Per CJ-Louisville Meeting with NCAA Infractions RIGHT NOW

[ram1955]

Exactly how was it NOT a competetive advantage when schools were trying to land Trez and he goes to Louisville and they pay for sex on his visit.

You make my point perfectly. It's the role of the ncaa to determine the extent to which it gave them a competitive advantage. Morality is not their responsibility. If they gave Trez a piece of gum that gave them a competitive advantage, the ncaa should be more concerned with that than issues of morality. That is the responsibility of administrators, boards, and a right thinking governor that assign people to those boards.
The ncaa has sufficiently demonstrated it is ill-qualified to dictate morality

 

[KyCatFan]

Sounds like this will get milked out another season and probably even longer with the UNC fiasco. The NCAA is a joke. It would be great if a few schools started a lawsuit against them for allowing schools in their organization to break (athletic/academic) rules with no punishment to fit the crime. Maybe this will be what causes the eventual end to the NCAA with schools being tired of double standards.

 

[Jkwo]

You make my point perfectly. It's the role of the ncaa to determine the extent to which it gave them a competitive advantage. Morality is not their responsibility. If they gave Trez a piece of gum that gave them a competitive advantage, the ncaa should be more concerned with that than issues of morality. That is the responsibility of administrators, boards, and a right thinking governor that assign people to those boards.
The ncaa has sufficiently demonstrated it is ill-qualified to dictate morality

I agree with your general distinction (and it leads to some hard conversations, like that they really had no jurisdiction in the Penn St. case), but when you phrase it as "competitive advantage" you can implicitly give cover to those who cheat unsuccessfully. Not saying you're intending to do so, but it should be made clear that even if they get zero recruits for a season, if they offered them all improper benefits (like hookers), then they should still be slammed for the value of those benefits.

Where the morality thing comes into play is with the school administration. The NCAA should punish them pretty harshly for using players who received improper benefits and who, going by precedent, should be ineligible.. but you're right, if hookers isn't written in their book, then they can't just make up rules as they go (although there may be some kind of behavior clause for coaches or something).

But if anybody at Louisville had any sense of shame, Rick and his entire crew would be gone. That wouldn't be arbitrary, because every coach has behavior-related stipulations in their contract.

 

[Cat78Scot]

IMO, while the ul stuff certainly falls into the realm of immoral, what UNC has done is more within what the NCAA should be interested in: competitive advantage.
unc's conduct afforded their team advantages that other teams could not enjoy.
If they can prove what ul did gave them a competitive advantage during a particular season or seasons, their wins should be voided for those seasons. Additional consequences such as a year or two of probation would be appropriate.
We know what unc did afforded a competitive advantage. Likewise, wins should be voided, but in their case, such disregard for the rules and the duration of that behavior should result in much more severe consequences.
The ncaa is not the moral police. Their role is to make sure rules are followed so that no team has an unfair advantage.

Don't the rules specifically talk about using ineligible players and not about competitive advantage? In both cases, players that won championships were ineligible.

 

[ram1955]

Don't the rules specifically talk about using ineligible players and not about competitive advantage? In both cases, players that won championships were ineligible.

Agree. I'm using "competitive advantage" as general terms to focus on the principle. Using ineligible players does constitute a potential competitive advantage.

 

[Mojocat]

They suspended Boeheim 1/4 a season for less. They can ban Rick for a year.

Which brings up, how do you define "less"? How to decide, who gets to say, what's worse when it comes to these cases. I thought of this yesterday when listening to two local guys (Jason Anderson, Rick Bozich) insist that what North Carolina did is "far worse" than what Louisville did. I guess it depends on what standard you are using. Their reasoning is that the whole universe we're talking about here is college athletics, the point is to get an education while playing sports, and so academic fraud, like what UNC and Syracuse fashioned, goes to the very heart of the whole thing. I get that. But from an ordinary layperson, shock the conscience standard, Louisville hired prostitutes 30 something times to entice 17 year old kids.....it doesn't get much more sordid than that. So a kid took, say, 6 fake classes out of the roughly 40 he needed to graduate. Or in the case of Cuse, someone wrote papers for someone else. Compared to hookers hired by the school to come to the athletic dorms? Meh.

