Lane Kiffin-NIL

[hmt5000]

Ok, do you understand how little money that is? There are 14 schools in the SEC with 85 scholarship football players and 13 scholarship basketball players on each team. How much will be spent on new positions of management and support? How much goes to non-revenue sports? How much were you thinking they should be paid?

Fair market value. Look. the ncaa could of paid students earlier and allowed them to make money off ncaa royalty deals but they wanted to keep all the money. Now its gone to court and this is what the Judge has ruled is legal. In America we have a minimum wage but I never thought I'd see people argue for a maximum wage especially when that wage has many of these kids in poverty. If someone is willing to pay a kid to play at their school than they deserve that money. That is a free market economy.

 

[hmt5000]

I'm not arguing that players shouldn't be able to make NIL money, although I think it needs to be regulated so schools can't essentially pay players to attend their school. I'm arguing that a coach and a college player are two completely different situations. A coach is a paid employee. Students are not. Sports are extra curricular activities for students. Students participate in college sports on a voluntary basis knowing the rules ahead of time. If it wasn't worth it to participate, they wouldn't do it, meaning if they weren't getting something of great value from participating, they would play some where else, or not play at all. No one forces them to participate. They choose to participate because they believe they get something of value from doing it.

OK, but you need to realize players aren't the same as years back. We just saw a movie of college kids refusing to play bowl season without pay. Players see how much money is floating around the sport and they get money for school and practice but nothing to live on and nothing for their families. This was coming one way or the other and now their is a judgement that what the ncaa was doing was illegal.

If schools collude to keep pay down that is also illegal. that is technically the ncaa acting like a cartel. The ncaa should of formed a plan when Ed Obannon won his lawsuit against them.

 

[hmt5000]

I would concur some smaller schools will probably not survive as the resources center more towards bigger schools And some football programs will fold….but can’t we argue this is just a market behavior?

ivd often argued in Tn why we need not just Tennessee and vsndy. But also Etsu, Memphis ,Austin peay, Tennessee Martin , Tennessee Chattanooga, Tennessee state, Tennessee tech and MTSU

I guess the question is do we need all of them and yes kids getting schollies will miss those opportunities to go to college for free. But I’d thr demand isn’t there…isn’t that just the way it is?

When Title 9 passed I told my dad that most colleges would have to cut all sports but football and basketball and womens volleyball, softball and golf to keep the #s even. Even at that, most colleges will run at a loss. It took longer than I thought but the nil is what is finally gonna take down the charade of the ncaa.

 

[hmt5000]

As long as the kind of money is being made off college football that is being made, the players should absolutely get a cut. But the money will dry up if the fans lose interest. It remains to be seen if the fans lose interest in seeing basically semi-pro players that aren't really that relatable to the schools they are playing for.

Like free agency in pro sports. Some people feel it didn't hurt but I know people that quit watching because a rival player went to the enemy and they couldn't pretend that it was "we" anymore.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Fair market value. Look. the ncaa could of paid students earlier and allowed them to make money off ncaa royalty deals but they wanted to keep all the money. Now its gone to court and this is what the Judge has ruled is legal. In America we have a minimum wage but I never thought I'd see people argue for a maximum wage especially when that wage has many of these kids in poverty. If someone is willing to pay a kid to play at their school than they deserve that money. That is a free market economy.

Paying kids directly is illegal. No, SCOTUS didn't rule that. Do you even know what you're talking about?

 

[hmt5000]

Paying kids directly is illegal. No, SCOTUS didn't rule that. Do you even know what you're talking about?

Yea. I read the ruling. have you? Players are able to make money off their name and likeness. The ncaa can tell coaches and schools they can't pay directly but fans are going to pay because they are fans. The ncaa is to blame for that lawsuit and the fallout is 100% on them. We are going to go to p5 being the haves and every other college being the have nots.

Did you have a job in hs? was it illegal? Why do people have it in their head that college athletes just aren't allowed to make money? Truly is amazing. I'll bet you $1000 it isn't illegal to pay someone money.

 

[The-Hack]

I have no interest in it. College sports are supposed to mean something more than hired mercenaries. Its absurd.

I agree with the gist of your post, but having known how we built and sustained our programs (especially basketball, but football too) we have generally relied on paid mercenaries for decades.

I would seriously bet that neither men’s basketball or football has had a national champion build on true amateurism since the 19th Century.

