NCAA to Ban Collectives?

[The-Hack]

Looks like the NCAA is taking it’s best shot at collectives.

Will it withstand court scrutiny??

I think it might. A collective is not a business that actually benefits from using an athlete’s NIL. I can see how Paul Miller Ford, Addidas, etc. can make the argument they sell more cars and shoes, but a collective with no other business interests can’t make that same argument.

Task force to big-money boosters: NIL sanctions could be coming - Sports Illustrated

College administrators are finalizing guidelines expected to clarify that boosters and booster-led collectives are prohibited from involvement in recruiting, sources tell SI.

www.si.com

 

[MrHotDice]

Everyone knows it’s all crooked but don’t know how to fix it.

 

[why_not_kentucky]

Get on board or get left behind.

 

[maysvilleky]

NCAA is all bark at this point.

 

[CB3UK]

Like hell they're going to ban one of the best bands of the 90s on my watch!

 

[_ukcat]

If NCAA Ban does occur that when you see P5 conferences finally leave NCAA to form their own Governing Body

 

[megablue]

If NCAA Ban does occur that when you see P5 conferences finally leave NCAA to form their own Governing Body

This is probably truer than we all realize.

 

[Kybluedude]

This is probably truer than we all realize.

I have to believe the overwhelming majority of P5 Presidents, ADs and coaches would support administrative guardrails and regs to govern NIL.

 

[Glenn's take]

I put the chances of me ever watching another college basketball game with their current business model at less than 3%. Football probably isn't much behind.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

I have to believe the overwhelming majority of P5 Presidents, ADs and coaches would support administrative guardrails and regs to govern NIL.

I really wish they could do something, but what can they legally do? The court system has ruled against them all the way to the top.

 

[TBCat]

I really wish they could do something, but what can they legally do? The court system has ruled against them all the way to the top.

The courts opened the door for NIL but not like it's being used now. This is clearly an abuse. The courts did not create a system where there are no rules. This can be reigned in but the NCAA has terrible leadership right now.

 

[mrschwump]

The courts opened the door for NIL but not like it's being used now. This is clearly an abuse. The courts did not create a system where there are no rules. This can be reigned in but the NCAA has terrible leadership right now.

Old school NCAA will be dead within a year, P5s will rule the roost. Just what they do to rein in NLI, and they will do something, is TBD.

 

[CardHack]

I have worked under the theory that those parties responsible for fund raising or securing money for endowments for Universities have to be out of their minds pissed at the money seemingly blowing through NIL. Public Universities of course have their Athletic Departments separate from the University...you can see where this is headed to a split of the Power 5 conferences off of the NCAA long theorized.

NIL looks to be the fuse the NCAA can't put out.

 

[JHB4UK]

Ain't nothing getting banned, or punished for doing it, or any limits at all

Horse is out of the barn, toothpaste is out of the tube. Smart intelligent ncaa leadership could have been slowly working this stuff in over the last decade. At rational controlled amounts. But they did nothing instead, and now it is the uncontrolled wild west. While they are at weakest point ever.

These fools can't even punish self admitted cheaters like UL bball or UT-Knoxville. Knoxville fired their coach for cause & ain't paying him because his cheating was so bad, yet doesn't face an ounce of punishments!!!

Anybody holding out hope for Indianapolis to come riding to the rescue really needs to live in reality.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

The courts opened the door for NIL but not like it's being used now. This is clearly an abuse. The courts did not create a system where there are no rules. This can be reigned in but the NCAA has terrible leadership right now.

You giving him too much credit, it's no leadership and hasn't had any for awhile. I really hope you are right and with new leadership or a new organization to oversee athletics can reel this mess back in.

 

[Kybluedude]

It’s a voluntary organization. If you’re a member you would agree to follow agreed upon regulations. The NCAA needs to propose regulations to its members and let them vote to implement some guidelines.

Frankly, their attorneys after losing the court case 9 times should have had drafted regs in place. Or just settled the case.

