POLL: Is there a God ??

[mcnicKY91]

It’s difficult to comprehend because you keep describing your god as loving, kind and just. If he loved me, why would he allow me to be tortured for eternity for the “sin” of not loving him back? That is not loving, nor kind, and damn sure not just. Quite the opposite of those qualities. It’s abusive.

He sent His Son who was tortured, beaten, tormented, and ultimately crucified on your behalf...to make up for all the terrible things you have done in your life. That should be you up on that cross, but Jesus did it for you. Sacrifice is the ultimate act of love.

Instead of complaining non stop about the horrors of hell, why don't you just place your faith in what Christ did for you and admit your need for a Savior? Then hell becomes irrelevant and you can focus on the joys of building your relationship with God.

You can't just go through life sinning daily and not expect to be held accountable for it at some point, can you? There are billions of people who think they can cheat the person next to them, or cheat on their spouse, lie perpetually, steal, get away with rape or murder (because they were never caught), and the list goes on and on...and think they will never be held accountable for that. Of course they will...

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

He sent His Son who was tortured, beaten, tormented, and ultimately crucified on your behalf...to make up for all the terrible things you have done in your life. That should be you up on that cross, but Jesus did it for you. Sacrifice is the ultimate act of love.

Instead of complaining non stop about the horrors of hell, why don't you just place your faith in what Christ did for you and admit your need for a Savior? Then hell becomes irrelevant and you can focus on the joys of building your relationship with God.

You can't just go through life sinning daily and not expect to be held accountable for it at some point, can you? There are billions of people who think they can cheat the person next to them, or cheat on their spouse, lie perpetually, steal, get away with rape or murder (because they were never caught), and the list goes on and on...and think they will never be held accountable for that. Of course they will...

1 - how effed up is that? Who does that. Tortures his own son and sees to it that he’s executed so I can be forgiven? If I want to forgive someone, I just forgive them. I’m damn sure not going to torture and kill one of my young’uns in order to express forgiveness. That’s really messed up!

2 - I didn’t ask anyone to do that for me. I don’t owe anyone for something they did on their own without my knowledge or permission.

3 - I choose to focus on the joys of life. Not spend time submitting to an abusive relationship full of gaslighting, being told I’m not worthy, and threats of violence.

4 - as always it’s a tad awkward making these points about a mythical creation if man’s imagination. I only do it because you seem to think he actually exists and that the buybull stories are nonfiction.

 

[mcnicKY91]

1 - how effed up is that? Who does that. Tortures his own son and sees to it that he’s executed so I can be forgiven? If I want to forgive someone, I just forgive them. I’m damn sure not going to torture and kill one of my young’uns in order to express forgiveness. That’s really messed up!

2 - I didn’t ask anyone to do that for me. I don’t owe anyone for something they did on their own without my knowledge or permission.

3 - I choose to focus on the joys of life. Not spend time submitting to an abusive relationship full of gaslighting, being told I’m not worthy, and threats of violence.

4 - as always it’s a tad awkward making these points about a mythical creation if man’s imagination. I only do it because you seem to think he actually exists and that the buybull stories are nonfiction.

Then live your life how you want dude. It is obvious to any unbiased or impartial reader that you hate the idea of God existing. That's your choice dude.

You are clearly very agitated, and I am sorry for that. A very simple solution is to stop reading this thread. No one is forcing you to do so. Just like no one is forcing you to believe in God.

You will be held accountable for your actions, just like every person ever born is, just like I will be.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Then live your life how you want dude. It is obvious to any unbiased or impartial reader that you hate the idea of God existing. That's your choice dude.

You are clearly very agitated, and I am sorry for that. A very simple solution is to stop reading this thread. No one is forcing you to do so. Just like no one is forcing you to believe in God.

You will be held accountable for your actions, just like every person ever born is, just like I will be.

I’ve tried my very best to explain my position. I’ll try once more. I do not hate your god, nor do I hate the idea that you think he’s real. I simply believe he’s a figment of your (and 2 billion+ other xians) imagination. You’ve been groomed to believe it. And at this point I’m sure it would be quite traumatic to admit to yourself that you’ve been duped.

 

[SDC8888]

I’ve tried my very best to explain my position. I’ll try once more. I do not hate your god, nor do I hate the idea that you think he’s real. I simply believe he’s a figment of your (and 2 billion+ other xians) imagination. You’ve been groomed to believe it. And at this point I’m sure it would be quite traumatic to admit to yourself that you’ve been duped.

