KAT on social justice

[GonzoCat90]

Sure there were pockets of politics. But nothing close to what we see now. Even though it's clear that most people don't want to hear anymore about kneeling, it's front and center every day in the media for weeks now. The media will not LET it drop, because it's an agenda. It's designed to keep people angry, so that they can be pandered to and promised solutions that NEVER materialize.

It wasn't like what we see now because they didn't have 24 hours of TV time to fill and politicians hadn't figured out if you tell people the other side is evil and wants to destroy America that you can get them to do whatever you want and believe everything you say.

And on the same note about not letting it drop, an agenda, pandering, etc. why do you think the president keeps tweeting about God and guns and veterans and the flag?

 

[ManitouDan]

I would say it's as deep as saying someone's opinion doesn't matter because they're in the NBA... hypocrite

Never said that Jmeeks.

 

[Schwagg]

Until they address the black on black violence in the inner cities, how can anyone take these people seriously?

The violence is all from the crooked left. If they don't like what you say, they sic Antifa or BLM after ya. Most of the media supports this as well.

 

[sambowieshin]

He is turning into a social justice warrior. Don't give a crap about his opinion because it is mostly wrong. Liberalism is the biggest problem affecting this country. Not racism.

Actually, the biggest problem facing our country is the fanatical belief that one ideology is always right and the other is always wrong, despite logic to the contrary. The weak minded fall prey to this quite easily.

 

[Ugoff]

It wasn't like what we see now because they didn't have 24 hours of TV time to fill and politicians hadn't figured out if you tell people the other side is evil and wants to destroy America that you can get them to do whatever you want and believe everything you say.

And on the same note about not letting it drop, an agenda, pandering, etc. why do you think the president keeps tweeting about God and guns and veterans and the flag?

It's a sign of the times when the President of the United States' promotion of our flag, religion, military, and Constitution is seen by some as pandering.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I’ll just say this one thing.

Yes, there are terrible parents and environments children unfortunately become predisposed to. And what do those kids do to fill that void? Today, it’s their phone, music, entertainment etc. A child will find a role model somewhere. Good or bad.

I’d also say Karl is not our youth. He’s a multi millionaire who lives inside of an extremely liberal echo chamber. And once again, he decided to pass on the more difficult conversation that is a biblical nightmare for most of his perceived community. And that’s a shame, because it follows a POLITICAL means and not geared toward the bigger issues - like the abortion rate, murder rate, drug abuse statistics, and the biggest problem blacks (and whites) face today, the breakdown of the traditional family.

I do appreciate the way he articulated himself. Most of these athletes didn’t even try, they just jumped on the cause.

Everyone knows deep down why the real conversation won’t happen. A large amount of people today do not want to be held accountable, and the answers for success demand accountability.

What Towns said is easy. The more important conversation is much harder.

He doesn't live in a liberal (or conservative) echo chamber any more than countless other kids across the country. Just being rich doesn't change the fact that he's a young man with opinions about important subjects.

It's also ridiculous for the standard for everyone to always be "well fix _____ before you have an opinion." The rest of us can just have opinions about things and do what we can in our daily lives, but Kapernick can't take a knee until there's no violence left in Chicago and the divorce rate is 0 and cancer is cured? It's a weak attempt to silence opposing voices, which is the very reason so many of these athletes are speaking up in the first place.

Yes, there's a difficult and complex discussion that needs to happen. But it's not on 20-year-old Karl Towns to lead and guide it. He can just share his thoughts and opinions and not owe anyone any more than that. If politicians can give us lip service about every issue for years, I'm not holding someone's feet to the fire that isn't old enough to rent a car.

Let's maybe just hear people out without finding reasons they haven't done enough to have an opinion and see what kind of conversation comes from that.

 

[GonzoCat90]

It's a sign of the times when the President of the United States' promotion of our flag, religion, military, and Constitution is seen by some as pandering.

It's a sign of the times that a huge portion of the country can't see it for what it is.

 

[Ugoff]

It's a sign of the times that a huge portion of the country can't see it for what it is.

A huge portion does; it's called pro-American.

 

[ManitouDan]

Actually, the biggest problem facing our country is the fanatical belief that one ideology is always right and the other is always wrong, despite logic to the contrary.