 

[The-Hack]

We are going to go to p5 being the haves and every other college being the have nots.

Going there?

We’ve been there since “every other college” was called “mid-major,” or “minor,” and the P5 were called “major” conferences.

Ironically, the first year of NIL seems to be going against your prediction: a G5 program got two Top 100 players for the first time ever (among all G5 programs).

 

[OFortuna]

I agree with the gist of your post, but having known how we built and sustained our programs (especially basketball, but football too) we have generally relied on paid mercenaries for decades.

I would seriously bet that neither men’s basketball or football has had a national champion build on true amateurism since the 19th Century.

Which raises the question, "Why complicate things with any affiliation with a university?" Why create sham obstacles like required attendance and grades and limits on practice time for people whose aspiration is to hone their craft and play a sport professionally? Why not treat it for what it is, and apparently has been, and create a minor/semi-pro league for the uber talented? A university could attach its name to a team as a sponsor if it wanted, even lease its facilities for p.r. and income purposes, but without becoming embroiled in most of the liabilities and expenses of operating a program. Talented guys who wanted to go to class could still enroll just like any other student. Others whose interests and/or abilities keep them from pursuing "big time" football could seek out more "amateur" college opportunities that still exist where it's all a little less a big business and the pressures to win at all costs are at least somewhat diminished.

 

[K_TIME]

Which raises the question, "Why complicate things with any affiliation with a university?" Why create sham obstacles like required attendance and grades and limits on practice time for people whose aspiration is to hone their craft and play a sport professionally? Why not treat it for what it is, and apparently has been, and create a minor/semi-pro league for the uber talented? A university could attach its name to a team as a sponsor if it wanted, even lease its facilities for p.r. and income purposes, but without becoming embroiled in most of the liabilities and expenses of operating a program. Talented guys who wanted to go to class could still enroll just like any other student. Others whose interests and/or abilities keep them from pursuing "big time" football could seek out more "amateur" college opportunities that still exist where it's all a little less a big business and the pressures to win at all costs are at least somewhat diminished.

Well the big issue is fanbase ties itself to the university and not a random semi pro team. I’m not going to support the Lexington legends baseball (or even football/basketball) squad. I identify with university of Kentucky wildcats and there is long standing tradition for many

I’m a fan of Wandale Robinson because he played for my team and was amazing. When he went to Nebraska I never watched a snap and if he played for semi pro Lexington legends is probably not bother to watch. I get it’s sort of a shell game with private NIL deals but the eyeballs draw rhe TV deals, fans fill up stadiums and those are companies want to sale to those people to generate the revenue that everyone wants a piece of that pie

I just don’t see a way to pull this from the colleges and not lose a substantial portion of interest in any product

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I agree with the gist of your post, but having known how we built and sustained our programs (especially basketball, but football too) we have generally relied on paid mercenaries for decades.

I would seriously bet that neither men’s basketball or football has had a national champion build on true amateurism since the 19th Century.

True but I was inferring more with the word mercenary. To me that also means a lack of connection and importance. Those 2 things are deeply valued in college sports.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Which raises the question, "Why complicate things with any affiliation with a university?" Why create sham obstacles like required attendance and grades and limits on practice time for people whose aspiration is to hone their craft and play a sport professionally? Why not treat it for what it is, and apparently has been, and create a minor/semi-pro league for the uber talented? A university could attach its name to a team as a sponsor if it wanted, even lease its facilities for p.r. and income purposes, but without becoming embroiled in most of the liabilities and expenses of operating a program. Talented guys who wanted to go to class could still enroll just like any other student. Others whose interests and/or abilities keep them from pursuing "big time" football could seek out more "amateur" college opportunities that still exist where it's all a little less a big business and the pressures to win at all costs are at least somewhat diminished.

Ever heard the phrase "the ties that bind"?

 

[OFortuna]

Ever heard the phrase "the ties that bind"?

Of course. But as player connections to a team become more transient and businesslike (mercenary?) it becomes more and more difficult to call it something it isn't, or see it as representing something larger than itself, which can leave those ties a little frayed around the edges.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Of course. But as player connections to a team become more transient and businesslike (mercenary?) it becomes more and more difficult to call it something it isn't, or see it as representing something larger than itself, which can leave those ties a little frayed around the edges.

Yes, and the sport will die.

 

[hmt5000]

Going there?

