POLL: Is there a God ??

[Wildcats1st]

He wants to spread the word, then won't tell anyone where this obvious miracle is taking place. Because then, you know, the secret would get out.

You guys are going no where with you’re 4th grade jabs. Listen. I didn’t want to spread any word I just gave my account of why I know with 100% certainty that god exists. I’ve told faithful people where it is. And yes many many people know and the fact it hasn’t got around to you is probably god at work protecting the places he has made for his believers and those he pursues. I’m sure it’s hard to understand as matters of the spirit are
confounding to people who believe in nothing or solely themselves

 

[Caveman Catfan]

He wants to spread the word, then won't tell anyone where this obvious miracle is taking place. Because then, you know, the secret would get out.

So, you accuse him of lying.

Question for the atheist, especially those who can discuss in goodwill without the stereotypical elitist snipe, what, if anything, exists that is more than this life?

It’s an awkwardly worded question, so let me explain with two short stories, both I believe. Both are people I know well.

A successful middle aged woman died in a hospital. Died as in someone whose heart stops. As medical providers attempted to resuscitate her, she says her consciousness rose above the table and she could see her physical body below her and the medical team working to revive. She looked to the doorway of the room and there stood a very close friend who died tragically a couple of years before. Her friend told her it was not her time and she was revived.

A man was praying and while praying had a vision of floating above a street he did not know. He says he knew he was still in his room praying, but mentally was floating above a tree that was in leaf (it was winter when this happened) looking down on this street on a sunny blue-skied day. He heard a voice that essentially asked him where was he. In the fall of that same year, he was serving in downtown Louisville, when he walked around a corner and looked down a street on a blue sky sunny day and realized he was on the very street of his vision, seeing the tree he was previously over and the houses from his vision.

Two different stories from people I trust.

Is there more that explains what these people experienced? If so, do you have a theory as to what that more is?

@christophero - are the above and below lies or somehow explainable by your world view (religion)?

I really don’t think any atheist here attempt to explain these types of things through the lens of their world view. I will add another.

NT Wright speaks of a friend whose daughter was killed 1/2 way around the world. She and her husband were physically far apart when she was killed. He learned of her death when he saw a vision of her in his room that quickly disappeared. He attempted to contact her and discovered she had been killed.

How do atheists describe these stories?

 

[mcnicKY91]

Sounds like you have a good life. I’m happy for you. Seriously!

If I’m right, I get to enjoy many of the same good fortunes you have described, with none of the bad side effects of religion. No fear of being tortured for eternity for simply not buying into the bullshit. My Sundays are free. And I don’t have to pay 10% of my gross income to an organization that feeds me comforting lies.

But here is the problem with what you are assuming about me following Jesus...I have no fear of hell, like whatsoever, because of my faith in Jesus. I already know I am saved, so what exactly am I supposed to be fearing? A place I will never be?

Second, I thoroughly enjoy going to church every week, and going to small group on Thursday nights, and playing softball in our sports ministry league. I get great joy out of doing those, as well as giving money to the Lord. You are assuming that bothers me, it doesn't, I find tremendous joy in it. And it makes me happy. So what bad effects of religion (even though I don't practice a religion, I am a follower of Jesus which grossly differs than following a religion) am I experiencing if it brings me joy? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

You guys are going no where with you’re 4th grade jabs. Listen. I didn’t want to spread any word I just gave my account of why I know with 100% certainty that god exists. I’ve told faithful people where it is. And yes many many people know and the fact it hasn’t got around to you is probably god at work protecting the places he has made for his believers and those he pursues. I’m sure it’s hard to understand as matters of the spirit are
confounding to people who believe in nothing or solely themselves

Not 4th grade jabs. Grown-ass adults calling bullshit on your tale of a doorway to another dimension.

 

[christophero]

I have no problem with people having faith just the attitude of some on here. None of us know the truth; you are free to believe whatever you want. That is what makes this country great. And I'm not even an atheist. Both my parents are Christians and they don't have the pious attitude you guys seem to have. The sad thing is you seem oblivious to the way you come off.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Not 4th grade jabs. Grown-ass adults calling bullshit on your tale of a doorway to another dimension.

What adults? All I see is you. kinda like I was then. A skeptic. What motive would I have to lie? And look I tell my story and you come after me. That’s why I held out on this thread. That’s why I’m not going to further detail.