Def some truth to that . Divided We Fall. I'm a hard core ring winger , but not dumb enough to think everyone should accept my views as the gospel. As far as race goes its a complex issue that will never be eradicated . I spent an evening in the ER with a friend who was assaulted in an alley in Huntington WV when we were teens because he was white . I was there to hear the taunts from the group of young blacks who we had never met or even talked to . I was on the end of a broken beer bottle that night . So yeah Charlottesville was embarrassing and sad , so was that night in Huntington.

 

[uk78]

Excellent writing from KAT. But, why would anyone be surprised by the racism that occurred? It was a organized White Supremacy Group that requested to do the march. Hello,it was a purposeful racist march by a group based upon racism that obviously sought attention and counter-protest. Trump for better or worse, is not a politician but a guy that of course wants to maintain his hardcore base that helped him get elected. Some of that base included the White Supremacy Group and so he tried to have a diplomatic response that ended up being idiotic. Unfortunately, when going off script again he is not a politician and says some cringe-worthy comments. If the election had been about stupid comments he would have been last not first.

 

[BlueBlood66]

It's a sign of the times when the President of the United States' promotion of our flag, religion, military, and Constitution is seen by some as pandering.

What religion?

 

[Kuhldaddy]

Never said that Jmeeks.

Jmeeks has a bad habit of putting words in people’s mouth to advance his arguments

 

[T-Bickle]

Actually, the biggest problem facing our country is the fanatical belief that one ideology is always right and the other is always wrong, despite logic to the contrary. The weak minded fall prey to this quite easily.

I'd go a step further and say it's the biggest problem that has faced mankind since the beginning of time:
dogma.

Dogma may be inextricably linked to human thought and the human brain. It might have neen a successful evolutionary strategy but it's running its course IMO.

I'm hopeful it isn't inherent to being human.

 

[Joneslab]

Until they address the black on black violence in the inner cities, how can anyone take these people seriously?

There have been people trying to fix this problem for forty years. It's just a really complex problem.

It's en vogue to say nobody's paying attention to it ("What about Chicago?!," etc.), but I think the truth is that there are people who are paying attention--it's just not a sexy enough topic for the media.

We have the same problem in Kentucky with the eastern part of the state. There've been systemic, entrenched problems in eastern Kentucky for the entirety of the second half of the 20th century and into this one.

It would be easy for someone to say they don't care about Kentucky because Kentucky can't fix the problems in eastern Kentucky. But the truth is there *are* people trying to fix those problems. They're just so complex that the fixes are mystifying--and costly.

 

[morgousky]

He doesn't live in a liberal (or conservative) echo chamber any more than countless other kids across the country. Just being rich doesn't change the fact that he's a young man with opinions about important subjects.

It's also ridiculous for the standard for everyone to always be "well fix _____ before you have an opinion." The rest of us can just have opinions about things and do what we can in our daily lives, but Kapernick can't take a knee until there's no violence left in Chicago and the divorce rate is 0 and cancer is cured? It's a weak attempt to silence opposing voices, which is the very reason so many of these athletes are speaking up in the first place.

Yes, there's a difficult and complex discussion that needs to happen. But it's not on 20-year-old Karl Towns to lead and guide it. He can just share his thoughts and opinions and not owe anyone any more than that. If politicians can give us lip service about every issue for years, I'm not holding someone's feet to the fire that isn't old enough to rent a car.

Let's maybe just hear people out without finding reasons they haven't done enough to have an opinion and see what kind of conversation comes from that.

What is it about young rich black men who play sports that makes some not want to visualize them as the "one percent"? You seem to be doing your best to downplay the fact that he is a man, playing a mans game, and earning a kings salary? He doesn't live in the real world, he's been pampered and spoiled for years. And now he's wildly wealthy. If he was white and became a self made businessman from poverty, his views would be written off as out of touch. No one left of center would care how he started.

It's not ridiculous to want to tackle the most important issues first, that's the logical thing to do when we are talking about thousands and thousands of dead bodies, massive incarceration rates due to drug use, and the total breakdown of the traditional family in some of these neighborhoods. When Did Towns speak out on the epidemic of black fathers abandoning their children? Never heard it. How about Kaepernick speaking out about the culture and lifestyle that has ended the lives of tens of thousands of black people? Never heard it.

