North Carolina Scandal Etc

[83Cat]

Post 2 of 2:

-- Research and intel is still being gathered on potential higher numbers, but it can be stated with confidence that there are currently (as of 9 OCT) four schools that have tasked their respective university legal teams with a “what if” scenario, so to speak. “If the NCAA does not take adequate action against UNC with regards to UNC’s academic infractions (when compared to our infractions, and the penalties we ultimately received), then what is our legal recourse?” And “legal recourse” doesn’t necessarily mean appeals – they are also talking about revenue compensation due to the unfair penalties, monies lost due to negative publicity, etc.

And an ironic twist that was revealed last week with regards to possible litigation: SMU is reportedly NOT one of those schools – at least not yet. Rumor is that they felt they were going to be shielded from major penalties BECAUSE they had Larry Brown. You can figure out why they felt that way… and the ramifications (to other certain schools) based on what was eventually handed down.

-- It has been mentioned earlier on the boards about a “general atmosphere that points to severe punishment”. This remains accurate, and has only grown stronger over the past month. There are numerous people who comprise the “pool” from which the eventual Committee on Infractions will be chosen (for UNC’s specific case). Fact: UNC has put out feelers to see if they can “stack the jury”, so to speak. Fact: Certain NCAA employees have (literally) laughed at this effort, going so far as to tell jokes (in private, of course) about those efforts. (once again… those previous statements are ones that I state as clear facts)

Regardless of those ill-intended efforts… some of the COI “pool” have received documentation (official, not rival-submitted) on the breadth of the scandal (including, but not limited to, numerous portions of the NOA’s supporting documentation that UNC redacted from its release), and a “rough draft” of potential penalties have been bandied about, off-the-record.

Some of those rumors have filtered back to Chapel Hill. Word from INSIDE THE SCHOOL is that reality may be finally setting in at the upper levels.

-- From Indy: certain scenarios are on the table that give a real chance that penalties could come down quite a bit earlier than many have speculated. Timelines almost ALWAYS change, for one reason or another… so I have zero confidence in guesstimating a date. But again, enough hints have come from Indy to suggest that an acceleration is a very real possibility.

-- Finally, from the entertainment side of the world: another book is apparently in the works and being pitched to Houses though publisher/editor back channels. (per reps of two separate entities)

What else could be covered that hasn’t already been detailed in Tarnished Heels or Cheated? Good question…

The beauty of posting these updates on an internet site is that it really doesn’t put too many people at risk, considering the semi-vague form that I feel I’ve edited down some of the portions. It’s on the internet – who will believe it, right??

But those gathering behind closed doors will believe it… and while a lot of unc fans will cry “BS” on virtually all of this… there are certain people in South Building who are aware of some of the above happenings, and they most definitely will not be crying foul.

I know that some people may not see this has a major update, and/or that there’s nothing particularly insightful or damning about it. Maybe so… maybe not.

But as the saying goes, the devil is often in the details – and as always, it’s sometimes best to let certain details emerge on their own accord.

All of the above is, believe it or not, a watered-down version of perhaps 25% of what’s taken place since mid-summer.

Some will notice that are certain topics (names, documents, etc.) that were not touched on much, if at all, up above. There are some obvious “elephant in the room” types of issues, granted. But there’s always a reason for saying (or not saying) something. Boja sie swiatla, nie ciemny…

As stated before, many will not believe, and that’s totally fine with me. I’m just a name on the internet.
Additionally, I’m usually three TZ’s separated from unc, and sometimes a full 12 hours away. So yeah, don’t believe.

The several people that they really need to worry about are much, much closer.

Be patient, and Happy Holidays.

Isn’t spooky Halloween soon?...

WOW! That post IS spooky!