 

[christophero]

I would not make fun of you for your story. I might challenge it, and say that is belief, not proof. (the mind is a powerful thing). Saying I believe this is true is fine. You don't know anything. Neither do I. That's the whole point of faith. That is what I would challenge.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I’m thinking a double dose of blotter acid, followed by a 24 hour marathon viewing of “The Twilight Zone”. Then, after the fact, it seems like it all really happened.

 

[Wildcats1st]

I would not make fun of you for your story. I might challenge it, and say that is belief, not proof. (the mind is a powerful thing). Saying I believe this is true is fine. You don't know anything. Neither do I. That's the whole point of faith. That is what I would challenge.

You’re right. I don’t know anything. None of us do.

 

[christophero]

I can totally respect that.

 

[Wildcats1st]

I’m thinking a double dose of blotter acid, followed by a 24 hour marathon viewing of “The Twilight Zone”. Then, after the fact, it seems like it all really happened.

Maybe someone dosed my chicken nuggets when I wasn’t looking.

 

[SDC888]

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

The sad thing is you seem oblivious to the way you come off.

He wants to spread the word, then won't tell anyone where this obvious miracle is taking place. Because then, you know, the secret would get out.

Tens of thousands have experienced it yet no video/audio evidence? Sounds plausible.

But wouldn't you want to make the most out of life is this is all we had? Saying it's all pointless, do you need Prozac or something?

Darth Vader couldn't accept that people die and we all see how that went.

 

[christophero]

Half of those were jokes. Relax.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Half of those were jokes. Relax.

The sad thing is you seem oblivious to the way you come off.

 

[christophero]

Ok bye. Have fun here.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Ok bye. Have fun here.

Hypocrisy is tough to deal with. You avoid the tough questions, but are more than happy to judge those with whom you disagree.

 

[christophero]

Whatever you say.

 

[MadaboutBlue]

I am not sure why an atheist would post in this thread more than one time, unless to answer questions from agnostics. When atheism becomes evangelical, it is a religion.

Actually, you have exactly backward. All people of faith have to say is "Yes, there is a God, I know by my faith". That's all you really need to say. Game over, no further comment needed.

On the other hand, most of the atheists and agnostics I know don't rely on faith, and a least have an intellectual curiosity about this topic. I wouldn't presume to know all the answers, and it's even possible that further evidence might change my mind. It seems perfectly reasonable discuss what people believe and why they believe it.

 

[cole854]

On the other hand, most of the atheists and agnostics I know don't rely on faith,

They don't rely on anything, outside of taking an adamant stand against John 3:16

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Actually, you have exactly backward. All people of faith have to say is "Yes, there is a God, I know by my faith". That's all you really need to say. Game over, no further comment needed.

On the other hand, most of the atheists and agnostics I know don't rely on faith, and a least have an intellectual curiosity about this topic. I wouldn't presume to know all the answers, and it's even possible that further evidence might change my mind. It seems perfectly reasonable discuss what people believe and why they believe it.

Most atheists deny they have faith, but they rely upon faith as much as any believer. The admission that you don’t have all the evidence is an admission that your decision making involves faith. All conclusions about God’s existence require faith. This thread is inundated with atheist faith. “We don’t have to prove our beliefs about God” is a faith claim. I don’t have to look past your second paragraph to see proclamations of faith.

And, atheists promote morality all the time in conversation about religion. “It’s just not right to believe one belief is right” and “the exclusivity of some religions is ugly” and “religion should be private” and when they offer the cliche quote attributed to Ghandi. “I am better than the god of the Bible.” It’s all atheist morality being espoused, as if atheists acting better than Christians would mean God does not exist. Christians should be the ones admitting they sin and need a savior. People are not inherently good, despite how much they may claim the contrary.

Finally, the first paragraph might seem true from an atheist’s perspective. Maybe. An atheist believes we die and our drive is wiped clean, our perspective and “spirit” is gone, and our shells break down to become building blocks for other things in nature. If that belief is secure, why waste your time debating Christians? Your beliefs and my beliefs mean nothing. They are only temporarily stored in our software. We weren’t, we were, and we weren’t again.