I think someone like you would definitely have those conversations, but the people you are speaking for do not share your thoughts.

 

[sambowieshin]

It's a sign of the times when the President of the United States' promotion of our flag, religion, military, and Constitution is seen by some as pandering.

Pandering is not a problem....all politicians do that. However, calling people S.O.B's who do not agree with you is a dangerous thing for a President to do. Turning those who disagree with you into "those others", instead of fellow Americans with a different opinion, is where Trump is dividing us and making the underlying problems worse IMO.

 

[GonzoCat90]

A huge portion does; it's called pro-American.

And if you're pro-American, it doesn't matter if you're anything else. Even if one of those things is anti-American. Doesn't matter if you pass policy or even know what a U.S. Territory is when you've convinced people you're the only one who tells them the truth and the only one who loves America.

Just be loud and faux patriotic and anyone who disagrees hates America. Welcome to 2017. Can't imagine how that could possibly go wrong.

 

[ManitouDan]

^^^ Love all my fellow Cat fans but I couldnt disagree any stronger with the accusations of faux patriotism .

 

[Ugoff]

And if you're pro-American, it doesn't matter if you're anything else. Even if one of those things is anti-American. Doesn't matter if you pass policy or even know what a U.S. Territory is when you've convinced people you're the only one who tells them the truth and the only one who loves America.

Just be loud and faux patriotic and anyone who disagrees hates America. Welcome to 2017. Can't imagine how that could possibly go wrong.

I said flag, religion, military and Constitution. If you find something anti-American in that, I can't help you.

 

[chroix]

Both sides are guilty of dividends by us firther and further which in turn prevents common sense solutions from being implemented. Hopefully this ends soon or I’m afraid for the future of our country.

 

[Ugoff]

Pandering is not a problem....all politicians do that. However, calling people S.O.B's who do not agree with you is a dangerous thing for a President to do. Turning those who disagree with you into "those others", instead of fellow Americans with a different opinion, is where Trump is dividing us and making the underlying problems worse IMO.

"I don't have any facts, but the Cambridge police acted stupidly"

 

[ManitouDan]

Kinda sad , Rupps rafters is mirroring our country , becoming more and more divided . I'm against that . Gonzo can i buy you a BEER Lets talk about our team and just face the facts that the old saying " dont discuss religion or politics with friends" is right on the money

 

[Wall2Wall]

Def some truth to that . Divided We Fall. I'm a hard core ring winger , but not dumb enough to think everyone should accept my views as the gospel.

100% agree with that, ManitouDan. People should spend more time further educating themselves on their beliefs and opinions, while also trying to understand why others have differing opinions, and less time trying to prove others wrong in an argument that most likely still does not have a collectively acceptable right answer.

 

[Ugoff]

Kinda sad , Rupps rafters is mirroring our country , becoming more and more divided . I'm against that . Gonzo can i buy you a BEER Lets talk about our team and just face the facts that the old saying " dont discuss religion or politics with friends" is right on the money

You the man Dan! We're falling into the trap set by the lyin' media.

 

[K_TIME]

I'm still trying to understand what exactly KAT stated in his article that was liberal? It sounded like a well thought out reasoned response.

1. I don't think he ever stated his support of kneeling for National Anthem?
2. He is bothered by shooting of unarmed black man in Minnesota.
3. He is bothered by Charlottesville protest organized by people carrying rebel flags, all white people and some other unsavory people.
4. He is bothered that Trump really botched his first public comments that condemned both sides and wasn't specific to a side that publically denouncing White supremicist until 2nd speach...that bothered alot of people.

And I voted from Trump and support his general agenda (America first, repeal Obamocare, lower immigration impacts, conservative Supreme court judge, lower taxes and speed up the economy for all)....but I'm bothered by Trump's Charlottesville response, his constant bickering within his own cabinet members publicly, his birth certificate issue with Obama, etc...). It isn't a big deal to me if other people don't like all things Trump....KAT is a good dude regardless of his political leanings.

 

[sambowieshin]

I'd go a step further and say it's the biggest problem that has faced mankind since the beginning of time:
dogma.

Dogma may be inextricably linked to human thought and the human brain. It might have neen a successful evolutionary strategy but it's running its course IMO.

I'm hopeful it isn't inherent to being human.

Very akin to tribalism, political parties, and chimpanzee behavior in the wild.

