I see a lot of “lost to the #1 team in November” stuff being posted. So what will you say when we inevitably find out Kansas is not some great team after dropping a few bad ones? Nearly every season people watch this champions classic and think the games are amazing, only to find out later these are fairly average teams.
For you moral victory folks..
- Thread starter Mdnerd
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They haven't lost yet. We'll get better Wagner and Edward's definitely will.
Do you think WE are average? I don't think we are.
I guess we will find out. As of now, Kansas is very vulnerable, especially if you shut down the big dummy in the middle. If we had our big guys, he would not have done what he did, and we would have murdered that Kansas team.
We were murdering them without our bigs. We just choked.
UK fans settling for moral victories tells you how low Cal has lowered our once great program.
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1 point from Edwards. 4 points from Wagner. Yet they played more minutes than Reed and Dillingham. I've seen this movie before.
Cal will always find a way to choke. He has to. He has an obligation to play his 5 stars regardless of how badly they are stinking up the joint. That means we live or die by their performance. And so far most of them are terrible.
Definitely not settling. I'm pissed about losing. But I'm not down about it. Let me see where we are in a month. If Cal is still forcing DJ and Edwards without much production, I will know he hasn't changed a damn lick.
No moral victory here.
Sometimes you just lose a close game. It is what it is.
Sometimes you just lose a close game. It is what it is.
I don’t know if Kansas will actually turn out to be best team in the country or not, but recent history suggests they certainly won’t be bad.
Even though I’m not quite fine with losing the way we did, my reason for maintaining some optimism after last night is that we did all that without any semblance of a post presence. If we had our big men and Dickinson didn’t put up 27 and 21 while controlling entire stretches of the game, it probably would have been a different outcome. At least for right now, there’s still reason to think we can be dangerous if we can get healthy.
Even though I’m not quite fine with losing the way we did, my reason for maintaining some optimism after last night is that we did all that without any semblance of a post presence. If we had our big men and Dickinson didn’t put up 27 and 21 while controlling entire stretches of the game, it probably would have been a different outcome. At least for right now, there’s still reason to think we can be dangerous if we can get healthy.
Tbf, we still almost won, even with that. Just had a couple of miscues from Reed and Dilly that hurt us late. Reeves didn't help either. But we def. have to have more that 1-18 production from two lotto picks.
Unfortunately, "Just Choked" isn't on the selection committee's ballot when selecting seed lines. It's wins and losses. Nothing more. Nothing else.
Come on man. Aren’t you tired of the let me see game? You know the outcome already. You’re just in denial.
Your love for UK basketball overcomes your denial. I used to be that way. Now I know Cal won’t change and he’s killing our program.
This game won't mean much seed wise IF we can do really well in the SEC.
And my level of care for this game will go down drastically if we do well in the SEC. But if we don't? Then we stare at another 6-9 seed. At some point, these games have to start mattering.
This is his type of team. I can see that from the last couple of years.
I have no faith he can pull overly great coaching out of his butt, I'm hoping more we have dudes that can nullify that and just win games.
I don't think it's so much a moral victory. I think there's more to analyze than win or lose. How did we look?
For 3 straight seasons, I've watched terrible basketball. I didn't need the result to know we were playing badly. Even when we won, I knew we weren't good because of how we played basketball. The Tyty/Oscar team had a solid stretch, but we also had a lot of times we just passed around the perimeter and chucked a bad shot late.
Last night, I watched really good basketball. We have guys that can get to the rim. We have guys that can shoot. We have NBA talent that can take over a game in the blink of an eye. Last night was very different from what I've seen the last 3 years. I don't need the result to tell me we have a good team. I can tell we have a good team from the basketball. There's LOTS that needs to be cleaned up. But the talent, for once, is there.
We played modern basketball. Dudes were driving. We were moving the ball. We were getting open looks. I think we went away from that late and dudes were doing too much Iso. Again, things need to be cleaned up. But the last 3 Calipari teams aren't even in this game. We'd be talking about losing by 15+.
I went into last night's game expecting us to lose. If you read all of the pre-game threads, most people seemed to agree Kansas was going to handle us. These kids showed up and gave 100%. I was surprised as how well we played.
For 3 straight seasons, I've watched terrible basketball. I didn't need the result to know we were playing badly. Even when we won, I knew we weren't good because of how we played basketball. The Tyty/Oscar team had a solid stretch, but we also had a lot of times we just passed around the perimeter and chucked a bad shot late.
