists. Including one name Megablue who wrote about being a Catholic and then leaving the church for an atheist perspective.

Well, that certainly sounds like me, but I do not remember the thread or ever posting in it. At 71, my memory is not as sharp as it once was, unfortunately, so you may be right. I definitely posted that information and background in this thread ... no question.

 

[SDC888]

You are correct and we agree, it seems to me, that no demonstrable evidence currently exists. I do not expect it to exist during my lifetime, but I am open to the possibility.

The source is simply the quest for truth and answers to perhaps the deepest question mankind has ever asked. It may be best to say people who want to know the truth, seek it.

To my view, faith in a god is belief without evidence. I do not have faith. I do not find my lack of faith as joyful or depressing, only factual. I have recognized and accepted it.

There are plenty of things which are true that are also not provable in the narrow sense you've defined. If you are honestly seeking truth, then it requires something else of you.

Your view of faith is simply just that, your view, one defined for you by our secular culture. Faith in God can certainly be found through reason and evidence, and it can be every bit as Truth to the Believer as anything else (infinitely more-so even), materialistically demonstrable or not. What I would recommend to atheists reading this thread is to be honest with the question I posed you. Are you searching for truth, or are your motivations something else? Be honest with yourselves and reflect why that's the case.

 

[megablue]

There are plenty of things which are true that are also not provable in the narrow sense you've defined. If you are honestly seeking truth, then it requires something else of you.

Your view of faith is simply just that, your view, one defined for you by our secular culture. Faith in God can certainly be found through reason and evidence, and it can be every bit as Truth to the Believer as anything else (infinitely more-so even), materialistically demonstrable or not. What I would recommend to atheists reading this thread is to be honest with the question I posed you. Are you searching for truth, or are your motivations something else? Be honest with yourselves and reflect why that's the case.

I agree that my view is simply my view.
Some hold it and others do not.
I certainly feel like I'm searching for truth and I'm being honest with myself and others about it.
That search motivates thought and discussion.
That's how I see it.

 

[MadaboutBlue]

Who could have thought that when this simple thread was started it would be atheists redundantly and ignorantly attacking Christianity. Uh …. everyone?

Well done @megablue, the old thread where atheists acted like jerks got closed and you found a way to release the atheist obsession again.

Talk about an interesting perspective. I see it very differently. I'm not obsessed with Christians-or religion at all, but I don't see how anyone can deny that it all religions are a huge hammer that has been used throughout history to pound the people of the world into submission. Until very recently, right here in the United States, we had actual laws that stated who you could make love to, what parts of them you could legally make love to, control over your own reproductive system (including any kind of contraception), when you could shop, when you could buy a drink with dinner, and so on. These are all patently ridiculous, but somewhere someone thought they coincided with Biblical truths. Unfortunately, our not so Supreme Court is working to take us back to those days.

I've stated over and over..believe what you want as long as it doesn't cause any harm to others. We're not here on this planet-be happy. If you don't want to sodomize or marry a Gay man-then don't. If you don't want to buy a drink on Sunday-then don't. If you see Sunday as a Holy Day equivalent to the Jewish Sabbath, then keep your family in the house all day and study scripture. See how simple that is??

Where you and I vehemently disagree is that you define my insistence on having the very same freedoms you routinely enjoy as being "obnoxious" and "attacking your faith". I see it as defending my right to live as a choose under the Constitution.

 

[SDC888]

Talk about an interesting perspective. I see it very differently. I'm not obsessed with Christians-or religion at all, but I don't see how anyone can deny that it all religions are a huge hammer that has been used throughout history to pound the people of the world into submission. Until very recently, right here in the United States, we had actual laws that stated who you could make love to, what parts of them you could legally make love to, control over your own reproductive system (including any kind of contraception), when you could shop, when you could buy a drink with dinner, and so on. These are all patently ridiculous, but somewhere someone thought they coincided with Biblical truths. Unfortunately, our not so Supreme Court is working to take us back to those days.