 

[morgousky]

And if you're pro-American, it doesn't matter if you're anything else. Even if one of those things is anti-American. Doesn't matter if you pass policy or even know what a U.S. Territory is when you've convinced people you're the only one who tells them the truth and the only one who loves America.

Just be loud and faux patriotic and anyone who disagrees hates America. Welcome to 2017. Can't imagine how that could possibly go wrong.

Gonzo, I've attempted to let this go for a while.

Some of us have lost people very close to us fighting for your rights. Some died or nearly died themselves. My grandfather was blasted to pieces, literally, and to the day he could't stand honored and respected the American purpose. I've also lost a cousin in Iraq, and my best friend Steven who was killed in Afghanistan. Do you know what they send to the parents and families of people killed in war? An American flag. None of this is about faux patriotism and you express this view a lot. You only seem to want one side understood.

Honest question Gonzo, have you lost close friends and family to war?

 

[GonzoCat90]

What is it about young rich black men who play sports that makes some not want to visualize them as the "one percent"? You seem to be doing your best to downplay the fact that he is a man, playing a mans game, and earning a kings salary? He doesn't live in the real world, he's been pampered and spoiled for years. And now he's wildly wealthy. If he was white and became a self made businessman from poverty, his views would be written off as out of touch. No one left of center would care how he started.

It's not ridiculous to want to tackle the most important issues first, that's the logical thing to do when we are talking about thousands and thousands of dead bodies, massive incarceration rates due to drug use, and the total breakdown of the traditional family in some of these neighborhoods. When Did Towns speak out on the epidemic of black fathers abandoning their children? Never heard it. How about Kaepernick speaking out about the culture and lifestyle that has ended the lives of tens of thousands of black lives? Never heard it.

I think someone like you would definitely have those conversations, but the people you are speaking for do not share your thoughts.

I disagree with your first paragraph and its premise. That imaginary businessman shouldn't be written off as out of touch either. I consider "one-percenters" to be those born into generational wealth, not those creating or aspiring towards having it.

Karl Towns knows what it's like to be middle class or poor. Most of these athletes do. That's why I don't write off their opinions. Eric Bledsoe knows incredibly well what it's like to poor and black in America. LeBron James knows. John Wall knows. If they want to talk about that experience, I'm fine with that. It's different from my own and I might learn something.

It's the same reason I want to hear from people in Eastern Kentucky about the coal industry and mountaintop removal and things like that. It's why I want to hear from Native Americans about pipelines that go through their land. If one of those people strikes it rich, it doesn't detract from their perspective and experiences. In fact, someone who has lived both ways likely has views they can offer about that as well.

As for the big issues, no one worth listening to thinks those shouldn't be discussed and solved. But it's faulty logic to say that we can't discuss and solve other things in the meantime. If my house has a leaky roof, I can still hang a new picture on the wall while waiting on the repair company.

Now, there are people who don't want those issues discussed because they don't want those issues solved--on both sides, for a multitude of reasons that mostly all stem back to lining their own pockets and voting booths. But it's not a reason to shut down any conversation started by anyone as if that's the sentiment shared by everyone.

 

[ManitouDan]

I'll admit I didnt read every word Of KAT's Op-ed . But the point seemed to be that racism is alive and flourishing because a few idiots got together in c-ville . And he didnt like Trumps response . And I'll say Trump could have made a stronger statement and his choice of words were poor . But he did clarify and strongly condemn the actions the following morning. Folks the guy is a disaster with twitter . He sticks his foot in mouth with near daily regularity , but the man has zero history of being a racist , the media are feeding you a lie to advance their agenda , at this point several organizations are nothing more than open adversaries to the President. And they are driving a TON of this division among us .

 

[GonzoCat90]

Gonzo, I've attempted to let this go for a while.

Some of us have lost people very close to us fighting for your rights. Some died or nearly died themselves. My grandfather was blasted to pieces, literally, and to the day he could't stand honored and respected the American purpose. I've also lost a cousin in Iraq, and my best friend Steven who was killed in Afghanistan. Do you know what they send to the parents and families of people killed in war? An American flag. None of this is about faux patriotism and you express this view a lot. You only seem to want one side understood.

Honest question Gonzo, have you lost close friends and family to war?

