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POLL: Is there a God ??

Is there a God ??

  • Yes

    Votes: 216 76.9%

  • No

    Votes: 65 23.1%
  • Total voters
    281
  • This poll will close: .
mcnicKY91 said:
Why do you care so much? Seems to me you hate a God that you say doesn't exist? How can you hate something so badly that doesn't even exist? Is that even possible?
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It’s not possible. That why I don’t hate your god. I never said I hate your god, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that. I simply have questions. Lots of them. And since this is a discussion forum, and the topic is “is there a god?”, I’m here discussing this topic.
 
WildcatfaninOhio said:
It’s not possible. That why I don’t hate your god. I never said I hate your god, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that. I simply have questions. Lots of them. And since this is a discussion forum, and the topic is “is there a god?”, I’m here discussing this topic.
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I have no problem discussing the topic. I enjoy the dialog (makes the workday go faster).

However, the topic is "Is there a God," which has been debated in good faith for a decent amount of this thread. But debating is there a God 100% centers around the reality of God, or evidence for his existence. Based upon the majority of your posts, you seem to want to always discuss His character (killing of babies, cancer in the world, genocidal maniac, answers to prayer, etc) which differs drastically than His existence.

You have been clear that you don't believe God exists, yet you constantly reference the character of someone who you say doesn't exist. That's all I am trying to say.
 
mcnicKY91 said:
I have no problem discussing the topic. I enjoy the dialog (makes the workday go faster).

However, the topic is "Is there a God," which has been debated in good faith for a decent amount of this thread. But debating is there a God 100% centers around the reality of God, or evidence for his existence. Based upon the majority of your posts, you seem to want to always discuss His character (killing of babies, cancer in the world, genocidal maniac, answers to prayer, etc) which differs drastically than His existence.

You have been clear that you don't believe God exists, yet you constantly reference the character of someone who you say doesn't exist. That's all I am trying to say.
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Just trying to understand how believers overlook the “shortcomings in his character” and are able to worship, admire, communicate with, and believe in such a god. If I can understand, maybe I too could bring myself to believe. Then he’d exist. In my head, of course. Just as he exists in yours.
 
mcnicKY91 said:
I know exactly when my 8 year old twins are about to lie. I know exactly how they will act when they get into mischief. How do I know this? Did they not still have free will to do so even though I knew exactly what they were about to do? Of course they do. I just happen to be their parent, who knows them better than any other human on Earth.

How much better do you think the God of the universe who created you knows you and your ways? Just because He knows what you will do, much like how I know what my kids will do, doesn't mean you lose free will.
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You do not know what your kid will do with 100% certainty, though. You may have an idea of how he may act/react.

God knows what I will do with certainty. I was allowed to exist with the notion I would ultimately not believe.

If god cared, he should have made people who 100% would believe in him instead of damning his own creation to a hell.
 
MidseasonTweak said:
You do not know what your kid will do with 100% certainty, though. You may have an idea of how he may act/react.

God knows what I will do with certainty. I was allowed to exist with the notion I would ultimately not believe.

If god cared, he should have made people who 100% would believe in him instead of damning his own creation to a hell.
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I don't know if you do or don't have kids, but parents know 100% of the time when their little ones are about to lie...

That aside, I am beyond grateful that God created me with free will to make my own choices and not be a robot who is forced to worship him. How boring of a life would that be...
 
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WildcatfaninOhio said:
Just trying to understand how believers overlook the “shortcomings in his character” and are able to worship, admire, communicate with, and believe in such a god. If I can understand, maybe I too could bring myself to believe. Then he’d exist. In my head, of course. Just as he exists in yours.
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I would tell you this as a believer...if you read the entire Bible (which is incredibly long), 99.9% of it is filled with stories about God's grace, mercy, forgiveness, goodness, and love for humanity.

I look at the totality of God's Word, not just individual stories here and there, to form my overall opinion on the kind of God that he is.