We’ve been there since “every other college” was called “mid-major,” or “minor,” and the P5 were called “major” conferences.

Ironically, the first year of NIL seems to be going against your prediction: a G5 program got two Top 100 players for the first time ever (among all G5 programs).

Yea. we'll see how that plays out. Deion has money. He'll get a few, but if those guys don't go pro, people will not want to give up millions to make 1000's.

 

[The-Hack]

A university could attach its name to a team as a sponsor if it wanted, even lease its facilities for p.r. and income purposes, but without becoming embroiled in most of the liabilities and expenses of operating a program.

UK went with a system pretty much identical to the one you describe in 1945/46 with the establishment of the U.K. Athletic Association.

The immediate problem, then, was U.K. wanted to hire a great football coach (Bo McMillan) whose salary demand would exceed the Governor’s salary, and pursuant to state law, no state employee’s salary could exceed the Governor’s salary.

They had to settle for Bear Bryant, but carefully read your hypothesis and compare it to the reality that has existed since the 40’s, and, indeed, since the 40’s, UK has avoided “becoming embroiled in most of the liabilities and expenses of operating a program.”

 

[The-Hack]

But as player connections to a team become more transient and businesslike (mercenary?) it becomes more and more difficult to call it something it isn't, or see it as representing something larger than itself, which can leave those ties a little frayed around the edges.

Sounds like the MLB or NFL.

Yeah, I’ve always liked college sports more, but purely pro teams fill up some real big stadiums where those very ties have been openly “frayed around the edges,” for decades.

 

[The-Hack]

I’m a fan of Wandale Robinson because he played for my team and was amazing.

I just don’t see a way to pull this from the colleges and not lose a substantial portion of interest in any product

These two sentences show the slippery nature of this very topic: you tell the name of a player you admire as a reference to the allure of college football fanship, then express concern separation of the teams from the Universities could cause the loss of “a substantial portion of interest in” the product of college football.

But the very object of your admiration, Wan’ Dale, is entirely a product of the Brave New World of immediate transfers and large NIL deals . . . he had one worth 150K, and might have had more than that (I hope he did), and this BNW is being blamed for “fraying the edges” of traditions of college sports.

 

[K_TIME]

These two sentences show the slippery nature of this very topic: you tell the name of a player you admire as a reference to the allure of college football fanship, then express concern separation of the teams from the Universities could cause the loss of “a substantial portion of interest in” the product of college football.

But the very object of your admiration, Wan’ Dale, is entirely a product of the Brave New World of immediate transfers and large NIL deals . . . he had one worth 150K, and might have had more than that (I hope he did), and this BNW is being blamed for “fraying the edges” of traditions of college sports.

I don't get your point....
I am not going to follow a semi pro team that isn't affiliated with UK....and to be honest most college fans are not as well. You just go follow a NFL team if you're going to follow pro teams. Nobody really is a fan on Triple A baseball...it's the major league team you follow in baseball.

If Wandale transfers in and get a NIL...as long as it si for UK....that is really all that matters to me. I think there are downsides to the NIL concept but it is what it is for now and you either roll with it oe get left behind.

 

[The-Hack]

If Wandale transfers in and get a NIL...as long as it si for UK....that is really all that matters to me.

This is my point: it is ironic that you and I celebrate Robinson’s accomplishments in the very thread we are expressing concern over the slippery slope toward professionalism.

Wan’ Dale’s brief career here was greatly assisted (actually made possible) by two huge changes that are the very impetus for the concerns expressed by us any others in these threads: ease of transfer and NIL.

Is all of this headed toward a divorce from the Universities, and simply, sterile, “minor league football?”

I hope not, but I hope we pull a left tackle from the portal, and I am going to “invest” in the NIL process.

And my overall perspective in multiple threads is that, in reality, NIL has changed very little, as players were paid beneath the table for decades.

 

[OFortuna]

UK went with a system pretty much identical to the one you describe in 1945/46 with the establishment of the U.K. Athletic Association.

The immediate problem, then, was U.K. wanted to hire a great football coach (Bo McMillan) whose salary demand would exceed the Governor’s salary, and pursuant to state law, no state employee’s salary could exceed the Governor’s salary.

They had to settle for Bear Bryant, but carefully read your hypothesis and compare it to the reality that has existed since the 40’s, and, indeed, since the 40’s, UK has avoided “becoming embroiled in most of the liabilities and expenses of operating a program.”