Sadly, yes. Favorite older cousin who used to let me drink Kool-aid straight from the pitcher, friend who taught me how to shoot a crossbow in middle school, and the husband of one of my best female friends--all in Iraq.

Which is why it infuriates me that it's used as a dog whistle to rile up a voter base around fabricated arguments. It's just not what's going on. You can't interpret someone else's protest for them and tell them what they mean.

But that isn't stopping the White House from using it to stage pretend walk-outs and call for boycotts.

The second anyone tells me they don't love America and are trying to disrespect it, I'm absolutely with you. But staging a protest for equality *during* the Anthem doesn't equate to protesting the anthem itself. Some of our greatest patriots have criticized the country when it needed it, because that's how you make something grow and prosper.

If you love your children, you teach and correct them. And no matter what tantrum they throw, it isn't because "you hate them and want to ruin their life."

Some apparently disagree with that, and that's their right. But I'll challenge their logic when they try and argue otherwise, because I think it's far more disrespectful to the flag to hide behind it for political gain than to kneel when a song is played.

 

[sambowieshin]

"I don't have any facts, but the Cambridge police acted stupidly"

You are making my point exactly. Obama had his piss poor moments as well. It is up to us, as Americans, to call out conservatives and/or liberals for BS. Blindly supporting one ideology over another, without question, is dangerous and what lead to Nazi Germany. As I stated earlier in this thread....
The biggest problem facing our country is the fanatical belief that one ideology is always right and the other is always wrong, despite logic to the contrary.

 

[GonzoCat90]

^^^ Love all my fellow Cat fans but I couldnt disagree any stronger with the accusations of faux patriotism .

Not accusing UGoff of it. I'm saying those ideals are being used for political gain in an insincere way. To anyone who loves the things listed, I would hope it bothers them to see them sullied in that way.

I believe 99% of people want the best for this country and just have different opinions on what that is and how we get there. Very few folks are intrinsically evil or have sinister motives. Sadly, most of that 1% isn't posting on a message board, they're writing and passing policy.

 

[BBUK]

I don't think liberalism is the biggest problem affecting this country.

To me the biggest problem is a lack of empathy and a general unwillingness of people to see situations that are outside of their own perspective as anything relevant to their lives.

It's come to be about me, me, me. My people, my beliefs, my political side. In a just society everybody should pull everyone else up. Instead we have this combative thing where people have formed teams. Even mundane, everyday issues have become Us vs. Them.

I don't agree with everything in Towns' article but I'm willing to try and understand where he might be coming from. It takes a suspension of my own ego as a 40-year-old white man. That's hard to do. In the inverse, a lot of these athletes refuse to see where the other side is coming from when they talk about the flag or the role of police or whatever. So the athletes and their surrogates are not totally blameless either.

JSlab, this is not pointed toward you though I did quote your post. (My take)

Do what you want to do, but don't affect or stop me in the process and don't affect or stop someone who cannot defend themself.

Don't push your agenda whether liberal or conservative on me when you have me as a captive audience. (A TV or sports program. I watched either for the content, not your message since you have my attention and I can't walk away from your message. If I do I lose what I payed for----before you took over what I paid for to make me watch or lose my dough.)

Don't make anyone have their child taught sex-ed when they should be playing with barbie dolls and don't tell my child their are three genders. They will believe what you tell them if you tell them enough times.

BLUF: (Bottom Line Up Front)

"Male and female created he them..."

Don't make me pay by confiscating my money for something I would never buy.

Do the above and generally we are good.

 

[morgousky]

I disagree with your first paragraph and its premise. That imaginary businessman shouldn't be written off as out of touch either. I consider "one-percenters" to be those born into generational wealth, not those creating or aspiring towards having it.

Karl Towns knows what it's like to be middle class or poor. Most of these athletes do. That's why I don't write off their opinions. Eric Bledsoe knows incredibly well what it's like to poor and black in America. LeBron James knows. John Wall knows. If they want to talk about that experience, I'm fine with that. It's different from my own and I might learn something.

It's the same reason I want to hear from people in Eastern Kentucky about the coal industry and mountaintop removal and things like that. It's why I want to hear from Native Americans about pipelines that go through their land. If one of those people strikes it rich, it doesn't detract from their perspective and experiences. In fact, someone who has lived both ways likely has views they can offer about that as well.