For instance, I don't like the idea of hell at all. It is tough to know a place exists like that that non believers will have to be in for eternity. I also know that God hates sin, and in His infinite wisdom, that's how He chooses to hold those accountable who won't take His free gift of grace (in the form of Jesus on the cross) which makes up for that sin. And to be honest, lots of "Christians" can be the worst with not realizing how much God hates sin. They just use God as a fire insurance policy, but in reality don't want a true relationship with Him, and they will be held fully accountable for that.

With all that being said, I choose to rest in God's goodness, which is evident ad nauseum all over His Word. Just my thoughts.
 
mcnicKY91 said:
I would tell you this as a believer...if you read the entire Bible (which is incredibly long), 99.9% of it is filled with stories about God's grace, mercy, forgiveness, goodness, and love for humanity.

I look at the totality of God's Word, not just individual stories here and there, to form my overall opinion on the kind of God that he is.

For instance, I don't like the idea of hell at all. It is tough to know a place exists like that that non believers will have to be in for eternity. I also know that God hates sin, and in His infinite wisdom, that's how He chooses to hold those accountable who won't take His free gift of grace (in the form of Jesus on the cross) which makes up for that sin. And to be honest, lots of "Christians" can be the worst with not realizing how much God hates sin. They just use God as a fire insurance policy, but in reality don't want a true relationship with Him, and they will be held fully accountable for that.

With all that being said, I choose to rest in God's goodness, which is evident ad nauseum all over His Word. Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...

Just based on my limited knowledge of biblical stories I’d say your 99.9% estimate of grace, forgiveness, goodness, mercy and love are WAY too high. I mean, the book says he drowned pert near everybody. Then add killing first born sons, turning some poor chick into salt, impregnating a teenaged girl against her will, sending plagues, having his own son tortured and executed.

How about 50%, maybe? Try to judge impartially?
 
mcnicKY91 said:
I don't know if you do or don't have kids, but parents know 100% of the time when their little ones are about to lie...

That aside, I am beyond grateful that God created me with free will to make my own choices and not be a robot who is forced to worship him. How boring of a life would that be...
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I do have kids, and you can predict accurately a lot of things, sure. But we are not omniscient.
 
WildcatfaninOhio said:
Just based on my limited knowledge of biblical stories I’d say your 99.9% estimate of grace, forgiveness, goodness, mercy and love are WAY too high. I mean, the book says he drowned pert near everybody. Then add killing first born sons, turning some poor chick into salt, impregnating a teenaged girl against her will, sending plagues, having his own son tortured and executed.

How about 50%, maybe? Try to judge impartially?
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You are right. It is not 99.9% of the Bible...I was using that inflated percentage to explain my overall point.

To know exactly would be tough to calculate. I do know that the Bible contains over 31,000 verses, all of varying length. Some super short, some super long. Even if you were to include the flood, the Passover of killing first born son, plagues, etc...I would still venture 90 plus % doesn't contain stories about events you would deem reprehensible.
 
mcnicKY91 said:
You are right. It is not 99.9% of the Bible...I was using that inflated percentage to explain my overall point.

To know exactly would be tough to calculate. I do know that the Bible contains over 31,000 verses, all of varying length. Some super short, some super long. Even if you were to include the flood, the Passover of killing first born son, plagues, etc...I would still venture 90 plus % doesn't contain stories about events you would deem reprehensible.
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I think it’s good that you are able to admit that the god you worship is 10% evil, sociopathic monster and 90% kind, loving and good.

It’s a start!
 
I'm still curious about that one question, you seem reluctant to answer:

Could you send your own children to an eternity of being burned alive? The worst possible torture imaginable? Not whether you could accept God doing such a thing...but could you.
 
christophero said:
My question, and I ask this respectfully, is that I hear a lot about God's unconditional love. Sending people to Hell for eternity for not worshipping him is one hell of a condition.
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I believe it has been said numerous times in this thread, but God does not send anyone to hell. We make that decision ourselves. If you choose that you don't want to submit your life to the Lord and follow Christ and repent of your sin, you are free to do so. Nobody has a gun to your head. But our sin has to be dealt with, and hell is the consequence.