 

[ram1955]

I agree with your general distinction (and it leads to some hard conversations, like that they really had no jurisdiction in the Penn St. case), but when you phrase it as "competitive advantage" you can implicitly give cover to those who cheat unsuccessfully. Not saying you're intending to do so, but it should be made clear that even if they get zero recruits for a season, if they offered them all improper benefits (like hookers), then they should still be slammed for the value of those benefits.

Where the morality thing comes into play is with the school administration. The NCAA should punish them pretty harshly for using players who received improper benefits and who, going by precedent, should be ineligible.. but you're right, if hookers isn't written in their book, then they can't just make up rules as they go (although there may be some kind of behavior clause for coaches or something).

But if anybody at Louisville had any sense of shame, Rick and his entire crew would be gone. That wouldn't be arbitrary, because every coach has behavior-related stipulations in their contract.

Good point. Theoretically, a team ...say someone like Auburn could offer advantages to recruits that UK does not....and still lose. I think you understand where I'm coming from, though.
I agree wholeheartedly that the ncaa didn't have any right to be involved in the Penn St issue. However, if permitting pedophilia gives psu greater access to players, then the ncaa has reason to be involved.

 

[ram1955]

Which brings up, how do you define "less"? How to decide, who gets to say, what's worse when it comes to these cases. I thought of this yesterday when listening to two local guys (Jason Anderson, Rick Bozich) insist that what North Carolina did is "far worse" than what Louisville did. I guess it depends on what standard you are using. Their reasoning is that the whole universe we're talking about here is college athletics, the point is to get an education while playing sports, and so academic fraud, like what UNC and Syracuse fashioned, goes to the very heart of the whole thing. I get that. But from an ordinary layperson, shock the conscience standard, Louisville hired prostitutes 30 something times to entice 17 year old kids.....it doesn't get much more sordid than that. So a kid took, say, 6 fake classes out of the roughly 40 he needed to graduate. Or in the case of Cuse, someone wrote papers for someone else. Compared to hookers hired by the school to come to the athletic dorms? Meh.

Wrong is wrong. But IMO, what unc did gave them a greater competitive advantage and did so for a longer period of time than what ul did. Both, however, gained a competitive advantage over other schools that were not involved in such acts.
Sex with whores vs Dishonesty/cheating...neither will win you a medal for virtue.

 

[tapemaster8]

IMO, while the ul stuff certainly falls into the realm of immoral, what UNC has done is more within what the NCAA should be interested in: competitive advantage.
unc's conduct afforded their team advantages that other teams could not enjoy.
If they can prove what ul did gave them a competitive advantage during a particular season or seasons, their wins should be voided for those seasons. Additional consequences such as a year or two of probation would be appropriate.
We know what unc did afforded a competitive advantage. Likewise, wins should be voided, but in their case, such disregard for the rules and the duration of that behavior should result in much more severe consequences.
The ncaa is not the moral police. Their role is to make sure rules are followed so that no team has an unfair advantage.

Impermissible benefits are impermissible benefits period!

 

[JoeBeeHall]

You make my point perfectly. It's the role of the ncaa to determine the extent to which it gave them a competitive advantage. Morality is not their responsibility. If they gave Trez a piece of gum that gave them a competitive advantage, the ncaa should be more concerned with that than issues of morality. That is the responsibility of administrators, boards, and a right thinking governor that assign people to those boards.
The ncaa has sufficiently demonstrated it is ill-qualified to dictate morality

It was illegal and should be taken up by the state as such if minors were involved .

 

[ram1955]

It was illegal and should be taken up by the state as such if minors were involved .

Exactly. If it is a legal issue, it should be dealt with by legal authorities. Just as the courts don't deal with issues of competition, the ncaa should not deal with issues of law.

 

[Deli owl]

You make my point perfectly. It's the role of the ncaa to determine the extent to which it gave them a competitive advantage. Morality is not their responsibility. If they gave Trez a piece of gum that gave them a competitive advantage, the ncaa should be more concerned with that than issues of morality. That is the responsibility of administrators, boards, and a right thinking governor that assign people to those boards.
The ncaa has sufficiently demonstrated it is ill-qualified to dictate morality

haha the ul administrators have no idea about morality.

 

[Deli owl]

It was illegal and should be taken up by the state as such if minors were involved .

You should read their bylaws more carefully. They have allowances written in to cover things like that.

 

[playmorezeppelin]

I hardly ever watch eSpN anymore but I would guess they're spending 23 hours on the NFL...that doesn't leave much time for anything else...