Last night, I watched really good basketball. We have guys that can get to the rim. We have guys that can shoot. We have NBA talent that can take over a game in the blink of an eye. Last night was very different from what I've seen the last 3 years. I don't need the result to tell me we have a good team. I can tell we have a good team from the basketball. There's LOTS that needs to be cleaned up. But the talent, for once, is there.
We played modern basketball. Dudes were driving. We were moving the ball. We were getting open looks. I think we went away from that late and dudes were doing too much Iso. Again, things need to be cleaned up. But the last 3 Calipari teams aren't even in this game. We'd be talking about losing by 15+.
I went into last night's game expecting us to lose. If you read all of the pre-game threads, most people seemed to agree Kansas was going to handle us. These kids showed up and gave 100%. I was surprised as how well we played.
That's why I hate playing this game. Even if you win it, and then sputter in conference it means jack diddly.
Hell, if something happens to HD and KU starts struggling, it means diddly for them. I like the concept, but it becomes such a albatross for teams at times.
A few years ago I would have agreed with you. And, I'm seeing last night from a silver lining point of view, and like this team. But, recently "sometimes" losing a close game has more accurately become 'usually' when we play good teams.
We need two things for greatness;
1) get healthy, playable bigs
2) honest roster management that prioritizes winning.
In general, I think people are looking at last night as a continuation of 3 straight years of Calipari's failures. I think if we were coming off a better 3 year run, people would look at last night differently.
I've been as critical of Calipari as anyone the last year or 2. I give the guy a lot of credit. He went out and got shooters. He's changed the offense. He's stopped posting big men up in the paint.
There are some things he could have done better. Rob shouldn't have been benched after hitting 4 3's and finding Reeves for another on the break. Reed probably should have gotten more run with how well he played.
But the game plan was good. We did what we needed to do to be in it late. Reeves had 2 open 3's late to tie the game and came up short. We were in a position to win a game most people didn't think we could.
A lot of people are saying "More of the same from Cal" But it wasn't more of the same. We were a very different basketball team than we have been the last 3 years. We've got some things to figure out--Cal included. But I think we're turning a corner.
I've been as critical of Calipari as anyone the last year or 2. I give the guy a lot of credit. He went out and got shooters. He's changed the offense. He's stopped posting big men up in the paint.
There are some things he could have done better. Rob shouldn't have been benched after hitting 4 3's and finding Reeves for another on the break. Reed probably should have gotten more run with how well he played.
But the game plan was good. We did what we needed to do to be in it late. Reeves had 2 open 3's late to tie the game and came up short. We were in a position to win a game most people didn't think we could.
A lot of people are saying "More of the same from Cal" But it wasn't more of the same. We were a very different basketball team than we have been the last 3 years. We've got some things to figure out--Cal included. But I think we're turning a corner.
I feel like there's a safer bet that KU is going to be good this season than not be.
Are they the best team in America? Who knows. But they are probably up there and we went toe to toe with them without 3 bigs.
Are they the best team in America? Who knows. But they are probably up there and we went toe to toe with them without 3 bigs.
This is why I'm ignoring the "UK lost but ... young ... missing a key player .... lots of upside .... don't want to play them in march" .... guys, we have heard this EVERY SEASON.
You were all hyped into thinking Brandon Boston would get it together, too.
You don't have to be "down about it" to recognize that this is a signature Cal choke-loss. It's like the sun coming up in the east. And I love the low bar you've set - judging Cal by how DJ and Edwards will play against the next three opponents (The Little Sisters of the Blind).
I think the most troubling aspect of the game for me was the realization that Wagner and Edwards are not and won't be great players at the college level. They may have some good games against average teams, but they are not and won't be doing that against Kansas.
Anthony Davis and MKG could dominate a game without taking the air out of the ball and chucking shots. If the shots weren't falling, they still made game changing plays in other ways. Wagner and Edwards both give you little outside of what they do on offense. And with them on the court, it is hard to have an offensive flow. They demand the ball too much.
Dillingham is also a streaky chucker who is good enough to go on a run when Cal stays out of the way. Cal is awful at game management and his substitutions. Players can't get in and stay in a rhythm with the way he yanks some players out. Wagner and Edwards both needed some time to watch the game from the sidelines and settle down, but Cal just kept them in.