 

[Soupbean]

If NCAA Ban does occur that when you see P5 conferences finally leave NCAA to form their own Governing Body

The Power 5 are the NCAA, it would be like leaving themselves. The NCAA doesnt run the universities its just the appointed body they put together long ago to goven the rules and guidelines amongst themselves. They can just vote to restructure the NCAA and thus the rules they want members to abide by.

 

[RocknRollCats]

Don't hold your breath...

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

The Power 5 are the NCAA, it would be like leaving themselves. The NCAA doesnt run the universities its just the appointed body they put together long ago to goven the rules and guidelines amongst themselves. They can just vote to restructure the NCAA and thus the rules they want members to abide by.

I don't think all P5 teams will be welcome, most will but there are a few that bring nothing to their conference. I am not sure the Big12 can even be considered a P5 conference anymore.

 

[BluegrassSportsNet]

Anybody who thinks the NCAA gonna do jack shit about collectives is extremely niave.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Looks like the NCAA is taking it’s best shot at collectives.

Will it withstand court scrutiny??

I think it might. A collective is not a business that actually benefits from using an athlete’s NIL. I can see how Paul Miller Ford, Addidas, etc. can make the argument they sell more cars and shoes, but a collective with no other business interests can’t make that same argument.

Task force to big-money boosters: NIL sanctions could be coming - Sports Illustrated

College administrators are finalizing guidelines expected to clarify that boosters and booster-led collectives are prohibited from involvement in recruiting, sources tell SI.

www.si.com

I don't think it will. The lines are too fuzzy and it would interfere with players ability to earn their full value. Then of course you have state laws like Tennessee's which allows for this:


"New Tennessee legislation permits universities to have direct and public relationships with the collectives that pay their athletes for their name, image and likeness.

Last week, Gov. Bill Lee signed an amendment to the state law that will allow college coaches to attend NIL events, universities to fundraise for NIL collectives and NIL representatives to make presentations on campus to recruits and players."

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

The courts opened the door for NIL but not like it's being used now. This is clearly an abuse. The courts did not create a system where there are no rules. This can be reigned in but the NCAA has terrible leadership right now.

How can it be reigned in?

 

[Soupbean]

I don't think all P5 teams will be welcome, most will but there are a few that bring nothing to their conference. I am not sure the Big12 can even be considered a P5 conference anymore.

No I understand that Grump, my point was that the NCAA IS already just an arm of the conferences and its members so they can change the NCAA and thereby the rules anytime they want to, dont need to "leave" to do that. Some think the NCAA is some govt agency that runs college athletics (and I can somewhat see that because they've let themselves come to look at act that way). The members started the NCAA to run themselves.

But my point only works if all of the member agree to stay together and make the changes. If only certain conferences wanted to break off and start their own leagues thats a different story and they'd have to create in affect their own NCAA from scratch.

 

[BluegrassSportsNet]

I don't think all P5 teams will be welcome, most will but there are a few that bring nothing to their conference. I am not sure the Big12 can even be considered a P5 conference anymore.

Yeah half of those ACC and big ten schools are flat garbage. Between Indiana, Illinois, northwestern, Nebraska, Rutgers, Maryland, Louisville, Syracuse, Boston College, and Duke that’s a whole lot of stink.

 

[SPECT imaging]

Looks like the NCAA is taking it’s best shot at collectives.

Will it withstand court scrutiny??

I think it might. A collective is not a business that actually benefits from using an athlete’s NIL. I can see how Paul Miller Ford, Addidas, etc. can make the argument they sell more cars and shoes, but a collective with no other business interests can’t make that same argument.

Task force to big-money boosters: NIL sanctions could be coming - Sports Illustrated

College administrators are finalizing guidelines expected to clarify that boosters and booster-led collectives are prohibited from involvement in recruiting, sources tell SI.

www.si.com

As things stand now, the new NIL rules are dangerous because they were introduced as a compromise reaction to a litigation. The NIL industry is already way out of control, and will inevitably damage the average fan's interest in college sports over time as normal people realize the sleaze and scandal potential. Banning collectives would be the first and most obvious step in damage control.