There aren't 2 billion genuine Crhistians.

Amoung them, not one of them will have the feeling they were duped.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I’ve tried my very best to explain my position. I’ll try once more. I do not hate your god, nor do I hate the idea that you think he’s real. I simply believe he’s a figment of your (and 2 billion+ other xians) imagination. You’ve been groomed to believe it. And at this point I’m sure it would be quite traumatic to admit to yourself that you’ve been duped.

I 100% understand your position. Completely understand.

But if you are labeling God (which you say doesn't exist anyways) as a rapist, a murderer, a genocidal maniac (the list goes on for how you have characterized God throughout this thread), but then say you don't hate Him or the idea of Him exisiting...that makes no logical sense.

You don't hate a God that you think has all those traits? No hate for that? At all?

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I 100% understand your position. Completely understand.

But if you are labeling God (which you say doesn't exist anyways) as a rapist, a murderer, a genocidal maniac (the list goes on for how you have characterized God throughout this thread), but then say you don't hate Him or the idea of Him exisiting...that makes no logical sense.

You don't hate a God that you think has all those traits? No hate for that? At all?

Correct. I do not hate your god. Same as I do not hate Hannibal Lector, Darth Vader, Nurse Ratched, or any other despicable character. I can describe them all as mean, evil, unlikeable and cruel without hating them.

 

[JLoad22]

Correct. I do not hate your god. Same as I do not hate Hannibal Lector, Darth Vader, Nurse Ratched, or any other despicable character. I can describe them all as mean, evil, unlikeable and cruel without hating them.

......as you come off full of hate.

 

[christophero]

I've always found the Old and New testaments to be almost like 2 different religions. The New Testament is much more forgiving and non judgmental than the OT. The teachings of Jesus I can get behind. But the OT God just seems vindictive and spiteful and domineering, almost like someone you should be afraid of. And yet they are the same person. I don't find them consistent at all. And I grew up in the church and went to Christian and Catholic school, so I am familiar with them.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

And I grew up in the church and went to Christian and Catholic school, so I am familiar with them.

I recommend actually reading the Bible, if you have not. Jesus clearly did not see his words as running counter to God or the teachings of the OT. Perhaps counter to some of the teachings and practices of His day, but not the story of God found in the OT. I don’t expect many people will, but I recommend ponderously reading the gospels and the Acts of the Apostles and then reading the OT with the understanding that Jesus did not see himself as standing in opposition to anything written in the OT.

 

[christophero]

I hear you, but I didn't say Jesus saw it as very different. I said I did.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I hear you, but I didn't say Jesus saw it as very different. I said I did.

Understood. But, the NT you perceive as one way based upon how you were taught is the story of Jesus as God. So, if there is a wild inconsistency, you are suggesting Jesus and the authors of the NT were oblivious, when they all see their faith as the same as that professed in our OT.

 

[christophero]

You have to admit it's a pretty jarring shift in tone. I mean you don't; but that's how I see it. Every religion on Earth was written/conceived by man. To believe in one religion implies that the writers of every other religion are oblivious. You can believe what you believe, but me suggesting the possibility of it being something man fabricated should not seem like such an outlandish idea.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I've always found the Old and New testaments to be almost like 2 different religions. The New Testament is much more forgiving and non judgmental than the OT. The teachings of Jesus I can get behind. But the OT God just seems vindictive and spiteful and domineering, almost like someone you should be afraid of. And yet they are the same person. I don't find them consistent at all. And I grew up in the church and went to Christian and Catholic school, so I am familiar with them.

I am glad you can get behind the teachings of Jesus. Fun little tidbit (you may or may not be aware), Jesus speaks about the reality of hell and those suffering there more than anyone else in the Bible. Jesus spoke of hell as a warning all the time.

 

[SDC888]

You have to admit it's a pretty jarring shift in tone. I mean you don't; but that's how I see it. Every religion on Earth was written/conceived by man. To believe in one religion implies that the writers of every other religion are oblivious. You can believe what you believe, but me suggesting the possibility of it being something man fabricated should not seem like such an outlandish idea.

It's a rationalization.

Because other religions were clearly written by man, this one that you are surrounded by must be too. It's the same line of thinking, that ultimately means nothing, you unbelievers are employing over and oever again.

 

[christophero]

But you seem to be assuming i haven't read the Bible, and if I did they things would be as clear to me as they are to you. They aren't. That is why I am asking questions.