 

[JPScott]

-- It has been mentioned earlier on the boards about a “general atmosphere that points to severe punishment”. This remains accurate, and has only grown stronger over the past month. There are numerous people who comprise the “pool” from which the eventual Committee on Infractions will be chosen (for UNC’s specific case). Fact: UNC has put out feelers to see if they can “stack the jury”, so to speak. Fact: Certain NCAA employees have (literally) laughed at this effort, going so far as to tell jokes (in private, of course) about those efforts. (once again… those previous statements are ones that I state as clear facts)

Regardless of those ill-intended efforts… some of the COI “pool” have received documentation (official, not rival-submitted) on the breadth of the scandal (including, but not limited to, numerous portions of the NOA’s supporting documentation that UNC redacted from its release), and a “rough draft” of potential penalties have been bandied about, off-the-record.

Some of those rumors have filtered back to Chapel Hill. Word from INSIDE THE SCHOOL is that reality may be finally setting in at the upper levels.

This is a sobering assessment of how violations and penalties are assessed in the world of the NCAA. It has little to do with objectively assessing the facts by an independent panel of peers and determining penalties based on an established scale set by precedent.

Instead it seems to have everything to do with how much political pull a school has, how well a school can 'stack the deck' at a given moment, and what sort of back-room deals can be set up.

Given that, is it any wonder why people have been complaining for literally decades about the wildly inconsistent rulings (and oftentimes non-rulings) which are made by this organization, along with the constant claims of favoritism toward certain schools and vindictiveness towards others?

Having said that, it does appear hopeful that UNC will finally be required to pay for their crimes. Although frankly their wrong-doing has been so broad and wide-ranging (most of which hasn't even been addressed by Wainstein's report or the various self-investigations) and has gone on for so long that I don't know if there's a hammer big enough to give them the punishment they truly deserve.

 

[Xception]

Has UNC's length and severity of cheating worked them out of the clique ?

 

[JPScott]

Has UNC's length and severity of cheating worked them out of the clique ?

Perhaps so. From Manilishi's post:

Due to the ever-growing duration and breadth of the scandal, there are some undeniable signs that UNC’s political allies are becoming fewer and fewer. Some have left the fight due to frustrations from being kept in the dark or outright deceived by UNC’s leaders (both named and unnamed). Not smart on the university’s part; they have miscalculated their power-play moves numerous times over the past few years.

Some allies, however, have begun to distance themselves so that when the proverbial stuff hits the fan, they are well out of the splatter zone. There is a LOT that still hasn’t come out that spans more than just athletics (and it most likely never will come out) – but some of these politicians apparently don’t want to take any chances.

The end result is a loss of allies, and thus leverage, on UNC’s part.​

If that's true, then it validates my suggestion at the very beginning of the scandal that UNC's best course of action would have been to own up to the cheating, clean house from top to bottom, release the transcripts to the NCAA, and take their lumps.

If they had done so they would rightly have been punished but it most likely wouldn't have been as harsh as they deserved given their (at the time) favorable standing amongst their peers, and by this time whatever damage would already be done and they'd be building to a brighter future.

Instead they've prolonged the scandal, which has only led to more and more information being uncovered, while at the same time they've been alienating and making fools of whatever allies they might have had (whether within education, politics or the press).

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

Wow, I'm shocked JP. Shocked I tell you. I thought you were all about "facts" and precise statements? You're talking about how there was this big drop-off of AFAM majors after 2009. So, in an attempt to let you save some kind of face, please quantify how big of a drop-off we're talking about. Heck, since you're so good at finding the "facts", why don't you tell us the actual number of AFAM majors during Roy's tenure at UNC. Finally, after you tell us the numbers, when did Roy say he had his meeting with the assistant telling him he didn't like that so many were majoring in AFAM?

Also, I seriously doubt you want to start saying athletes clustering = signs of academic fraud. Surely I misread you on this, right?

Bump.

Still waiting for those numbers.

 

[UK till Death]

Bump.

Still waiting for those numbers.

Shut up, stupid.

 

[bigbluehomer]

Bump.

Still waiting for those numbers.

We appreciate your patience, just keep waiting.

 

[RipThru]

Bump.

Still waiting for those numbers.

