You need to off of Luka's ass, he's just tryin' to make a livin' as best he can
GYERO
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This game is so bad I just want to jump off the press box and kill myself but unfortunately it is too short.
😂. Why is that dude not on a hot mike all the time? That isn't exactly grab 'em by the p-word material.
Good for Randall. I hope the Wolves take it to 7. We are to the point in the season that I'm just rooting for more basketball and I want to see Anthony Edwards set himself up for the next big leap.
I think Dallas is going to take the next one and then proceed to destroy Boston, though,
😂. Why is that dude not on a hot mike all the time? That isn't exactly grab 'em by the p-word material.
Good for Randall. I hope the Wolves take it to 7. We are to the point in the season that I'm just rooting for more basketball and I want to see Anthony Edwards set himself up for the next big leap.
I think Dallas is going to take the next one and then proceed to destroy Boston, though,
The Negro League stats/stars/etc deserve to be recognized on an equal level as MLB, but on their own platform. They were groundbreaking in many ways, and their place in baseball lore is often forgotten and/or disregarded, even disparaged.
MLB stats have long been the gold standard for sports....baseball fans could recite the numbers of numerous categories, both career and single season for any list of players. Box scores were as much a part of our daily lives in the summer as anything.
Intertwining the stats strictly as a result of social policy is asinine, and just another reason why the powers in charge often have their head up their ass when deciding rules or championing a new cause, for example. They know full well the competition was not on equal grounds and the stats are not apples to apples between the leagues.
MLB stats have long been the gold standard for sports....baseball fans could recite the numbers of numerous categories, both career and single season for any list of players. Box scores were as much a part of our daily lives in the summer as anything.
Intertwining the stats strictly as a result of social policy is asinine, and just another reason why the powers in charge often have their head up their ass when deciding rules or championing a new cause, for example. They know full well the competition was not on equal grounds and the stats are not apples to apples between the leagues.
So separate but equal, huh? Interesting concept, surprised no one ever thought of that before.
Cool.. now my dude needs to sit next to Beth Mowans and Debbie Antonelli for WNBA calls. Keep it real.
Excellent post.
As another example, in 1943, the year that Gibson had his "record" 1.427 OPS, the third place team in his league went 8-8. The last place team went 8-24. Gibson's team played 67 games while only one of the other 6 teams played more than 50.
This move by MLB completely f's up the numbers. And they did it for absolutely no valid reason other than feeling guilty about being racist 75 years ago.
Just wait until the NBA and WNBA combine stats. I mean, what are we doing here? Trying to erase history?
I’ll post more later, but a quick point about competion: are you goofballs going to completely ignore that many MLB legends never played against a single black player? Or Hispanic? Or Asian?
Just seems like it’s worth mentioning.
Just seems like it’s worth mentioning.
So? Is that their fault? And why does ethnicity/race matter? We are talking about the same league. But if you want to go there, then you also have to throw in different era's.....Pete Rose didn't bat against Walter Johnson, Nolan Ryan didn't get to pitch against Ruth, etc. What would MJ have averaged in the 60's? Where do you draw the line?
And you don't need to post more later on the subject.
Some of yall haven't seen Shane Gillis' cool white guy story/joke and it shows.
I am not completely ignoring anything. I'd argue you should have four sets of leaders for statistical records:
- Pre-modern era (before 1905 or so)
- Modern era pre-integration
- Negro leagues
- One after integration
Semi-related, Tires is now on NF. One night binger. 7/10
Well, yeah. It kinda is MLB's fault for banning like half the baseball players in the world from playing in their league.
I'm just pointing out the irony of anyone (like WhiteWayne) who criticizes the Negro Leagues for not playing against the best competition when MLB players were obviously doing the same, since they literally BANNED a huge portion of the very best competition from playing in their league.
Having a hard time buying the notion that Gibson could really compete with the likes of HoF'er Adrian "Cap" Anson.
Nah, I prefer the false equivalency that states we can't count those records because Ohtani never pitched against Billy Hamilton.
How does this news affect the Three Chums?
Lots of thoughts here, but my first criticisms on the Negro League stat integration.....
- it completely whitewashes the racist history of MLB. There's nothing you can do about that now, and modern players/coaches/etc shouldn't feel the slightest bit of guilt about what happened decades ago, but I've always been of the opinion that just acknowledging that it happened is the best we way can honor their contributions. This makes it feel like we're just pretending they were always Major Leaguers.
- the legend and the lore of the Negro Leagues has actually made many of their players even MORE famous. Satchel Paige's comps on b-r.com are Chris Sale, Gary Nolan, and Denny McClain. He just got tossed into a mix of thousands of ballplayers overnight, whereas as a Negro Leaguer he was an absolute legend. Perhaps the greatest of all time. Cool Papa Bell was so fast he could turn out the lights and be in bed before it got dark. Now, he's got less steals all time than Tony Womack.
For those reasons, I'm not crazy about it. They deserve to stand on their own because they DID stand on their own. And they deserve to be honored as players who were as talented as anyone else in the world, including those who played in the Majors.
- it completely whitewashes the racist history of MLB. There's nothing you can do about that now, and modern players/coaches/etc shouldn't feel the slightest bit of guilt about what happened decades ago, but I've always been of the opinion that just acknowledging that it happened is the best we way can honor their contributions. This makes it feel like we're just pretending they were always Major Leaguers.
- the legend and the lore of the Negro Leagues has actually made many of their players even MORE famous. Satchel Paige's comps on b-r.com are Chris Sale, Gary Nolan, and Denny McClain. He just got tossed into a mix of thousands of ballplayers overnight, whereas as a Negro Leaguer he was an absolute legend. Perhaps the greatest of all time. Cool Papa Bell was so fast he could turn out the lights and be in bed before it got dark. Now, he's got less steals all time than Tony Womack.