 

[SDC888]

But you seem to be assuming i haven't read the Bible, and if I did they things would be as clear to me as they are to you. They aren't. That is why I am asking questions.

I'm not making that assumption, which is your own assumption.

I said in this or one of the other threads that the bible isn't understood by the unbeliever.

 

[SDC888]

And yes, I know, it's not that you can't literally read the words written.

It's that you will misunderstand/misinterpret it. The message falls on deaf ears, as it were.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

… but me suggesting the possibility of it being something man fabricated should not seem like such an outlandish idea.

It’s an idea as old as Job and one I assumed true until I read it.

 

[christophero]

Ah so I dont understand it. Right Wow.

 

[SDC888]

Ah so I dont understand it. Right Wow.

Yes.

It's very clear to me that you (anyone as an unbeliever) don't. Reading the bible as a believer is not the same as when an unbeliever.

Why should it be?

 

[christophero]

Fair enough.

 

[ukdesi]

It's a rationalization.

Because other religions were clearly written by man, this one that you are surrounded by must be too. It's the same line of thinking, that ultimately means nothing, you unbelievers are employing over and oever again.

You can make this argument, but to do so dismisses many of the other arguments in this thread which can be summarized by saying the religion comes across as man-made rather than the word of God. When others in here question the "character" of God of the Bible, it is essentially expressing disbelief that this is the word of God. However the responses tend to be biblical in nature, which is not something anyone can argue with--biblical responses to non-biblical questions.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

He sent His Son who was tortured, beaten, tormented, and ultimately crucified on your behalf...to make up for all the terrible things you have done in your life. That should be you up on that cross, but Jesus did it for you. Sacrifice is the ultimate act of love.

Instead of complaining non stop about the horrors of hell, why don't you just place your faith in what Christ did for you and admit your need for a Savior? Then hell becomes irrelevant and you can focus on the joys of building your relationship with God.

You can't just go through life sinning daily and not expect to be held accountable for it at some point, can you? There are billions of people who think they can cheat the person next to them, or cheat on their spouse, lie perpetually, steal, get away with rape or murder (because they were never caught), and the list goes on and on...and think they will never be held accountable for that. Of course they will...

Remember, folks, that jesus died for your sins. So, if you don’t sin, then he died for nothing. Y’all keep this in mind as you plan your weekend. Have fun out there!

 

[SDC888]

You can make this argument, but to do so dismisses many of the other arguments in this thread which can be summarized by saying the religion comes across as man-made rather than the word of God. When others in here question the "character" of God of the Bible, it is essentially expressing disbelief that this is the word of God. However the responses tend to be biblical in nature, which is not something anyone can argue with--biblical responses to non-biblical questions.

Comes across as man-made to whom? To you, the unbeliever?

Yes, that further solidifies the point I made previously.

And if the OT is such a stumbling block, then don't start there, but John 1. There isn't an atheist argument which isn't dismissed in scripture.

 

[SDC888]

Remember, folks, that jesus died for your sins. So, if you don’t sin, then he died for nothing. Y’all keep this in mind as you plan your weekend. Have fun out there!

You (anyone) can't not sin in this life.

 

[ukdesi]

Comes across as man-made to whom? To you, the unbeliever?

Yes, that further solidifies the point I made previously.

And if the OT is such a stumbling block, then don't start there, but John 1. There isn't an atheist argument which isn't dismissed in scripture.

Comes across as man made to all those that are questioning the character of the God of the Bible in this thread.

 

[SDC888]

Comes across as man made to all those that are questioning the character of the God of the Bible in this thread.

The old testament specifically, not Jesus?

 

[ukdesi]

The old testament specifically, not Jesus?

the Christian God, not necessarily a specific book or Jesus

 

[LOL_Man]

how effed up is that? Who does that. Tortures his own son and sees to it that he’s executed so I can be forgiven? If I want to forgive someone, I just forgive them. I’m damn sure not going to torture and kill one of my young’uns in order to express forgiveness. That’s really messed up!

The ensuing guilt trip is a key element of the con. I did this for you so what are you going to do for me? You OWE me... I killed my son for you. So either pay me back or get the charcoal and spit out as I'm going to fry you. Oh, here's the tip basket as we're passing it around. Nothing says you love me like dollars in the basket! Don't forget my son I killed for YOU!

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

You (anyone) can't not sin in this life.