For a Christian, there is eternity. I suspect they could act as accused here and only care about themselves in eternity, and many Christians have and do, but if you care about others, you want that for everyone. And, God tells us in scripture to proclaim Him and offer Him to those who don’t know. So, we believe it is God’s will for you to hear the good news. “I know my faith … game over” would be a selfish approach that denies God’s command. And, some atheist would surely condemn it saying Christians are oblivious as to the way they come off to others. 😆

In these discussions, people on both sides invariably will play the victim at some point. I have no doubt I have in this very thread at some point. But, I don’t think you have made a convincing argument. Hopefully, you can receive that with the goodwill it is intended.

 

[Lost In FL]

Everyone steps out on faith, religous and non-religous alike.

 

[MadaboutBlue]

s deny they have faith, but they rely upon faith as much as any believer. The admission that you don’t have all the evidence is an admission that your decision making involves faith. All conclusions about God’s existence require faith. This thread is inundated with atheist faith. “We don’t have to prove our beliefs about God” is a faith claim. I don’t have to look past your second paragraph to see proclamations of faith.

As you often do, at least in this thread, you base your lengthy diatribe on your creation of what you interpret I and others believe, instead of what we actually believe. Your response represents a rather strange mixture of arrogance and persecution I've come to generally expect from the devoted of all faiths.

You avoid my actual statement and launch into your harangue of my supposed faith and beliefs. I have no knowledge of, or no faith in, anything that might happen after we pass from this life. My logical mind cannot accept the idea of a entity, supposedly the epitome of all that's loving, good, and holy in the universe, who would zapping the majority of his children he purports to so desperately love, into a napalm pit of the worse torture imaginable for all of eternity, I'm a father, and I could never do that to any of my children, and I doubt you could either.

I suppose to be fair, I have some faith torturing most of us for eternity, won't happen, but I really don't know what will. Back to my original statement which you failed to address, the fact that I don't know for sure what will happen doesn't suppress my curiosity about it all, and I feel perfectly justified in discussing it on this topic and thread.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

As you often do, at least in this thread, you base your lengthy diatribe on your creation of what you interpret I and others believe, instead of what we actually believe. Your response represents a rather strange mixture of arrogance and persecution I've come to generally expect from the devoted of all faiths.

Wow. That’s not too judgmental. And, well done working yourself as a victim right out of the gate. I guess only you should be able to discuss these things. Understood.

You avoid my actual statement and launch into your harangue of my supposed faith and beliefs. I have no knowledge of, or no faith in, anything that might happen after we pass from this life.

I did not say you did.

My logical mind cannot accept the idea of a entity, supposedly the epitome of all that's loving, good, and holy in the universe, who would zapping the majority of his children he purports to so desperately love, into a napalm pit of the worse torture imaginable for all of eternity,

And, an example of the morality of atheists being exhibited along with the faith I mentioned.

I'm a father, and I could never do that to any of my children, and I doubt you could either.

More personal morality on display. I would die for my kids. Our God did that. I would let our kids walk away from me if f that is what they desire. Our God does that.

I suppose to be fair, I have some faith torturing most of us for eternity, won't happen, but I really don't know what will.

Thanks for being fair.

Back to my original statement which you failed to address, the fact that I don't know for sure what will happen doesn't suppress my curiosity about it all, and I feel perfectly justified in discussing it on this topic and thread.

You responded to my post about atheists. If you are not an atheist, I am not sure why you tried to correct me with your own diatribe. And, I think you should feel perfectly justified discussing a topic of interest on a message board. Never said otherwise.

I hope you have a great day.

 

[mcnicKY91]

The Constitution is pointless?

Springfield man charged with demanding meat at gunpoint

REPUBLIC, Mo. — On April 18, Republic Police Department officers were called to a Price Cutter to respond to a call about a robbery in which a man held an employee at gunpoint so that he would be s…

www.ozarksfirst.com

The Constitution doesn't exist if God doesn't exist.

And if somehow everything came into being randomly without any intelligent design, any form of a Constitution we would have would look unrecognizable compared to what we actually have.

 

[megablue]

Here's a heavy and fascinating question that occurs to me. As science and cosmology move along, if it were to become generally-accepted (if not absolutely proven) that the universe has always existed, what would that do to the notion of God as its creator ?? I am not saying the position of a universe without origin will ever scientifically evolve, with certainty or otherwise, but I've seen some mention of it and the issue is under study and consideration.

 

[MadaboutBlue]

More personal morality on display. I would die for my kids. Our God did that. I would let our kids walk away from me if f that is what they desire. Our God does that.