Whether such a ban would stand up to civil litigation depends on the judge. But a ban on collectives would not seem to interfere with compliance with prior court rulings. If the NCAA cannot take this kind of a basic step to exert some reasonable control over NIL, then college athletics will run into new problems with the TV networks and the pro leagues that have not even been thought out yet. If fans begin to lose interest, then college sports would lose some of their negotiating leverage with the networks. And if the pro leagues and their players associations rescind their requirements for high school athletes to wait a certain number of years before being draft eligible, then a lot of players currently receiving NIL benefits will just bypass college and go straight to the pros. It would not take too long before the financial hit to college athletics departments would change everything. Especially for the SEC, which enjoys huge financial and network advantages now.

 

[SPECT imaging]

I put the chances of me ever watching another college basketball game with their current business model at less than 3%. Football probably isn't much behind.

I suspect a whole lot of other people will feel the same way as you, whether or not they fully realize it yet. When the pro leagues realize the new potential to gain market share, their players associations will rescind their requirements for high school athletes to wait for a specified period of time after high school graduation in order to apply for the pro draft. It would be as simple as a compromise in the next set of CBA negotiations. If anyone doubts that the NBA can absorb all those young players, just wait until the reinvigorated league with broader TV appeal expands into new cities like Jacksonville, Austin, Nashville, Cincinnati, and Louisville. When the Neilson ratings for college sports begin to drop, then the college conferences lose their negotiating leverage with the TV networks. It can happen that way, and it will unless the schools (currently running the NCAA) get some control over NIL, collectives, and whatever else wealthy boosters and local businesses can come up with to stretch the new rules and take control away from the schools. This is about survival of college athletics. Regardless of the collateral issues, normal people can and will lose interest once their favorite college team is viewed as a minor league pro team paid for by wealthy boosters and less closely managed by their favorite college.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

They really can't make rules against them. What would the rule say? How would it survive a legal challenge? Even if it did, it would take a legit army of people to actually investigate and enforce said rule.

It sucks but fans just have to be patient. The market itself will be what corrects the current runaway train. Spend a few millions on a kid that turns out to be a busy or gets badly injured; and it won't take very long for the market to start heavily cooling off.

We just have to hope the sport can survive that long.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

As things stand now, the new NIL rules are dangerous because they were introduced as a compromise reaction to a litigation. The NIL industry is already way out of control, and will inevitably damage the average fan's interest in college sports over time as normal people realize the sleaze and scandal potential. Banning collectives would be the first and most obvious step in damage control.

Whether such a ban would stand up to civil litigation depends on the judge. But a ban on collectives would not seem to interfere with compliance with prior court rulings. If the NCAA cannot take this kind of a basic step to exert some reasonable control over NIL, then college athletics will run into new problems with the TV networks and the pro leagues that have not even been thought out yet. If fans begin to lose interest, then college sports would lose some of their negotiating leverage with the networks. And if the pro leagues and their players associations rescind their requirements for high school athletes to wait a certain number of years before being draft eligible, then a lot of players currently receiving NIL benefits will just bypass college and go straight to the pros. It would not take too long before the financial hit to college athletics departments would change everything. Especially for the SEC, which enjoys huge financial and network advantages now.

Ok, I'll ask you the same thing. Tennessee has a law that specifically allows for collectives and even for the collectives to meet recruits on campus. Then of course, who gets to decide what is a valid "collective" and what isn't. I could go on and on but there is no way for the NCAA to do this.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I suspect a whole lot of other people will feel the same way as you, whether or not they fully realize it yet. When the pro leagues realize the new potential to gain market share, their players associations will rescind their requirements for high school athletes to wait for a specified period of time after high school graduation in order to apply for the pro draft. It would be as simple as a compromise in the next set of CBA negotiations. If anyone doubts that the NBA can absorb all those young players, just wait until the reinvigorated league with broader TV appeal expands into new cities like Jacksonville, Austin, Nashville, Cincinnati, and Louisville. When the Neilson ratings for college sports begin to drop, then the college conferences lose their negotiating leverage with the TV networks. It can happen that way, and it will unless the schools (currently running the NCAA) get some control over NIL, collectives, and whatever else wealthy boosters and local businesses can come up with to stretch the new rules and take control away from the schools. This is about survival of college athletics. Regardless of the collateral issues, normal people can and will lose interest once their favorite college team is viewed as a minor league pro team paid for by wealthy boosters and less closely managed by their favorite college.