Again, the problem with society, including Christians, is the lack of understanding of how awful sinning against the Lord is. We cannot wrap our heads around that. God is the definition of perfection, and anything outside of that falls short of His glory.

Instead of constantly thinking about hell or why it exists, you could choose to actually have a relationship with the God of the universe who created you and loves you and sent His Son to die for you. As I have said, I don't have a relationship with God because I fear hell, I do so because I want to know my Creator even better and glorify and honor Him. Storing up treasures in heaven my man.
 
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MadaboutBlue said:
I'm still curious about that one question, you seem reluctant to answer:

Could you send your own children to an eternity of being burned alive? The worst possible torture imaginable? Not whether you could accept God doing such a thing...but could you.
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I am assuming this is addressed to Caveman, as I wasn't talking with you about that...

Maybe I am misreading, but how does any human have the ability to send someone to hell, let alone a parent sending their children? Am I misreading this?
 
I think, from reading posts in this thread, at the end of the day it comes down to: either it makes sense to you or it doesn’t. Some people like basketball, some don’t get it. It just is what it is. If you don’t get it, it’s fine, just love your life and enjoy it to the fullest. If it makes sense to you, fine, just love your life and enjoy it. Obviously religion forces things on non-believers in most of the world, so be thankful we live in America and consider it a win.
 
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Ron Mehico said:
I think, from reading posts in this thread, at the end of the day it comes down to: either it makes sense to you or it doesn’t. Some people like basketball, some don’t get it. It just is what it is. If you don’t get it, it’s fine, just love your life and enjoy it to the fullest. If it makes sense to you, fine, just love your life and enjoy it. Obviously religion forces things on non-believers in most of the world, so be thankful we live in America and consider it a win.
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Atheism forces things on believers in the world. Added just for completeness.
 
mcnicKY91 said:
I am assuming this is addressed to Caveman, as I wasn't talking with you about that...

Maybe I am misreading, but how does any human have the ability to send someone to hell, let alone a parent sending their children? Am I misreading this?
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it's just an ongoing discussion between Caveman and I. Obviously no one has the power to sentence their own children to an eternity of the worst imaginable torture for any reason, but the question is...if you did have the power to make that kind of decision, could anyone that actually loves their children do so, even if those children refused your love? Is this the the most powerful expression of unconditional love in the universe?

The more we pick at the thread of belief, the more the whole idea seems to unravel. If God demands all of us loving him and worshipping him...why did he only reveal himself to to a relatively small tribe of people in the Old Testament. For thousands of years, most of the people on the planet would have never heard of the God of Isreal. Did he only love and want a relationship with the ancient Hebrews?

Even after Jesus..where we first start learning about defined ideas of Heaven and Hell, why is religion so divided along cultural and geographic lines? If you are one of the billions of people native to Asia, what are your real chances of learning about Christianity, much less understanding it within your own cultural understanding. If our salvation form eternal torture is so dependent on a relatively narrow interpretation of ancient translation of texts from languages no one even speaks anymore, should everyone have an equal shot?
 
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Caveman Catfan said:
Really. I don’t think it’s an opinion. Have you worshipped in China? Just an example.
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Oh, gotcha. Yes you’re absolutely right, I did t consider China and other countries that are communist (I think those countries are considered atheist?). I didn’t really realize they outlawed churches or worship but wouldn’t be surprised in the least if they did.
 
Ron Mehico said:
Oh, gotcha. Yes you’re absolutely right, I did t consider China and other countries that are communist (I think those countries are considered atheist?). I didn’t really realize they outlawed churches or worship but wouldn’t be surprised in the least if they did.
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China is not a theocracy. I don’t think the suppression of belief in that country is religious, but secular. Even if Buddhism played a role, it is a non-theistic religion, like many we see in our own country.
 
