Finally watched last 12 mins of Wisc game last night
- Thread starter ulismyman
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I was so sorry I opened this thread...read a couple of posts on page one and then skipped to the end.
Like fishing stories...the myth's gets bigger as time goes on.
If I were a MOD, I'd make this post # 2...don't make people have to read 120+ posts to find common sense.
Good post SOS
Hall had a lot of supporters but also a lot of people who thought he was a great recruiter but an average bench coach. When he lost to Crum in 83 and then imploded in 84 against Georgetown, the second group doubled in size. This was after an Elite Eight in 83 and a Final Four in 84.
Cal likewise has a lot of supporters but also a lot of people who think he's a great recruiter but an average bench coach. When he lost to UConn in 14 and Wisconsin in 15, the second group doubled in size. This was after a championship game in 14 and a Final Four in 15.
It's not a perfect analogy....Hall wasn't as consistently successful as Cal....but Cal is starting to hear the same things Hall heard.
I haven't watched so much as a highlight since turned the game off that night. I remember being in about an 8 point hole in first half but digging out mostly by half. Announcers excited for other team all night as usual, can hear it in their voice.
Behind again in 2nd half only to come back again and take the lead late, huge relief thought we had it won, then the floor fell out from under us in last minutes. At least we didn't lose to Duke in the final, if Wiscy got an unfair whistle in title game, imagine if it was UK.
My biggest fear in tourney was that Aaron Harrison would try to hard to be a Hero again after hitting 3 game winners in last years tourney, but I didn't think Wiscy could even keep it close enough to matter. Wiscy was nowhere near the better team than UK, but outplayed them that night and that's all that matters in the end.
Behind again in 2nd half only to come back again and take the lead late, huge relief thought we had it won, then the floor fell out from under us in last minutes. At least we didn't lose to Duke in the final, if Wiscy got an unfair whistle in title game, imagine if it was UK.
My biggest fear in tourney was that Aaron Harrison would try to hard to be a Hero again after hitting 3 game winners in last years tourney, but I didn't think Wiscy could even keep it close enough to matter. Wiscy was nowhere near the better team than UK, but outplayed them that night and that's all that matters in the end.
Just a minor point, but being a huge fan of Hall's now and during that time, I think the knock on him was two fold. His biggest problem was that he wasn't Adolph Rupp. No man alive then or now could have filled those shoes. The second biggest problem was his style of play. Rupp's teams were often a thing of beauty. Whatever they did, they did better than anyone they faced. They passed better, they shot prettier, they ran faster, etc, etc. On the other hand, Hall did not award points for style. He was quite happy to bludgeon your team into the cracks in the floor. The '78 team was brutal save for Macy. Lot of folks didn't like the style. I think Hall's style was ahead of its time and to a degree shaped the SEC into what it is today. A big rough conference. Maybe too much so.
Otherwise I think you are spot on.
To those that think Cal is an average bench coach, I'd challenge anyone to match his record with back courts that are consistently so young. The guy takes green athletes and makes NBA marketable players out of them in a matter of months in the stiffest of competition. No average bench coach could do that consistently. When he started John Wall, I privately remarked that there was NO WAY a freshman would ever succeed on the main stage in division 1 basketball. Cal proved me dead wrong. An average coach would absolutely pancake if faced with that year to year.
Goose Givens 41 against Duke in title game was stylish enough for the whole year!
edit: How many players have scored 40+ in the title game? I can't find it on Google
It was a "title or bust" season. Even opposing fans were saying the NCAA should just go ahead and mail the trophy to us...especially after the Kansas game. Many on here was also talking 40-0 when the twins decided to come back.
It was a once in a lifetime opportunity and we blew it.
It was a once in a lifetime opportunity and we blew it.
Disclaimer I didn't read one post of this thread.
That said get the heck over it... it is in the past. Damn it hurts I know. When the final buzzard sounded I didn't turn ESPN on for 3 weeks. Look forward to this amazing class we have coming in.. and in a month lets roll!!!!
That said get the heck over it... it is in the past. Damn it hurts I know. When the final buzzard sounded I didn't turn ESPN on for 3 weeks. Look forward to this amazing class we have coming in.. and in a month lets roll!!!!