BUT...since you took the time to pick apart my answer-which is fine, I enjoyed reading your responses-you left out the biggest single question. Actually you opened up another comensurate questionL

A: If your kids choose to walk away from you of their own free will, is threatening them with the worst possible torture-FOR ETERNITY-is actually letting them act of their own free will.

B: You said you would die for your kids. I believe you. I would guess you're an upstanding, compassionate father, and good role model who would pay the ultimate price for his children (that's not being sarcastic btw). So the you question you didn't answer was "could you under any circumstance sentence them to the worst possible torture/punishment-FOR ETERNITY-for walking away from you?" I think we already know the answer. My guess is you'll probably say something about God's morality, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. This is a morality that I can't wrap my mind around, and if this is the truth, I personally have no choice but to find it evil, no matter how hard I try to explain it away.t.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

BUT...since you took the time to pick apart my answer-which is fine, I enjoyed reading your responses-you left out the biggest single question. Actually you opened up another comensurate questionL

A: If your kids choose to walk away from you of their own free will, is threatening them with the worst possible torture-FOR ETERNITY-is actually letting them act of their own free will.

B: You said you would die for your kids. I believe you. I would guess you're an upstanding, compassionate father, and good role model who would pay the ultimate price for his children (that's not being sarcastic btw). So the you question you didn't answer was "could you under any circumstance sentence them to the worst possible torture/punishment-FOR ETERNITY-for walking away from you?" I think we already know the answer. My guess is you'll probably say something about God's morality, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. This is a morality that I can't wrap my mind around, and if this is the truth, I personally have no choice but to find it evil, no matter how hard I try to explain it away.t.

First, we will be judged. I will not be the judge. The judge is a holy God and how He judges will not be subject to debate. Even someone who does not believe can conceive of that on some level, while none of us can truly comprehend true holiness.

Second, I don’t know how God will judge you or me. I just know He has given us both a save. I realize most atheists see themselves as good, but as you learn more about good and evil, that is a hard case to make. I know I need a savior when it comes to judgment. HE went to the cross for both us.

Third, because we have a savior and our judge is holy, the people who are not resurrected to an eternal life with God will have made that choice. How all that goes down is above all of our pay grades, but scripture does not suggest it is in anyway arbitrary or capricious.

It would give me great sadness, as Jesus wept over death in scripture, but if my kids chose not to be with me in eternity, it won’t be because our Heavenly Father was unjust. He is the founder of justice. There is no justice but that which He ordains.

Sorry for the Christianese, but I only have a second to respond.

And, the concept of free will is too deep for a quick answer. You, however, (apparently from your responses) don’t work from the filter of a just God. It’s one of the most repeated comments in scripture. I believe God is just. I don’t overlook that repeated fact. So, if you start from the principle that God is just and is holy and is faithful and is steadfast, you cannot come to your conclusions, but must rethink your own conclusions. If you overlook those promises, then you can come to any conclusion you desire.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

And, the concept of free will is too deep for a quick answer.

No it isn't. There is no free will, I've started that multiple times but you refuse to give in. You cannot have free will with an omniscient being. It's a corner I've kept you in and you haven't produced a logical response against it.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

No it isn't. There is no free will, I've started that multiple times but you refuse to give in. You cannot have free will with an omniscient being. It's a corner I've kept you in and you haven't produced a logical response against it.

LOL - well congrats for understanding omniscience and keeping me in a corner.

If you don’t accept that a sovereign omniscient God can know your decision before you make it, but let you actually make the decision, then we are at an impasse “corner.”

A God that cannot give you free will is not truly sovereign, but is bound by rules of your making. Congrats again.

 

[mcnicKY91]

No it isn't. There is no free will, I've started that multiple times but you refuse to give in. You cannot have free will with an omniscient being. It's a corner I've kept you in and you haven't produced a logical response against it.

I know exactly when my 8 year old twins are about to lie. I know exactly how they will act when they get into mischief. How do I know this? Did they not still have free will to do so even though I knew exactly what they were about to do? Of course they do. I just happen to be their parent, who knows them better than any other human on Earth.