Why is it you keep running over here to see what this board has to say about UNCheat? Is it low self esteem? If you so firmly believe your cheating Heels are innocent, then why bother?

 

[preacherfan]

We appreciate your patience, just keep waiting.

 

[Xception]

Threads are briefly strange when a moron is on ignore .

 

[preacherfan]

Threads are briefly strange when a moron is on ignore .

I put a poster on ignore and then kept un-ignoring him just to read his posts based on the responses. The one advantage was that I didn't see any of his stupid and uninformed replies to my posts. That was worth it!

 

[KMKAT]

That post was promising.

Based on the ongoings of that note Mark posted, would it be safe to say that what's coming is going to shock each and every one of us from what was initially expected?

Now, for Bobby to keep returning tells me he's got nothing to discuss on their board, because there is nothing being bantered about. He is getting what little information he can get from interested parties here, and to say he and that other poster who keeps blessing us with his responses have concerns far beyond what they'll admit.

The NCAA can only go down one path here to show strength in their authority; UNC has to be branded as the sheisters they are, allow previous students another shot at a 'real' education, and take their Jordans and generate a mass exodus of those currently trying to defend their culture.

Roy better enjoy life on the court this year; his antics sure sound like they've run their last race.

 

[KyFaninNC]

Now, for Bobby to keep returning tells me he's got nothing to discuss on their board, because there is nothing being bantered about.

The gestapo over at THR will not let this subject be talked about, even from UNC fans. Mike Irby and the village idiot, heelbent, rule that board like Hitler's gestapo.

 

[kybassfan]

Just from the recent posts, I'm guessing that Bobbi pickle perv or whatever his name was is back. They must have gotten some bad rumors if he's returned to fail at damage control. Again.

The google challenged poster of 1000 irrelevant questions. I hope he comes back after they gut INC. I'll take him off ignore then.

 

[420grover]

Here's your list of AFAM majors under Roy Williams.
2004- 5: Sean May, Jackie Manuel, David Noel, Jawad Williams, Melvin Scott
2005- 7: Sean May, Jackie Manuel, David Noel, Jawad Williams, Melvin Scott, Reyshawn Terry, Marvin Williams
2006- 3: Reyshawn Terry, Quentin Thomas, David Noel
2007- 3: Quentin Thomas, Mike Copeland, Reyshawn Terry
2008- 2: Mike Copeland, Quentin Thomas
2009- 1: Mike Copeland

 

[hotelblue]

measly 17 pages.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

We've learned a lot from these scandals. We've learned that

1. that whores are a hot topic which is ironic, as many dress like they shop there.

2. UNC with their fake classes and all can't count so having over 17 pages would just get them lost.

 

[catlanta33]

Williams, like other coaches, has faced questions about how much he knew about the paper classes, and when he knew about them. When he arrived at UNC, five of his 15 players were majoring in AFAM. The next season, in 2004-05, 10 of his players majored in AFAM.

He told Wainstein that after that season, which ended with a national championship, he spoke with Joe Holladay, the assistant coach who monitored the team's academics, and expressed concerns about clustering. Williams shared that story again on Friday.

“I went to coach Holladay and I talked about, let's make sure we don't push anybody any direction – let's make sure we allow kids to choose their own major,” Williams said. “I didn't like the fact that we had so many guys in the same major. I didn't think it made sense.”

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article10107071.html#storylink=cpy

 

[preacherfan]

Williams, like other coaches, has faced questions about how much he knew about the paper classes, and when he knew about them. When he arrived at UNC, five of his 15 players were majoring in AFAM. The next season, in 2004-05, 10 of his players majored in AFAM.

He told Wainstein that after that season, which ended with a national championship, he spoke with Joe Holladay, the assistant coach who monitored the team's academics, and expressed concerns about clustering. Williams shared that story again on Friday.

“I went to coach Holladay and I talked about, let's make sure we don't push anybody any direction – let's make sure we allow kids to choose their own major,” Williams said. “I didn't like the fact that we had so many guys in the same major. I didn't think it made sense.”