It is a benefit to the players in the association to keep young blood out of their league as long as possible. For every new player someone else becomes a former player and it isn't always the last guy on the bench.

 

[TBCat]

Ok, I'll ask you the same thing. Tennessee has a law that specifically allows for collectives and even for the collectives to meet recruits on campus. Then of course, who gets to decide what is a valid "collective" and what isn't. I could go on and on but there is no way for the NCAA to do this.

I think the NCAA can absolutely define what a legit collective is. For starters really not any of them are legit because they are not traditional businesses that have a vested interest. Collectives are essentially slush funds. What's the legit use for the University to have basically a bill dollar slush fund whose sole purpose is to bribe players. If that can't survive a court challenge then what can. Why can't the state of Tennessee just start making other laws regarding rules such as eligibility and so on. If the NCAA can make no rules whatsoever then college sports will die out totally.

The NCAA was abusing the players rights and the courts rightfully reigned them in. There is no evidence that the intent of the ruling was to completely dismantle all rules entirely. The courts slapped the NCAA down for going too far. Now it's the NIL slush founds that are going too far.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I think the NCAA can absolutely define what a legit collective is. For starters really not any of them are legit because they are not traditional businesses that have a vested interest. Collectives are essentially slush funds. What's the legit use for the University to have basically a bill dollar slush fund whose sole purpose is to bribe players. If that can't survive a court challenge then what can. Why can't the state of Tennessee just start making other laws regarding rules such as eligibility and so on. If the NCAA can make no rules whatsoever then college sports will die out totally.

The NCAA was abusing the players rights and the courts rightfully reigned them in. There is no evidence that the intent of the ruling was to completely dismantle all rules entirely. The courts slapped the NCAA down for going too far. Now it's the NIL slush founds that are going too far.

Tennessee wrote that law recently and by design. They aren't changing it. Who says NIL payments must come from a "legitimate" business. If I want to pay CRod to go on social media and say what a great guy I am, who is to say that isn't legitimate? Lawsuits against schools for arbitrary and capricious limitations on earnings is coming soon.

Yes, college sports are going to die. The love of money ruins everything it touches.

 

[satcheluk]

Tennessee wrote that law recently and by design. They aren't changing it. Who says NIL payments must come from a "legitimate" business. If I want to pay CRod to go on social media and say what a great guy I am, who is to say that isn't legitimate? Lawsuits against schools for arbitrary and capricious limitations on earnings is coming soon.

Yes, college sports are going to die. The love of money ruins everything it touches.

The NCAA is a voluntary association. They can make rules that limit what the organizations do, as long as they don’t infringe on the rights of the individuals who play, but have no collective bargaining power. If the NCAA makes a rule that prohibits recruiting collectives, then UT will have to make a decision on whether or not they wish to follow the rules or not. If enough schools decide they want to rebel like UT, then they can secede and form a new association, but I seriously doubt that will happen anytime soon.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

The NCAA is a voluntary association. They can make rules that limit what the organizations do, as long as they don’t infringe on the rights of the individuals who play, but have no collective bargaining power. If the NCAA makes a rule that prohibits recruiting collectives, then UT will have to make a decision on whether or not they wish to follow the rules or not. If enough schools decide they want to rebel like UT, then they can secede and form a new association, but I seriously doubt that will happen anytime soon.

I think you're in lala land here. So tell me, what is a recruiting collective?

 

[satcheluk]

I think you're in lala land here. So tell me, what is a recruiting collective?