Interesting point you make; one that hadn't occurred to me. Still, the university remains responsible for whatever glory or failure is associated with athletics since the players are deemed "students" and not "employees" -- at least not yet. When the football team is 2-10 nobody is calling for heads to roll in the UKAA. So it remains the university's monkey.

 

[OFortuna]

Sounds like the MLB or NFL.

Yeah, I’ve always liked college sports more, but purely pro teams fill up some real big stadiums where those very ties have been openly “frayed around the edges,” for decades.

As college athletics have become "big time," more and more "like the pro's," they are becoming just that. My problem is, I'm like the guy who finally discovers (admits) his gal has been cheating on him -- something everybody else knew long before. I kept clinging to that image I had of her and wanted her to be, instead of who she had become. So when it finally hits me in the face and I have to deal with it, it's painful.

Yeah I'm a naive old school guy who believed what he was taught growing up about fair play and sportsmanship and the value of good clean competition. So the more it becomes just about the wins and the money and an ethic that affirms "if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'" the less appealing the experience becomes.

I'm not saying it's the end of the world, or of college football, and I'm glad for kids to have an opportunity to earn some money legitimately. As always, it's when the limits get tested and abused that the trouble begins. But if universities want to offer something with a straight face that they can still call "nonprofessional" athletics then they will need to set that direction firmly and soon. With all the money and self interest that's involved, I'm just not sure if that is a realistic expectation.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

OK, but you need to realize players aren't the same as years back. We just saw a movie of college kids refusing to play bowl season without pay. Players see how much money is floating around the sport and they get money for school and practice but nothing to live on and nothing for their families. This was coming one way or the other and now their is a judgement that what the ncaa was doing was illegal.

If schools collude to keep pay down that is also illegal. that is technically the ncaa acting like a cartel. The ncaa should of formed a plan when Ed Obannon won his lawsuit against them.

That's not entirely true, for the athletes anyway. Parents/family are not suppose to get anything other than their child's college paid for, but the athletes get a stipend and almost all of the qualify for Pell grants, which is quite a bit more money than the normal college student has not obligated to some form of college expense.. That isn't saying they shouldn't be getting some revenue for their services, likenesses or whatever. But they weren't performing free either.

 

[Grumpyolddawg]

There is quite a few things that need to be adjusted with the NIL deals. It was supposely not to be an influence on where a kid attends school, but has turned in to be the major factor. Who couldn't see that coming? But many are comparing the new college athlete to professional athletes. They are getting paid but that is all I see similiar. A professional athlete signs a contract for X amount of dollars for X amount of years and is tied to that team for that number of years. In college, he signs with that college and it's a 1 year deal, subject to renewal every year. Those FIL deals may be for a number of years, but if Booster A signs an FIL deal to ensure a player signs with his team of choice for 4 years. Then after 1 year player decides I don't like it here and him and his FIL hit the portal and signs with booster's biggest rival. I can't see how this can work under current rules, it seems to be very poorly thought out.

 

[The-Hack]

But if universities want to offer something with a straight face that they can still call "nonprofessional" athletics then they will need to set that direction firmly and soon. With all the money and self interest that's involved, I'm just not sure if that is a realistic expectation.

If the student athlete is the sole owner of his name, image and likeness, the Universities risk lawsuits for “third party interference with contract,” if they unilaterally set limits upon individual rights for payment.

And as others have suggested, any effort to legitimize University limitations on NIL would likely require an organizational response from the athletes, a.k.a. unionization/collective bargaining.

 

[The-Hack]

Those FIL deals

Why do you call it “FIL” deals?

Ain’t it “NIL?”

 

[sieken]

Why do you call it “FIL” deals?

Ain’t it “NIL?”

Lol! I was getting ready to post the same. He uses both, NIL and FIL. I assumed it's an acronym, I was curious about the name.

 

[RocknRollCats]

Going there?

We’ve been there since “every other college” was called “mid-major,” or “minor,” and the P5 were called “major” conferences.

Ironically, the first year of NIL seems to be going against your prediction: a G5 program got two Top 100 players for the first time ever (among all G5 programs).

It seems to me that those players going to play for Deion State University (as well as the AtM and UT signing classes) are early evidence of the primary point of those of us suggesting that NIL, over the next few years, will be the predominant influence on where the elite HS and transfer portal players choose to play.