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/acc/unc/article10107071.html#storylink=cpy

Just on the surface, I have to ask why he talked to an assistant and not Walden directly since it was Walden's job to make sure the players stayed eligible?

If the coaches were not already pushing players into AFAM, why did he have to tell the assistant to make sure we don't do that?

Sorry but his explanation makes as much sense as the navy putting a screen door on a submarine.

 

[jarms24]

Bump.

Still waiting for those numbers.

Or why don't you tell us, dumbass?

Even better, why don't you stop being an agitator, since a punishment for UNC is imminent, which signifies that they're GUILTY! Maybe you should go present your "Facts" to the COI. Or sell them some shoes. Whichever.

 

[stenchymouse]

I'll say this...

If UNC and UofL are able to keep their banner's, it seems that it may be worth rolling the dice and cheating.

If banner's coming down is off the table, then I don't really see anything to discourage cheating.

You can rebuild so quickly in basketball because it literally only takes one class to bring a program back.

 

[Xception]

It's ok to cheat , just don't come in second or worse .

 

[Bodvar Bjarki]

I still get a kick out of UNC trying to pawn all their problems off on the women's basketball team. Like anyone on earth is going to believe their massive cheating scandal was created for the women's program. You have to hand it to them, they have absolutely no conscience when it comes to lying and cheating. Like they think they are entitled to it.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

Or why don't you tell us, dumbass?

Even better, why don't you stop being an agitator, since a punishment for UNC is imminent, which signifies that they're GUILTY! Maybe you should go present your "Facts" to the COI. Or sell them some shoes. Whichever.

The numbers were posted like 3 posts up from your post asking for them.

I will wait for JP to explain what he meant when he was talking about the big drop-off after 09 (when, as we can now all see, AFAM majors went from 1 to 0). I will also wait for him to answer the other questions.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

Here's your list of AFAM majors under Roy Williams.
2004- 5: Sean May, Jackie Manuel, David Noel, Jawad Williams, Melvin Scott
2005- 7: Sean May, Jackie Manuel, David Noel, Jawad Williams, Melvin Scott, Reyshawn Terry, Marvin Williams
2006- 3: Reyshawn Terry, Quentin Thomas, David Noel
2007- 3: Quentin Thomas, Mike Copeland, Reyshawn Terry
2008- 2: Mike Copeland, Quentin Thomas
2009- 1: Mike Copeland

Thanks.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

afam isn't the only major.... and its B.S. that of all these investigations, Afam is the only one reported when others have shown such a clear light on the other two majors .....

 

[Xception]

UNC's scandal gets hidden under one large cheating umbrella , let's not forget that there are thousands of violations . Each grade given or player in bogus courses is a violation unto itself , that doesn't even count the peripheral violations of cars etc.... UNC was already on probation in football and stuff didn't get cleaned up after that , so we have a repeat offender . Let me repeat that , UNC is a repeat offender and will not get first time offender status . That's huge in the penalty phase , if the NCAA wants to they can see that UNC never had any intentions of stopping the corruption at their school .

 

[westerncat]

Wonder when the NCAA will make a ruling on UNC***? They have had enough time to follow up on everything.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

UNC keeps adding stuff... pushing back the time frame. Its obviously an attempt to delay the decision until after the NCAA Tournament where they feel this year could be their year.

 

[westerncat]

They should be banned from NCAA Tournament this year !

 

[topps coach]

Didn't they switch the clustering to communication major.Different title same thing

 

[UK till Death]

UNC keeps adding stuff... pushing back the time frame. Its obviously an attempt to delay the decision until after the NCAA Tournament where they feel this year could be their year.

Yep, they are truly the scum of the earth.

"Finding" more violations in their stupid soccer program or something to delay their punishment.

Scumbags. Lower than whale shit.

 

[preacherfan]

Thanks.

That list was on declared majors and didn't address the issue of AFAM classes. Looking at the chart of mbb enrollments, players were still taking AFAM at alarming numbers until the 08-09 season rolled around.

Bump.

Still waiting for those numbers.