As for the big issues, no one worth listening to thinks those shouldn't be discussed and solved. But it's faulty logic to say that we can't discuss and solve other things in the meantime. If my house has a leaky roof, I can still hang a new picture on the wall while waiting on the repair company..

But what if your roof has been leaking for decades and is about to cave in on your head? Would you want to hang a picture then or get a new roof? That's the position we are at. I mean, the numbers are staggering. You can't possibly believe the black communities are engaging these issues even close to equally? Having worked in areas that are high risk, I can tell ya man, until people end this and attack the unavoidable issues nothing is going to change. We will continue to let the house burn while trying to save a suitcase. The myth of oppression stems from the headlock that one political party has, and has had, over these communities for generations. They could not help solve the problem. So if it is systematic oppression, why do these communities vote the same oppressors back into power?

I'm sorry, I don't want to cast motives, but some of this is just pandering. I know the entire conversation is set up for political motivations, and I think some like you aren't as far left and could be reasonable, but just because you're white doesn't mean you can't comment on black issues in a factual way using data / statistics to prove a crisis worth pursuing. And it just seems that there's a strong element of soft bigotry, which, as a non racist, I find more troubling than a southern kid wearing his confederate flag headed out to shoot some ducks.

 

[Joneslab]

I do think it's true that some people respond to patriotic symbols more than others. The flag, the Anthem, "God Bless America"...I know people who take all those things deeply serious.

I always thought it was odd how patriotism and sports became so intertwined. Many others don't even question it.

I think this just betrays a difference in personality. I don't necessarily even like this about myself, it just is. By the same token, I've always been baffled at those outward shows of religiosity--i.e. athletes getting in a circle after games to pray. Those are incredibly bothersome to me, and I never liked it even when I played sports.

OTOH, I know many people who feel exactly the opposite. I want to be understanding of their views but sometimes it's difficult.

 

[BBUK]

But what if your roof has been leaking for decades and is about to cave in on your head? Would you want to hang a picture then or get a new roof? That's the position we are at. I mean, the numbers are staggering. You can't possibly believe the black communities are engaging these issues even close to equally? Having worked in areas that are high risk, I can tell ya man, until people end this and attack the unavoidable issues nothing is going to change. We will continue to let the house burn while trying to save a suitcase. The myth of oppression stems from the headlock that one political party has, and has had, over these communities for generations. They could not help solve the problem. So if it is systematic oppression, why do these communities vote the same oppressors back into power?

I'm sorry, I don't want to cast motives, but some of this is just pandering. I know the entire conversation is set up for political motivations, and I think some like you aren't as far left and could be reasonable, but just because you're white doesn't mean you can't comment on black issues in a factual way using data / statistics to prove a crisis worth pursuing. And it just seems that there's a strong element of soft bigotry, which, as a non racist, I find more troubling than a southern kid wearing his confederate flag headed out to shoot some ducks.

I'll call a black man a fool in a second.......if he's a fool. You used soft bigotry. That is correct. Real men and women don't want that.

 

[GonzoCat90]

But what if your roof has been leaking for decades and is about to cave in on your head? Would you want to hang a picture then or get a new roof? That's the position we are at. I mean, the numbers are staggering. You can't possibly believe the black communities are engaging these issues even close to equally? Having worked in areas that are high risk, I can tell ya man, until people end this and attack the unavoidable issues nothing is going to change. We will continue to let the house burn while trying to save a suitcase. The myth of oppression stems from the headlock that one political party has, and has had, over these communities for generations. They could not help solve the problem. So if it is systematic oppression, why do these communities vote the same oppressors back into power?

I'm sorry, I don't want to cast motives, but some of this is just pandering. I know the entire conversation is set up for political motivations, and I think some like you aren't as far left and could be reasonable, but just because you're white doesn't mean you can't comment on black issues in a factual way using data / statistics to prove a crisis worth pursuing. And it just seems that there's a strong element of soft bigotry, which, as a non racist, I find more troubling than a southern kid wearing his confederate flag headed out to shoot some ducks.

I think the issue is all over the place. I think in lots of cases, there are people and groups who have been trying to solve these problems for years but either don't have the means or resources or manpower or support to make it happen (for thousands of reasons).

I also think there are people who don't want it solved (like I mentioned above, usually for personal and political gain).