Not sure how you define lala land, but the NCAA can outlaw recruiting slush funds. They can do just about anything that creates rules that limit what the institutions can do, since the institutions empower the NCAA to do that. The NCAA has less agency over the individual students due to SOTUS ruling. It’s similar to the commissioner in pro sports leagues. The teams voluntarily cede control in order to have some semblance of a level playing field because they know without it there’s chaos, which is what is beginning to develop now.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Not sure how you define lala land, but the NCAA can outlaw recruiting slush funds. They can do just about anything that creates rules that limit what the institutions can do, since the institutions empower the NCAA to do that. The NCAA has less agency over the individual students due to SOTUS ruling. It’s similar to the commissioner in pro sports leagues. The teams voluntarily cede control in order to have some semblance of a level playing field because they know without it there’s chaos, which is what is beginning to develop now.

I meant nothing offensive. The simple fact of the matter is they cannot create just any rule they want if that rule ultimately impacts a players ability to maximize his or her value. But let's go on your premise. How do you define "recruiting slush fund"?

 

[The-Hack]

How do you define "recruiting slush fund"?

I’ll give this a shot: An illegal “collective” can be defined as “an entity with no sales or actual business, formed solely as a conduit of money to prospective athletes”

Still, it’ll be tough. Simply form a collective for funneling money, and print and sell a few thousand tee shirts at a loss (or a profit), and now your collective is a business like Paul Miller Ford.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I’ll give this a shot: An illegal “collective” can be defined as “an entity with no sales or actual business, formed solely as a conduit of money to prospective athletes”

Still, it’ll be tough. Simply form a collective for funneling money, and print and sell a few thousand tee shirts at a loss (or a profit), and now your collective is a business like Paul Miller Ford.

Yes, thats my point. All these collectives will have solid attorneys behind them. No matter how the NCAA tries to corner them it will be like catching an eel with 1 hand. To make matters worse, I fully expect more states to enact a law like Tennessee's which would become a dangerous pissing contest I dont think the NCAA has the balls for.

 

[TBCat]

Tennessee wrote that law recently and by design. They aren't changing it. Who says NIL payments must come from a "legitimate" business. If I want to pay CRod to go on social media and say what a great guy I am, who is to say that isn't legitimate? Lawsuits against schools for arbitrary and capricious limitations on earnings is coming soon.

Yes, college sports are going to die. The love of money ruins everything it touches.

So can Tennessee write a law giving college players in their state 10 years of eligibility? The NCAA is still the governing body. I don't see the Tennessee law holding up in a challenge. The NCAA is still a private organization that has the right to govern their own organization. Their powers aren't absolute but they also don't take a back seat to collectives.

There is nothing arbitrary or capricious about having rules. You can absolutely define a difference between a company such as Paul Miller Ford wanting to pay a player as a spokes man and a collective that isn't really even marketing a product paying a recruit that isn't even on campus yet for, well rendering basically no services at all. One is a paid endorsement and the other is a bribe. Courts have never had an issue with defining that difference. I don't see the courts rejecting the NCAA at all in cleaning up the mess. The only question is does the NCAA have the leadership necessary to do it.

 

[satcheluk]

I meant nothing offensive. The simple fact of the matter is they cannot create just any rule they want if that rule ultimately impacts a players ability to maximize his or her value. But let's go on your premise. How do you define "recruiting slush fund"?

I took no offense. I define it as what the collectives are as a practical matter. They are a group of school boosters that pool their money together in order to distribute to the players in exchange for playing at a particular institution. I am admittedly not an attorney, but I have stayed a Holiday Inns occasionally, and the way I read the ruling was that the NCAA could not prohibit players from selling their NIL to business who wish to engage them. These collectives, since they are funded with pooled booster money, are effectively extensions of the schools, so basically an end around of the prohibition of pay for play, which is outlawed by NCAA regs and was not struck down, to my knowledge, by the SCOTUS ruling. The NCAA has reaffirmed that this against the rules, though I suspect their attorneys are going over the SCOTUS ruling and collating precedent cases to further strengthen their position and I would expect them to release a solid confirmation statement before the season begins. It’s possible the one or some of the collectives will then sue and it will be up to a judge to allow the prohibition to stand until the trial or issue an injunction allowing the opposite.

 

[The-Hack]

I am admittedly not an attorney, but I have stayed a Holiday Inns occasionally,

A damn good post for an occasional night at a Holiday Inn!