I don't feel that way at all. There are two ways to go 40 - 0. Be extremely, unbelievably lucky. We weren't. Or, your worst game ever must be better than everyone else that is on your schedule's best game ever. The Cats are season makers. For most clubs, beat them, nothing else matters. We get everyone's best. No team in history has ever played their best every single game, game in, game out.
Let me try to demonstrate this another way that makes the above observation down right scary.
Playing fast and loose with the math involved, essentially the chance of losing at least 1 game in a 40 game season is 1 - the probability that you win them all. If you are 99% certain to win an individual game, then (1-.99^40) = .33 or 33% chance you lose at least one game in 40. If you are 95% certain to win an individual game then (1-.95^40) = .87 or 87% chance you lose at least one game. I freely acknowledge that the probability of winning varies widely from game to game. That said, just how many teams on our schedule do you think we could played a 100 times and win them all? Even 99 - 1 leaves you with an expectation of 99%
Bottom line is that even if we were very very good, the chance to go undefeated in 40 games is poor. Our "once in a lifetime opportunity" was quite a long shot after all. What has folks so upset is not that we got beat. Its when we got beat, so close to the end.
It's time to let it go.
Excellent post, and I agree almost 100%.
Here's where things get hazy, though: when a team starts to accumulate losses at a certain level. You're absolutely right that it's hard to call a season that ends with a team playing for the FF anything but a good year (even if they lose), but if a team stretches together a run of Elite 8 losses, things start to get defined by that, and it takes some of the sheen off the quality of individual seasons. You saw this with Tubby Smith when he lost his 3rd Elite 8 game in a row, and you saw it in a big way in other sports with teams like the Buffalo Bills and Atlanta Braves, where simply making the Super Bowl or making the playoffs (or World Series, even) ceased to have a lot of meaning.
Cal's at that point with the FF. It's not fair, but it's inevitable. Certain people are just not going to be able to define seasons by anything other than disappointing FF losses. What those people need to realize is that the vast majority of seasons, for every team, in every sport, end in disappointment, and that having that disappointment while getting really close to a title is a hell of a lot better than the alternative.
And the list of schools that can boast 4 FF's in 5 years is really, really short. In 77 years of NCAA tournaments, it reads Cincinnati, UCLA, Duke, and now (and not until this year) UK. That's it. In fact, there are only 25 other schools that have made 4 FF appearances in their histories. 8 of those have exactly 4, meaning Cal could personally beat all but 17 schools in just a 6 year period.
Exactly! yet some on here, KBF, SOS, insist we are TRASHING the team and, or Cal. Evidently their definition of trashing, is any form criticism. The sunshine pumpers troll these threads searching for anything that appears to be critical of Cal, then gather like buzzards to a dead carcass to bash away, they really are funny to watch.
Or MAYBE, the same people appear in thread after thread, posting the same criticisms of our coach, over and over.
"Sunshine Pumpers" is such a funny name. Look around buddy; there's lots of sunshine these days. Billy Clyde ain't walking through that door.
Most of the people labeled Sunshine Pumpers are fully cognizant of the fact that Cal and the players all make mistakes. They even made mistakes in all of the 38 straight games we won.
I guess I find it entertaining that the cause so many have chosen to invest in around here is their right to criticise our Hall of Fame coach. Some folks just skew negative. I get it.
No, you don't get it at all. You are not even close to getting it. There is no other coach I want at UK right now, other than Cal. How you can get trashing him from that statement is beyond me. My point is (for the millionth time) it is the same posters that gather to flog any poster that has some issues with Cal's game plans, or game management that I post about. They are like The Gestapo going from thread to thread trying to silence any criticism they see about Cal or some player. Every UK fan does not see things through blue tinted lenses.
Did I say you trashed him? I could just as easily say that the same group of posters goes from thread to thread, turning each thread into a chance to criticise Cal's coaching. And I mean random threads that have little if anything to do with Cal's coaching.
I enjoy a balanced discussion of all UK related topics. What we often get around here is illogical, repetitive, and childish.
If I were a Bama fan I'd be pissed at the game against Ohio St no doubt about it. But if I were you I suppose I would be like "Guys we made the final four lets just be happy and take our ribbon and go home its been a great ride".