I also think there are people who believe those issues will be improved if these other things (poverty, education, police relations, etc) are improved and focus their efforts elsewhere but are hoping for the same end result you are.

There are people who don't actually want to do anything and just want to talk because it alleviates them of guilt and makes a social statement.

There are people who believe it's a product of systemic racism and that until racism is solved, that those issues can't be (kind of the reverse stance of what we're talking about, I guess).


So I don't think it's fair to label anyone who's speaking out as one particular thing or act like there's this overarching force trying to keep the situation tumultuous. I think it's mostly well-meaning and well-reasoned people with different ideas, trying different solutions, without the unity and organization it will probably take to fix something of that magnitude. Too many cooks, so to speak.

It's probably a combination of all the factors I mentioned and more, but we aren't in a climate where nuance and discussion is allowed, and the feelings and emotions and opinions are so hot (and getting hotter) that it's just folks trying to talk over each other and call the other side a villain. And that lets the real villains slip through the cracks.

 

[morgousky]

Sadly, yes. Favorite older cousin who used to let me drink Kool-aid straight from the pitcher, friend who taught me how to shoot a crossbow in middle school, and the husband of one of my best female friends--all in Iraq.

Which is why it infuriates me that it's used as a dog whistle to rile up a voter base around fabricated arguments. It's just not what's going on. You can't interpret someone else's protest for them and tell them what they mean.

But that isn't stopping the White House from using it to stage pretend walk-outs and call for boycotts.

The second anyone tells me they don't love America and are trying to disrespect it, I'm absolutely with you. But staging a protest for equality *during* the Anthem doesn't equate to protesting the anthem itself. Some of our greatest patriots have criticized the country when it needed it, because that's how you make something grow and prosper.

If you love your children, you teach and correct them. And no matter what tantrum they throw, it isn't because "you hate them and want to ruin their life."

Some apparently disagree with that, and that's their right. But I'll challenge their logic when they try and argue otherwise, because I think it's far more disrespectful to the flag to hide behind it for political gain than to kneel when a song is played.

Sorry to hear about your cousin, legitimately. I think about people I've lost daily, tough to get past it.

I'm gonna wind down, but the part I highlighted has been said over and over by guys like Kaepernick, ESPN, and others. Cardkilla will show up any minute to tell you this country is worse than Nazi Germany. Glad to know you disagree with that sentiment, honestly, I didn't know.

 

[BBUK]

I think the issue is all over the place. I think in lots of cases, there are people and groups who have been trying to solve these problems for years but either don't have the means or resources or manpower or support to make it happen (for thousands of reasons).

I also think there are people who don't want it solved (like I mentioned above, usually for personal and political gain).

I also think there are people who believe those issues will be improved if these other things (poverty, education, police relations, etc) are improved and focus their efforts elsewhere but are hoping for the same end result you are.

There are people who don't actually want to do anything and just want to talk because it alleviates them of guilt and makes a social statement.

There are people who believe it's a product of systemic racism and that until racism is solved, that those issues can't be (kind of the reverse stance of what we're talking about, I guess).


So I don't think it's fair to label anyone who's speaking out as one particular thing or act like there's this overarching force trying to keep the situation tumultuous. I think it's mostly well-meaning and well-reasoned people with different ideas, trying different solutions, without the unity and organization it will probably take to fix something of that magnitude. Too many cooks, so to speak.

It's probably a combination of all the factors I mentioned and more, but we aren't in a climate where nuance and discussion is allowed, and the feelings and emotions and opinions are so hot (and getting hotter) that it's just folks trying to talk over each other and call the other side a villain. And that lets the real villains slip through the cracks.

You have to hold someone accountable. Who?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Sorry to hear about your cousin, legitimately. I think about people I've lost daily, tough to get past it.

I'm gonna wind down, but the part I highlighted has been said over and over by guys like Kaepernick, ESPN, and others. Cardkilla will show up any minute to tell you this country is worse than Nazi Germany. Glad to know you disagree with that sentiment, honestly, I didn't know.

One of the most bizarre days of my life. Felt selfish for being upset when you see people *closer* to them and what they're going through. Just a strange, complicated state of mind. I definitely feel for anyone who's gone through that.

Good talk, buddy. I'm sure we'll do it again in a day or two.