This.....

 

[ram1955]

haha the ul administrators have no idea about morality.

Then, as per my statement, that's when people in positions to deal with such issues should step in.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Lil Brothel is unique in NCAA sports. There is no school in the nation whose Athletic Dept takes primacy over academics. There is no school in the land that would allow the staff of their hoops program and its coach to cause the school such embarrassment...over just its two main scandals. Then you add in what Bob Petrino did the first time around....then allowing him to return with open arms like an abused spouse. There should be a 30 for 30 about them. The problem is that no one really cares about their program or their diminutive, but loud/obnoxious fan base.

 

[Kybluedude]

I don't see anyone at UL jumping in to defend Jurich or Pitino now days. Seems like their support has rightfully evaporated. Papa John called out Jurich in a BOT meeting and nobody in there jumped to Jurich's defense. They all have a clear idea of his shenanigans. He had run that place under Ramsey. As the acting Pres said he's invisible to the Boards. Nobody oversees his dept. I think he and Rick will be asked to move on.

 

[lkc1234]

All day session, or 15 second session?

Pitino stated in the meeting that Louisville just gave a new meaning to the term full ride. Move on, nothing to see here.

 

[bigbluehomer]

Has it been verified that Rick was at the hearing yesterday? I mean it's perfectly believable that he "didn't know anything about it".

 

[Cats192]

Which brings up, how do you define "less"? How to decide, who gets to say, what's worse when it comes to these cases. I thought of this yesterday when listening to two local guys (Jason Anderson, Rick Bozich) insist that what North Carolina did is "far worse" than what Louisville did. I guess it depends on what standard you are using. Their reasoning is that the whole universe we're talking about here is college athletics, the point is to get an education while playing sports, and so academic fraud, like what UNC and Syracuse fashioned, goes to the very heart of the whole thing. I get that. But from an ordinary layperson, shock the conscience standard, Louisville hired prostitutes 30 something times to entice 17 year old kids.....it doesn't get much more sordid than that. So a kid took, say, 6 fake classes out of the roughly 40 he needed to graduate. Or in the case of Cuse, someone wrote papers for someone else. Compared to hookers hired by the school to come to the athletic dorms? Meh.

To me, giving hookers to 17 year old kids should be felony offenses across the board, with our without academics in the background.

 

[kybassfan]

Even with gambling, the issue of concern to the ncaa should be only the extent to which it influences the outcomes of games.

Yes and basically I agree. However we are dealing with two of the strongest motivating factors to the human animal. Sex and money.

I think we're a bit far afield of my original use of the word. In this context it is more a case of does the crime fit the punishment if so, then the punishment is morally just. In UL's case an extremely harsh punishment would be morally just. In the case of NC, anything less than obliteration is unjust to the rest of the teams which the NCAA forces to wallow in NCs filth.

 

[UKWildcatT]

Lil Brothel is unique in NCAA sports. There is no school in the nation whose Athletic Dept takes primacy over academics. There is no school in the land that would allow the staff of their hoops program and its coach to cause the school such embarrassment...over just its two main scandals. Then you add in what Bob Petrino did the first time around....then allowing him to return with open arms like an abused spouse. There should be a 30 for 30 about them. The problem is that no one really cares about their program or their diminutive, but loud/obnoxious fan base.

Any rational person would look at the athletic department at Uofl and go, "What in the hell", but living in Louisville, and listening to them, they could care less. It's incredible .

 

[JoeBeeHall]

You should read their bylaws more carefully. They have allowances written in to cover things like that.

Bylaws do not supersede state and federal laws fry the cheaters in state court .

 

[JohnnyGentle]

There is no school in the nation whose Athletic Dept takes primacy over academics.

penn state venerated an enabler of child rape

 

[mdlUK.1]

Just saw Seth Davis on the local news. He says the worst is over and he would be surprised if there were further sanctions.

Don't know how he would know but if true, SMH.

 

[ulismyman]

Just saw Seth Davis on the local news. He says the worst is over and he would be surprised if there were further sanctions.

Don't know how he would know but if true, SMH.

They wouldnt need 6-8 weeks to say you guys are good nothing further for you guys...if that were the case NCAA would just say you guys are good .....obviously thsts not the case

 

[mdlUK.1]

They wouldnt need 6-8 weeks to say you guys are good nothing further for you guys...if that were the case NCAA would just say you guys are good .....obviously thsts not the case

You are talking about what normal people would do. This is the NCAA. When have they ever been consistent in what they do?