I've stated over and over..believe what you want as long as it doesn't cause any harm to others. We're not here on this planet-be happy. If you don't want to sodomize or marry a Gay man-then don't. If you don't want to buy a drink on Sunday-then don't. If you see Sunday as a Holy Day equivalent to the Jewish Sabbath, then keep your family in the house all day and study scripture. See how simple that is??

Where you and I vehemently disagree is that you define my insistence on having the very same freedoms you routinely enjoy as being "obnoxious" and "attacking your faith". I see it as defending my right to live as a choose under the Constitution.

I don't think that's what anyone insists on, just that you don't bring politics into the thread.

I too insist you have those freedoms, but they have constitutional limits the radical left is simply not willing to accept. There's a thread for that type of discussion: this is not it.

 

[SDC888]

I agree with him though, the point he was actually making... all your (pl) attacks on Christianity are qualitatively ignorant.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Something I don’t think I can ever understand. Xians, admittedly, accept the god of the buybull on faith alone. They admit there’s no measurable, physical evidence since he exists outside time and space and whatever realms we know. But then how can a xian deny the existence of other gods. No measurable evidence of Oden or Zeus or Ra or Allah. Can’t those gods be embraced on faith alone?

And what other immeasurable things can a xian embrace simply on having faith that they are real? Ghosts? Mermaids? Leprechauns? Vampires? Do fortune cookies contain prophecies? Can palm readers tell about your future.

And if the other gods are thought to be false, and mystical ideas like fortune cookies and palm readers are rejected as nonsense, then how can just one entity, the xian god, be accepted? What makes the xian god so special that he alone is the only thing accepted on faith alone? All the others can be rejected due to lack of evidence?

 

[crashtestdummy]

Yeah, no problem. You participated the in last thread. You started this thread and Ohio, Dummy and others have come, as before, and belittled Christians with childish comments. Not the enlightenment you claim.

Yet you have no problem defending your faith with foolish childish claims....without evidence (talking snakes, man living inside of a fish, walking on water, rising from death, Noah's ark, invisible dictator living in the sky)
Basically asking non-believers to forgo logic and reason.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Talk about an interesting perspective. I see it very differently. I'm not obsessed with Christians-or religion at all, but I don't see how anyone can deny that it all religions are a huge hammer that has been used throughout history to pound the people of the world into submission. Until very recently, right here in the United States, we had actual laws that stated who you could make love to, what parts of them you could legally make love to, control over your own reproductive system (including any kind of contraception), when you could shop, when you could buy a drink with dinner, and so on. These are all patently ridiculous, but somewhere someone thought they coincided with Biblical truths. Unfortunately, our not so Supreme Court is working to take us back to those days.

I've stated over and over..believe what you want as long as it doesn't cause any harm to others. We're not here on this planet-be happy. If you don't want to sodomize or marry a Gay man-then don't. If you don't want to buy a drink on Sunday-then don't. If you see Sunday as a Holy Day equivalent to the Jewish Sabbath, then keep your family in the house all day and study scripture. See how simple that is??

Where you and I vehemently disagree is that you define my insistence on having the very same freedoms you routinely enjoy as being "obnoxious" and "attacking your faith". I see it as defending my right to live as a choose under the Constitution.

Wow. What a wordy strawman argument.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Basically asking non-believers to forgo logic and reason.

I would ask for you to stop with the snark that embarrasses other antheists, attempt to avoid your hypocrisy, and stop with the proclamations about scripture when you don’t really know scripture. Other than that, I am not asking anything of you.

 

[SDC888]

Yet you have no problem defending your faith with foolish childish claims....without evidence (talking snakes, man living inside of a fish, walking on water, rising from death, Noah's ark, invisible dictator living in the sky)
Basically asking non-believers to forgo logic and reason.

The atheist position is illogical and irrational.