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MadaboutBlue said:
it's just an ongoing discussion between Caveman and I. Obviously no one has the power to sentence their own children to an eternity of the worst imaginable torture for any reason, but the question is...if you did have the power to make that kind of decision, could anyone that actually loves their children do so, even if those children refused your love? Is this the the most powerful expression of unconditional love in the universe?

The more we pick at the thread of belief, the more the whole idea seems to unravel. If God demands all of us loving him and worshipping him...why did he only reveal himself to to a relatively small tribe of people in the Old Testament. For thousands of years, most of the people on the planet would have never heard of the God of Isreal. Did he only love and want a relationship with the ancient Hebrews?

Even after Jesus..where we first start learning about defined ideas of Heaven and Hell. why is religion so divided along cultural and geographic lines? If you are one of the billions of people native to Asia, what are your real chances of learning about Christianity, much less understanding it within your own cultural understanding. If our salvation form eternal torture is so dependent on a relatively narrow interpretation of ancient translation of texts from languages no one even speaks anymore, should everyone have an equal shot?
Click to expand...
If we are having a discussion, you should respond to an actual post so it’s obvious. Your opinions and misstatements about Christianity have been addressed in this thread, many more than once. Asking the same questions won’t change the answers.

If my children choose to live separated from me, why is it not love to permit their wishes? You would have a father force himself upon his children and then claim it was freedom or love? God gives us a choice. It’s the oldest choice in Biblical chronology. He still gives it today. Crying foul because he gives us the choice to live as we were created to live or do our own thing and arguing it is not a loving approach does not make sense to me. Forcing our choice would not be love.

The ramification of choosing other than God is the likelihood you get what you choose. He will judge us all. I realize that western modern folk don’t like the idea of being judged, but the Bible says we will be, because we all have rebelled against what is truly good. How God judges will be perfect. And, the Bible states that people will be judged differently, based upon scienter. If you trust God is Holy and loving, you will trust there will be no mistakes.

The experience of a resurrected earth united with heaven and the restoration of the garden will be beautiful and living in union with God, as designed, will be perfect, for those who wish it. I am not sure how it would be for those who don’t desire God. Maybe that would be hell. I don’t know.

You are definite with your conclusions. I thought this discussion was over. It appears you intent is to convince. You probably need to have that discussion with someone else.
 
Caveman Catfan said:
If we are having a discussion, you should respond to an actual post so it’s obvious. Your opinions and misstatements about Christianity have been addressed in this thread, many more than once. Asking the same questions won’t change the answers.

If my children choose to live separated from me, why is it not love to permit their wishes? You would have a father force himself upon his children and then claim it was freedom or love? God gives us a choice. It’s the oldest choice in Biblical chronology. He still gives it today. Crying foul because he gives us the choice to live as we were created to live or do our own thing and arguing it is not a loving approach does not make sense to me. Forcing our choice would not be love.

The ramification of choosing other than God is the likelihood you get what you choose. He will judge us all. I realize that western modern folk don’t like the idea of being judged, but the Bible says we will be, because we all have rebelled against what is truly good. How God judges will be perfect. And, the Bible states that people will be judged differently, based upon scienter. If you trust God is Holy and loving, you will trust there will be no mistakes.

The experience of a resurrected earth united with heaven and the restoration of the garden will be beautiful and living in union with God, as designed, will be perfect, for those who wish it. I am not sure how it would be for those who don’t desire God. Maybe that would be hell. I don’t know.

You are definite with your conclusions. I thought this discussion was over. It appears you intent is to convince. You probably need to have that discussion with someone else.
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Well I don't live on this board...I thought this discussion was more or less over too, but for all the paragraphs you've typed, you avoid the one really important question.. Could you sentence your own children to an eternity of horrible torture for any reason??

You can just type yes or no.
 
MadaboutBlue said:
Well I don't live on this board...I thought this discussion was more or less over too, but for all the paragraphs you've typed, you avoid the one really important question.. Could you sentence your own children to an eternity of horrible torture for any reason??