 

[Deli owl]

Bylaws do not supersede state and federal laws fry the cheaters in state court .

In this case you are right and wrong. Yes the law can follow their precedent and prosecute at will, (and I wish they would) the NCAA can enforce paying players as they see fit. Doesn't have to be for sex or cars. Just has to be improper benefits.

 

[Kybluedude]

Any rational person would look at the athletic department at Uofl and go, "What in the hell", but living in Louisville, and listening to them, they could care less. It's incredible .

i know. You would think their students alumni and teachers would demand immediate changes. Nothing. I have no respect for them.

 

[Mojocat]

Just saw Seth Davis on the local news. He says the worst is over and he would be surprised if there were further sanctions.

Don't know how he would know but if true, SMH.

I don't mind Davis - or Bilas - unlike many around here....but can anyone think of a time when either of them were critical of a head coach? About anything? They know where the bread is buttered....

 

[*CatinIL*]

i know. You would think their students alumni and teachers would demand immediate changes. Nothing. I have no respect for them.

No kidding...not a peep from the u of l fans that I know...

 

[JoeBeeHall]

In this case you are right and wrong. Yes the law can follow their precedent and prosecute at will, (and I wish they would) the NCAA can enforce paying players as they see fit. Doesn't have to be for sex or cars. Just has to be improper benefits.

What are the KSR penalties for soliciting sex for a minor ?

 

[Bluesnky]

What are the KSR penalties for soliciting sex for a minor ?

You get your titties twisted by Ryan Lemond.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

penn state venerated an enabler of child rape

Uh no. Apples Oranges. Penn State FIRED their head coach.

 

[Kybluedude]

I have to believe the NCAA and particularly the women there have to find UL's activity and their HC and AD reprehensible. I believe UL will get hammered ... new group in charge and if they let this go what's down the road? Do you think there will be lawsuits from these underage recruits who were provided prostitutes after the sentencing?

 

[Blouman]

Special at Porcini's: Red Snapper stuffed with Italian Sausage!

Stuffed would be a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think?

 

[DrH. Lecter]

I have to believe the NCAA and particularly the women there have to find UL's activity and their HC and AD reprehensible. I believe UL will get hammered ... new group in charge and if they let this go what's down the road? Do you think there will be lawsuits from these underage recruits who were provided prostitutes after the sentencing?

....ah but not to worry. As Jurich has said, "t'is nothing to see here. The expense of the very homely "street variety" hookers employed was so low so as not to be a biggy. We were doing our civic duty to help the poor doncha know"

 

[Blouman]

There's no way Pitino gets around the failure to monitor allegation. That comes with
a show cause for him. I don't know how long the show cause lasts, I think it might be
3 years. This is the NCAA, not a court of law which will dole out the punishment. There
is no burden of proof or due process required. If the NCAA suspects something happened
that is all they need. UL already admitted 3 level 1 violations occurred and they all occurred on official visits when the the university is responsible for everything that happens. This all occurred over a 4 year period on campus. Pitino failed to monitor the program.

 

[JDHoss]

There's no way Pitino gets around the failure to monitor allegation. That comes with
a show cause for him. I don't know how long the show cause lasts, I think it might be
3 years. This is the NCAA, not a court of law which will dole out the punishment. There
is no burden of proof or due process required. If the NCAA suspects something happened
that is all they need. UL already admitted 3 level 1 violations occurred and they all occurred on official visits when the the university is responsible for everything that happens. This all occurred over a 4 year period on campus. Pitino failed to monitor the program.

IMO Ricky gets a 3 year show cause, and they get another post season ban with 2+ scholarships lost.

 

[Blouman]

IMO Ricky gets a 3 year show cause, and they get another post season ban with 2+ scholarships lost.

They'll likely have to vacate some wins too.
I saw the Ch 41 news clip of Pitino and Jurich coming out from the meeting with
NCAA. Pitino kept head down and got the hell out without a word. Jurich was stopped
and was visibly shaken for maybe the first 15 or 20 seconds spent speaking and then
he managed to regain some of his aura of authority and control with the media before
sheepishly saying UL will be glad to put this behind them.
My impression when seeing this was the 11 hours spent before the committee did not
go well for them.