For those reasons, I'm not crazy about it. They deserve to stand on their own because they DID stand on their own. And they deserve to be honored as players who were as talented as anyone else in the world, including those who played in the Majors.
I'd be perfectly happy to qualify any record in the following ways:
1) Pre-modern era (before ~1910)
2) Modern era pre-integration
3) Negro Leagues
4) Post-integration
Again, my issue with incorporating the Negro Leagues is that they didn't play enough games to have any semblance of an apples to apples comparison with legacy MLB records.
Frankly, I don't really care if you want to call Josh Gibson the all-time BA leader. I just want a goddamn filter in Baseball Reference so that I can make heads or tails out of what I'm seeing. It's confusing as shit now. 🤣
So with the new stats being added, the Yanks still have 27 rings, right?
If so, I’m good.
If so, I’m good.
Ya momma got whitewashed last night
Same thing. LOL. Men stats v/s women's stats are exactly the same as comparing white men baseball players to black men baseball players stats.
Also, how do we know that MLB was the best league ? Because all of the players where white ? We will never know what league was the best, if only they could have played one another and proved it on the diamond.
-agree with pti (gasp), it needs to be kept separate so as not to confuse the history.
-also... there were certainly a handful of amazing players in the negro leagues. That said, some have gotten to the point that they just assume *all* these guys would've torn up MLB. It's bullshit... bordering on fetishism, if we're being honest. It's gross.
-also... there were certainly a handful of amazing players in the negro leagues. That said, some have gotten to the point that they just assume *all* these guys would've torn up MLB. It's bullshit... bordering on fetishism, if we're being honest. It's gross.
I had to go back and re-read this a few times to be sure. Man, this guy just somehow manages to outdo himself on a regular basis. We're literally talking about a comparison of the ALL WHITE league versus the ALL BLACK league, and he drops.....
"why does ethnicity/race matter?"
🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
And some of y'all actually keep bad posters hidden. Why? Reading impossibly stupid s*** like this just makes my day. Unreal.
I feel like anything I say that involves the Negro Leagues in the same post as Vern's mom will get me banned.
Go Cats!
When my buddy’s vegan-lawyer wife drops the Josh Gibson stats ‘victory’ Instagram post …with her vast knowledge of baseball 🤮 backing this opinion… you know the intent behind who this was intended to appease. HINT: certainly not hardcore baseball fans not named Bob Costas.
One of the cool things about having all the Negro League statistics is we can deduce which leagues were best based on how many players made the jump to MLB and how they did there. And we can look at what percent of MLB was black in say, 1975, to compare what would have happened had the leagues been integrated.
My overall summary is that the top players in the 30's and 40's Negro Leagues were as good (and in some instances) slightly better than MLB - especially offensively. From a pitching perspective, it's probably a wash for the top players. We know this by looking at MVPs once the leagues were integrated (a lot of black MVPs in MLB, some black Cy Youngs). Depth, especially at the pitcher position, was an issue. You can look at stats from dudes who played both in MLB and the Negro Leagues to see a significant drop off in OPS once they were able to play MLB.
One last point that's also worth noting: the leagues that MLB considers to be "Major Leagues" has changed quite a bit over the years. In 1969 a special committee recognized the following:
- National
- American
- American Association
- Union Association
- Players League
- Federal League
It's a sport that's seen tremendous change over the past 160 years, so it's not like it's a group of 30 stable teams that have been around since the Civil War.
(still sticking with my point that Negro League records should stand apart, but I felt this was important to mention)
- National
- American
- American Association
- Union Association
- Players League
- Federal League
It's a sport that's seen tremendous change over the past 160 years, so it's not like it's a group of 30 stable teams that have been around since the Civil War.
(still sticking with my point that Negro League records should stand apart, but I felt this was important to mention)
Fair enough. But one thing I would like to know, how old was the Negro League's best players when they finally got to play in MLB ? Past their prime ? Near prime ? Also, you HAVE to factor in the pressure (even dangers) Negro League guys had the first years playing in a previously all white league. Racism was at it's worst during this time and fear definitely played a part in SOME of the guys ability to focus on JUST baseball. Personal and family safety had to have played a role.
Why not leagues in the Carribean or Japan? I recall the Bad News Bears did pretty well in Japan. Kelly Leak for the Hall of Fame!! No doubt Amanda Wurlitzer will be inducted by the aforementioned Bobby Costas.
I'm glad you asked. HofFer Larry Doby is a pretty good example. From age 18-22 (with breaks for military service) he played in the Negro Leagues - and in the same league as Gibson (there were two leagues).
OPS by age in the NL:
19 - .973
22 - 1.030
23 - 1.182
Btw... here are Josh Gibson's OPS by age:
21 - 1.186
22 - 1.012
23 - 1.109
Then Doby moved to the majors for Cleveland:
24 - .873
25 - .857
26 - .986
27 - .941
And it trails off slightly from there.
So stud MLB player who was a good comp from an OPS perspective to Josh Gibson, moved to MLB where he was a HoFer, but not an all-timer.
FFS the 3 of the 4 most engaged in this topic are uko, wayne and dinklage. Make it stop.
Maybe this change your mind:
The league Josh Gibson played in where he set the record for OPS in 1943 averaged 11.4 runs per game. The other negro league averaged 8.7. The legacy MLB averaged 8.
No, that isn't what we are talking about at all. We are talking about MLB and the Negro League. The race issue is obvious, but the main point is intertwining the statistics. Why not throw in Eddie "the King" Feigner and his pitching stats while we're at it? Jenny Finch? Bingo Long?
Your inability to discuss baseball logically is nauseating.
Because Eddie Feigner and Jenny Finch literally played a different sport.
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