You can just type yes or no.
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Before you post your quick response, attempt some comprehension of what others write. I am as guilty as any when it comes to jumping to a response without truly digesting another’s post. Your question has been answered in the proper context, rather than from the misunderstanding upon which you stand.
 
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mcnicKY91 said:
I believe it has been said numerous times in this thread, but God does not send anyone to hell. We make that decision ourselves. If you choose that you don't want to submit your life to the Lord and follow Christ and repent of your sin, you are free to do so. Nobody has a gun to your head. But our sin has to be dealt with, and hell is the consequence.
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Trying real hard to wrap my head around this. Can’t seem to get there.

So, your god does not send anyone to hell? However, he set up a system where if we don’t believe he is real, and won’t declare that he is a shepherd and we are his sheep, we go to hell. But he doesn’t send us? We send ourselves? This is a perfect example of an abusive relationship.

What if a man hits his wife, then claims that he didn’t want to hit her. She brought it on herself. Or he tells her that if she ever leaves he’ll beat her up. We put dudes like that in jail. But if your god sets the up the same abusive relationship you worship him, and give him 10% of your gross income.

Very odd indeed.
 
WildcatfaninOhio said:
Trying real hard to wrap my head around this. Can’t seem to get there.

So, your god does not send anyone to hell? However, he set up a system where if we don’t believe he is real, and won’t declare that he is a shepherd and we are his sheep, we go to hell. But he doesn’t send us? We send ourselves? This is a perfect example of an abusive relationship.

What if a man hits his wife, then claims that he didn’t want to hit her. She brought it on herself. Or he tells her that if she ever leaves he’ll beat her up. We put dudes like that in jail. But if your god sets the up the same abusive relationship you worship him, and give him 10% of your gross income.

Very odd indeed.
Click to expand...

Your analogy is unbelievably awful.
 
WildcatfaninOhio said:
Trying real hard to wrap my head around this. Can’t seem to get there.

So, your god does not send anyone to hell? However, he set up a system where if we don’t believe he is real, and won’t declare that he is a shepherd and we are his sheep, we go to hell. But he doesn’t send us? We send ourselves? This is a perfect example of an abusive relationship.

What if a man hits his wife, then claims that he didn’t want to hit her. She brought it on herself. Or he tells her that if she ever leaves he’ll beat her up. We put dudes like that in jail. But if your god sets the up the same abusive relationship you worship him, and give him 10% of your gross income.

Very odd indeed.
Click to expand...
To be perfectly honest, I don't understand why this is difficult to comprehend.

If you don't want a relationship with God, that is your choice. Like at this very moment, you are making a conscience choice to deny the existence of God and live your life how you see fit. God has given you the ability to do so. You have even said numerous times even if you did believe He existed, you would reject Him and not want a relationship.

That is your choice dude. 100% your choice. Just like everything else in life, there is a consequence, whether good or bad, for your choices. Just because you think the consequence is too harsh is irrelevant. It has no bearing. God is just and perfect, if you want to reject him and not repent of your sin, he will let you walk away and live eternally separated from Him.
 
mcnicKY91 said:
To be perfectly honest, I don't understand why this is difficult to comprehend.

If you don't want a relationship with God, that is your choice. Like at this very moment, you are making a conscience choice to deny the existence of God and live your life how you see fit. God has given you the ability to do so. You have even said numerous times even if you did believe He existed, you would reject Him and not want a relationship.

That is your choice dude. 100% your choice. Just like everything else in life, there is a consequence, whether good or bad, for your choices. Just because you think the consequence is too harsh is irrelevant. It has no bearing. God is just and perfect, if you want to reject him and not repent of your sin, he will let you walk away and live eternally separated from Him.
Click to expand...

It’s difficult to comprehend because you keep describing your god as loving, kind and just. If he loved me, why would he allow me to be tortured for eternity for the “sin” of not loving him back? That is not loving, nor kind, and damn sure not just. Quite the opposite of those qualities. It’s abusive.
 
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