Yeah, but I figure if you sin once you’re going to burn forever. And if you sin 1,000 times you’re going to burn forever. So why not go for the world record? Live it up! Have a blast while you’re alive. You’re going to roast for eternity either way.

Unlessssss…..you beg forgiveness on the last day. Then you get 72 virgins in heaven, right?

 

[christophero]

Also if we are made this way why do we have to be sorry? If we cannot not sin why is that our fault? Its not like I'm out there doing terrible things. And if I do wrong someone I apologize to them.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Also if we are made this way why do we have to be sorry? If we cannot not sin why is that our fault? Its not like I'm out there doing terrible things. And if I do wrong someone I apologize to them.

Dude, you want people to teach you Christian theology because you pretend there are no answers to these questions. Let me recommend CS Lewis, NT Wright, Tim Keller, Dallas Willard, and many other extremely intelligent people who have also worked through these ageless questions. Put in a little work if you really want the answers … or don’t.

These are not new issues for atheists or Christians. There is a ton of scholarly work to pull from.

 

[christophero]

I've heard the answers and they are not good ones imo. It is something I struggle with.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

If someone gets raped, Christians will argue that it was God's will. Why is that?

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

If someone gets raped, Christians will argue that it was God's will. Why is that?

Because their holy book seems to be cool with it. Plenty of stories of men attacking other towns, killing the men, and raping the women. And, of course, the main buybull story where the invisible man in the sky impregnates a teenaged virgin against her will.

I find it incredible that any woman could be a xian after reading the way women are depicted in the buybull. Merely the property of their fathers until they are wed. Then property of their husbands. And, of course, to be killed and discarded like yesterday’s trash if they dare have sex before marriage. Men folk are not held to this standard.

Pretty disgusting if’n you ask me.

 

[HymanKaplan]

I don't remember reading any of that in the New Testament.
Either way, you're just describing all of society back then; both pagan and religious (whatever the religion)

No actual Christian is going to describe rape as God's will. LOL
So, here is where it would seem to stand: The non-believers in this thread don't know much, if anything at all about "our" side, and maybe even less about "their" side.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

I don't remember reading any of that in the New Testament.
Either way, you're just describing all of society back then; both pagan and religious (whatever the religion)

No actual Christian is going to describe rape as God's will. LOL
So, here is where it would seem to stand: The non-believers in this thread don't know much, if anything at all about "our" side, and maybe even less about "their" side.

Everyone has a "plan" from God. Some people get raped as a part of their plan - God's will. Why is that? We throw people in jail for rape (and rightfully so, of course).

 

[SDC888]

The ensuing guilt trip is a key element of the con. I did this for you so what are you going to do for me? You OWE me... I killed my son for you. So either pay me back or get the charcoal and spit out as I'm going to fry you. Oh, here's the tip basket as we're passing it around. Nothing says you love me like dollars in the basket! Don't forget my son I killed for YOU!

This is the same poorly reasoned line of argumentation I mentioned earlier. Because Christianity can be exploited in such a self-serving manner doesn’t actually say anything about its merits.

Any and every organization can be corrupted.

Any and every person who purposefully exploits people cloaked in Christianity does not know Christ… a point I made earlier, one isn’t a Christian simply through self-identification.

Yeah, but I figure if you sin once you’re going to burn forever. And if you sin 1,000 times you’re going to burn forever. So why not go for the world record? Live it up! Have a blast while you’re alive. You’re going to roast for eternity either way.

Unlessssss…..you beg forgiveness on the last day. Then you get 72 virgins in heaven, right?

The sinful life is not the “good life," you can't fool God with some sort of insincere and orchestrated olly, olly, oxen free!, and thatt;s Muhammadism lastly. Which also illustrates a point I was making earlier about man-made religions; they tell you what you want to hear.

All you have to do is veritably repent and believe the gospel, trust in Christ. Very nice though that you do actually get something right there, as long as you breathe you still have time.

Also if we are made this way why do we have to be sorry? If we cannot not sin why is that our fault? Its not like I'm out there doing terrible things. And if I do wrong someone I apologize to them.

It is your (general) fault choosing sin over God. You (general) are not “on the right track, baby.”

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Everyone has a "plan" from God. Some people get raped as a part of their plan - God's will. Why is that? We throw people in jail for rape (and rightfully so, of course).

If you are going to troll, please attempt to do so intelligently. At least try. My gosh, you have failed mightily today.