Anthony Davis and MKG could dominate a game without taking the air out of the ball and chucking shots. If the shots weren't falling, they still made game changing plays in other ways. Wagner and Edwards both give you little outside of what they do on offense. And with them on the court, it is hard to have an offensive flow. They demand the ball too much.
Dillingham is also a streaky chucker who is good enough to go on a run when Cal stays out of the way. Cal is awful at game management and his substitutions. Players can't get in and stay in a rhythm with the way he yanks some players out. Wagner and Edwards both needed some time to watch the game from the sidelines and settle down, but Cal just kept them in.
This 100%. I don't know how you watch that game and think it was anything less than very good basketball from a team with tons of talent. You can't just look at the score and result. The game itself was a great performance by our guys. Seems like they got a bit tired to end it and I think that was ultimately the difference maker.
But this team got some dawgs on it. This team already is pretty good at not turning the ball over, and they're quite young (I know people are sick of hearing it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true). There were a few sequences of legitimately great, high intensity basketball last night. When they learn to string that together for a full game we'll be as good as any team in the country.
I REALLY don't think that's going to be the case.
Dickinson will be in the NPOY conversation. Harris is very good, experienced point guard. There other players are very good and understand their roles.
Kansas will lose a few because everyone loses a few. They'll be top 5, top 10 all-season and a 1 seed come March. Maybe a 2 seed. But if you're looking to knit pick at "They're really only a top 10 team" yeah ok. They're very good. That's the point.
Let's both bookmark this one and revisit it come March.
To me the bigger issue and what's been the issue for the past however many years we've been losing these big time games is a lack of a go to guy. Someone that can hit the big shot. KU had Harris. We had no one. As much as Dickinson was killing us on the inside, the game turned on those back to back 3s. The game turned when Reeves couldn't match.
It's ok when it's one game but this has been basically happening for years now in big games.
And conversely when we were making final fours, we DID have those guys. It took what three game winning shots from Harrison in 14 to make a final four? Brandon Knight in 11.......same thing.
Who is that on this team? That needs to be figured out. Because what happened was we were up 6 with a chance to close this thing out and although we played well up to that point, we kind of looked a bit lost and unorganized at the end.
It's ok when it's one game but this has been basically happening for years now in big games.
And conversely when we were making final fours, we DID have those guys. It took what three game winning shots from Harrison in 14 to make a final four? Brandon Knight in 11.......same thing.
Who is that on this team? That needs to be figured out. Because what happened was we were up 6 with a chance to close this thing out and although we played well up to that point, we kind of looked a bit lost and unorganized at the end.
Won't change my opinion at all. We played against a very veteran, successful team - and, in just our 3rd game of the year, with a bunch of freshmen, and no true post player, we battled to the very end.
If you think winning the 3rd game of the year is more important than finding out the true grit, competitiveness and toughness of your team, then you don't know basketball.
Call if morale victories if you want. But for me, just really proud of what I saw from our Cats last night
Right, I think everyone is viewing last night as a continuation of the last 3 years. But it's not.
A lot of things were very different
If we lose all of our ranked games again this year, I'll shut up and we should run Cal out of town. But last night's play was so different. I left thinking we're going to be a top 5-10 team come year's end.
In a month we will have also played or will be close to playing Miami and UNC. Those are the games I care about. In the meantime, we need to demolish the rest.
I don't think we can conclude they won't be great players at this level. They had bad games. Players have bad games. Especially as Freshmen.
Steph Curry has bad games. Dame Lillard has bad games.
If we watch them do this vs the next handful of good opponents, then ok. They're not as good as we thought. But 1 bad night, that can happen to anyone.
Are you conveniently forgetting how Cal raised our program from the horrible days of Tubby and BCG? Geez, all the cockroaches flowed out of the woodwork when our guys ran out of steam and lost a close game against #1 team without our bigs. You guys just couldn't wait, could you. Must have scared you to death when there was a chance we might win, and mess with your agenda.
In the end with the players, this was always going to be an upset. It would have had to be done in the same fashion that nearly every single upset in college basketball happens........by shooting and making a boatload of threes.
We did that in the first half and thus was up at the half. We didn't do that in the second half and lost the game.
I think KU ended up shooting a high % from 3 than we did. Which if you don't have an inside game, that can't happen.
We did that in the first half and thus was up at the half. We didn't do that in the second half and lost the game.
I think KU ended up shooting a high % from 3 than we did. Which if you don't have an inside game, that can't happen.
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