To ask for AFAM majors is misleading for a number of reasons. Players often have an undeclared major or may have a major in in something like communications and then switch to AFAM. Sean May did this when he found out that AFAM majors didn't have real classes. (There are other reasons as well but anyone who went to college would know what those are.)

A more accurate assessment is number of enrollments in AFAM. Looking at the chart provided in one article, MBB enrollments did drop after 07 but were still significant in 08. So, I am not sure what you point is?

As for Roy, he first claimed that players changed their interest and quit majoring in AFAM on their own. He later said that he was the one who initiated concerns about AFAM. So, you tell me....which story is true? Nevermind, I don't think either one is.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

If you want to gripe about AFAM majors then take it up with JP. I'm responding to his post.

 

[martinsm30]

That list was on declared majors and didn't address the issue of AFAM classes. Looking at the chart of mbb enrollments, players were still taking AFAM at alarming numbers until the 08-09 season rolled around.


To ask for AFAM majors is misleading for a number of reasons. Players often have an undeclared major or may have a major in in something like communications and then switch to AFAM. Sean May did this when he found out that AFAM majors didn't have real classes. (There are other reasons as well but anyone who went to college would know what those are.)

A more accurate assessment is number of enrollments in AFAM. Looking at the chart provided in one article, MBB enrollments did drop after 07 but were still significant in 08. So, I am not sure what you point is?

As for Roy, he first claimed that players changed their interest and quit majoring in AFAM on their own. He later said that he was the one who initiated concerns about AFAM. So, you tell me....which story is true? Nevermind, I don't think either one is.

 

[BBUK]

You didn't use words, it does not count.

 

[BobbyG_tickle_swerv]

You didn't use words, it does not count.

It's also not correct. This was pointed out on packpride (go figure right), but it was quickly ignored. Good try though. At least when I post I stick to facts.

 

[martinsm30]

You didn't use words, it does not count.

The dark color are the fake "organized" classes and the light color is for fake independent study courses that were used to keep fake student athletes who played basketball at UNC*** eligible. Pictured across the top of the chart are the bogus final fours and championships these fake student athletes participated in or won. The bottom are the semesters the fake classes were used for eligibility.

Waiting for Brad's reply which I will ignore since his arguments make no sense what so ever.

 

[preacherfan]

There is a nice chart on page 50 of the KW report in which we can see the enrollments of bball compared to other sports.

It is very clear that there was a shift away from AFAM due to Dean Owen's intervention and pressure on Crowder. It is also clear that FB decided to keep going in the scam but men's bball made the decision to pull away.

In other words, the drop in men's bball out of AFAM wasn't really attributable to Roy but to a move in the whole sports department to get away from obvious trouble. If the drop in MBB enrollments was due to Roy's concerns, why did other sports also drop so dramatically? (See next post for KW comments)

 

[preacherfan]

bobby got me to doing some research.....this is from the Wainstein report, page 50:

We examined the fluctuations in student-athlete enrollment specifically to determine if we would find any evidence that the sports programs ever took the initiative to limit their players’ use of the paper classes. For example, a number of commentators have questioned whether the drop-off in men’s basketball enrollments in the middle of the last decade was due to a policy change by the new coaching or ASPSA basketball staff. It appears, however, that the fluctuations are largely attributable to factors extrinsic to the sports teams.

Specifically, as explained above in Section IV.B.9, the mid-decade decline was largely due to Dean Owen’s intervention in 2005-2006 and Crowder’s fear that the spike in popularity of these classes would bring scrutiny to her scheme. The self-policing theory is further weakened by the spike in football and other sports’ enrollments in 2009, which represents the rush to get into the last paper classes before Crowder’s retirement.

As for men’s basketball specifically, there is no downturn in enrollments in 2005 to suggest that the new coaching staff brought in a new policy disfavoring the paper classes. There is a gradual decline in enrollments starting in 2007 – and no spike right before Crowder’s retirement while football players and other athletes were desperately trying to load up on the last paper classes –