The wider the NIL disparity gap between AtM, UT, et. al. (Oregon? Notre Dame? Arkansas? TBD University with mega wealthy alumni who are passionate about CFB) the faster the talent gap between those universities and everyone else will grow.

In the short term, of course, UGA and Bama will compete for NCs. Even those two, if they get left in the dust of NIL underperformance, will only be able to compete for so long with the leftovers from the top 150 NIL deals.

There are just so many NIL repercussions and variables that remain to be sorted out and understood. We are in the midst of the NIL Wild, Wild, West.

For example (just stream of consciousness here),

1. How long before those deep pockets funding the NIL deals start adding performance, non-compete (can't transfer and play for 1 year if you leave our university prior to your 3rd year of college), deal duration, injury & opt-out penalty, academic eligibility, clawback, etc. clauses to the NIL contracts? Why wouldn't they?
2. If the players are, at some point, deemed to be university employees, they may be subject to termination at any time - especially in Work At Will states.
3. Many on this board may disagree, but I firmly believe that OAD has diminished the passion that many UK fans have for UKBB. Heck, I remember in the 80's if I chose to grocery shop during a game (baby at home, had to take advantage of the short lines) that Kroger would have the game playing on the PA system. Practically, every person there reacted to a big play. Truth is, I rarely missed a game in those days even if I had to watch the 11:30 tape-delayed version. NIL and the transfer portal potentially will have that same OAD-diminished fan passion impact on CFB.
4. It's not difficult to imagine the NIL megabrokers successfully seeking to secure game day promotional deals complete with signings, player product kiosks (apparel, bobbleheads, ?), and product placement.
5. At what point do the NIL megabrokers, effectively, become the team owners and managers (see that hot mess that is Auburn football as a point of reference) but with even greater influence than the most egregious examples of booster interference that we see today?
6. For the NIL-elite, that is, the universities with billionaire boosters willing to NIL (yes, let's make it a verb, too) with abandon to build an NC-caliber football program, this question will have no bearing. For the rest of us, however, it will have great bearing. So, to what extent will the diversion of booster dollars directly to the players hamstring programs with respect to future investments in facilities and other program needs?
7. Big differences between the NFL and CFB NIL. At this point, with NIL: no contract caveats or restrictions (see #1 above), no team "salary" caps, University-affiliation (not city), no collective bargaining, no minimum or guaranteed contract level, no consequences for quitting, one year deals, perpetual transfer portal free agency, academic-eligibility requirements, nothing to stop a few teams from using NIL to just buy the very best players (and, of course, coaches) available.

Players deserve to be paid for their contribution to the CFB money machine.
NIL, as implemented, combined with the free agency impact of the transfer portal, is a recipe for the destruction of CFB.
Both can be true.

The poorly considered manner in which NIL was launched, in my opinion, will lead to CFB being owned, not necessarily by the P5 as was suggested earlier, but instead by the uber wealthy program boosters of just a handful of universities.

In the long run (you out there Keynes?), absent the implementation of essential guardrails, NIL will define the future landscape of CFB and the CFB national champions...and most of the country won't care.

 

[The-Hack]

Players deserve to be paid for their contribution to the CFB money machine.

A great post that asks tough questions that will flesh out in the long run.

There are real risks associated with NIL, but the problem with implementing the guardrails will be simple legalities.

If the NCAA or if a University tries to interfere in an individual’s right to profit from his name, and image, that will cause litigation for “third party interference with contract.”

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

The Yankees haven't won a world series in like 13 years with no salary cap. I think it will be alright.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

And Cal, Texas, Michigan, UCLA, USC, Oklahoma State and even Miami. If alumni at these schools wanted to, they could destroy the SEC.

Maybe. But, they may also want their money going toward professional athletics.

 

[sieken]

Maybe. But, they may also want their money going toward professional athletics.

Also could end up being the fracture line. Win, whatever it takes. The other side trying uphold whatever is left of the student athlete. There is something special about college athletics and seeing Sister Jean on the sidelines during a big game and many other stories that fit that mold. Hopefully some of that can be retained at the end of the day.

 

[hmt5000]

The top teams won't be able to buy all the top talent because they can't pay top dollar for player 20 and if we haven't paid anyone big bucks we can go after that 20th guy with more money than Bama can afford to do.

Youll see the stars make out like bandits but the good teams will manage those really good players.