How much better do you think the God of the universe who created you knows you and your ways? Just because He knows what you will do, much like how I know what my kids will do, doesn't mean you lose free will.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I know exactly when my 8 year old twins are about to lie. I know exactly how they will act when they get into mischief. How do I know this? Did they not still have free will to do so even though I knew exactly what they were about to do? Of course they do. I just happen to be their parent, who knows them better than any other human on Earth.

How much better do you think the God of the universe who created you knows you and your ways? Just because He knows what you will do, much like how I know what my kids will do, doesn't mean you lose free will.

Why do xians pray? Your god knows you better than you know your own kids,right? So he/she/it knows when you’re sad, depressed, sick, in need of a favor, yes? Why pray? He must already know.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

““And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6‬:‭5‬-‭13‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Matthew 6:5-13 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have re | English Standard Version 2016 (E

“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have re

bible.com

 

[Caveman Catfan]

“And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’ For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’” And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?””

‭‭Luke‬ ‭18‬:‭1‬-‭8‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Luke 18:1-8 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. And there was a wido | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)

And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. And there was a wido

bible.com

 

[mcnicKY91]

Why do xians pray? Your god knows you better than you know your own kids,right? So he/she/it knows when you’re sad, depressed, sick, in need of a favor, yes? Why pray? He must already know.

Because God answers prayer. Sometimes in His way, other times in what we want. Again, just because He knows what is going to happen, doesn't mean He doesn't answer prayers. They are not mutually exclusive.

Additionally, as Christians, we pray to grow closer to God. Knowing that I have a means to talk with my Creator is awesome.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Because God answers prayer. Sometimes in His way, other times in what we want. Again, just because He knows what is going to happen, doesn't mean He doesn't answer prayers. They are not mutually exclusive.

Additionally, as Christians, we pray to grow closer to God. Knowing that I have a means to talk with my Creator is awesome.

So, an all-knowing creator of the entire universe and all life within it, the guy with the master plan, changes his master plan based on a telepathic request from one of his 8,000,000,000 creations?

And what if you pray for rain, while your neighbor prays for a sunny day? Do those offset? Or does your god decide who gets their way and who does not?

 

[mcnicKY91]

So, an all-knowing creator of the entire universe and all life within it, the guy with the master plan, changes his master plan based on a telepathic request from one of his 8,000,000,000 creations?

And what if you pray for rain, while your neighbor prays for a sunny day? Do those offset? Or does your god decide who gets their way and who does not?

He answers prayer based on what ultimately glorifies His name. Additionally, two people can pray for different things, and still get an answer, just might not be the answer they wanted.

Again, as pointed out numerous times in this thread, and has been proven to be true throughout, atheists very quickly stop debating the reality of God to focus on perceived shortcomings in God's character. I will never understand that approach. All it attempts to do is make Chrisitians seems morally inferior because they worship a God that atheists deem morally reprehensible (even though He doesn't exist according to them). Such a strange tactic.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Additionally, as Christians, we pray to grow closer to God. Knowing that I have a means to talk with my Creator is awesome.

When you talk with your creator, what do you talk about? Are you like, “Yo, god, what up? How’s your day been?”? And then he’s like, “Just hangin’ out atm. Gave a few toddlers cancer earlier. Might oversee some civil unrest in central Africa later. Then I gotta figure out whether to send rain or sunshine to Kentucky after getting conflicting requests.”.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

He answers prayer based on what ultimately glorifies His name. Additionally, two people can pray for different things, and still get an answer, just might not be the answer they wanted.

Again, as pointed out numerous times in this thread, and has been proven to be true throughout, atheists very quickly stop debating the reality of God to focus on perceived shortcomings in God's character. I will never understand that approach. All it attempts to do is make Chrisitians seems morally inferior because they worship a God that atheists deem morally reprehensible (even though He doesn't exist according to them). Such a strange tactic.

Perceived shortcomings in his character? LOL! According your favorite book he murdered 99.99999% of all humanity. Innocent babies, pregnant women, kids, all drowned. Because he felt like it.

Perceived shortcomings in his character? Holy crap, dude.

 

[mcnicKY91]

Perceived shortcomings in his character? LOL! According your favorite book he murdered 99.99999% of all humanity. Innocent babies, pregnant women, kids, all drowned. Because he felt like it.

Perceived shortcomings in his character? Holy crap, dude.

Why do you care so much? Seems to me you hate a God that you say doesn't exist? How can you hate something so badly that doesn't even exist? Is that even possible?