Alabama fans are idiots...so yes. That said, apples to oranges as Saban has 3 titles there (and 4 overall) to Cal's one. I think some are starting to question if Cal will be able to win multiple titles at UK now after last season. Not me personally, but many on this thread I'm sure. A lot of those guys are Cal haters, have hated him and his method since day 1, but not all of them. Some are just UK fans wondering if anyone other than Rupp can win more than 1 title at UK.
As far as other points in this thread...I agree with the one poster who thought Wisconsin was dead meat as well with 4-5 minutes to go. I think it is typical RR Monday Morning QB BS about the gameplan on those possessions. UK has ran the shot clock down time and time again the past 2 seasons and got a good shoot up with under 5 on the clock...including some big made shots in NCAA Tourney games. We have to remember the Harrisons were getting to the rack at will against Wisconsin...so I'm not sure why they did not attack, attack, attack when the clock got low. I know Andrew shot a shot kinda in the lane on the first shot clock violation (still not sure how he missed it that badly) but the other two were not great shots either and felt rushed. It was surprising to see them panic (or whatever happened) in that stretch. I think the gameplan being to get it to Towns was cliche at htat point, and everyone, including Wisconsin, knew it and was not gonna let that happen. It is almost like the team freaked as that option was not there, and forgot how to play team basketball under pressure as they did so well (some players for 2 seasons as I said).
I still say Cal should have called a TO to set up a specific high percentage play to get UK a pivotal score to go up 6-7 points...but I am not one of the people on here who fault the strategy overall. If UK hits one or two of those shots with the clock running down...no one on here is saying jack crap about "stall ball" or anything of the like. Wisconsin runs the clock down a ton...but scores late in the clock with good shot selection. UK has been able to do the same thing over and over again a lot of the past couple of seasons (Call it the Harrisons' era), so that is why I was so shocked they had 3 straight horrific possessions under those circumstances. Of course, people need to remember that UK went on to not score for another THREE possessions against Wisconsin after those original 3 killers. 6 straight against the most efficient offense ever according to Kenpom? Not gonna get it done. UK gave the refs a chance to help Wisconsin win the game by doing what they did on offense...the refs saw their shot and they took it with the BS no shot clock violation on them, and the 2 very questionable fouls on UK when Dekker and Kaminsky drove with under a minute to play. The last one, when UK was down 1 and they blew the whistle late was the season ender of course. I digress, I am not enjoying remembering all this nonsense.
Officiating played a huge role down the stretch of that game.
After Dekker's three, Trey Lyles was called for an offensive foul. I think most have forgotten that. That play allowed Wisconsin to stretch it to 2 possessions.
Then there were 2 ticky tack bailout fouls that allowed Wisconsin to keep their working margin.
Down 3, Towns drew a foul, when the best result for us would have been a kickout 3. Of course the damage was compounded when Towns missed one of the free throws, keeping the margin at 2 instead of 1, allowing Wisconsin to push back out to a 2 possession lead.
I never hear anybody say that Trey shouldn't have charged, or that the ref shouldn't have called it.
I never hear anyone complain that Towns should have been more clutch and hit both free throws. Both of those crucial plays inside the last 2 minutes contributed to our loss.
I only hear Cal and the twins blew it.
After Dekker's three, Trey Lyles was called for an offensive foul. I think most have forgotten that. That play allowed Wisconsin to stretch it to 2 possessions.
Then there were 2 ticky tack bailout fouls that allowed Wisconsin to keep their working margin.
Down 3, Towns drew a foul, when the best result for us would have been a kickout 3. Of course the damage was compounded when Towns missed one of the free throws, keeping the margin at 2 instead of 1, allowing Wisconsin to push back out to a 2 possession lead.
I never hear anybody say that Trey shouldn't have charged, or that the ref shouldn't have called it.
I never hear anyone complain that Towns should have been more clutch and hit both free throws. Both of those crucial plays inside the last 2 minutes contributed to our loss.
I only hear Cal and the twins blew it.
I live down here. Yeah, Alabama has freaks too and the Internet gives them the ability to display that freaky nature to the world. They don't understand football really well but the success of the football team plays a huge role in their own sense of worth. Then you have the gamblers that lost money and are not happy. Overall its a small percentage of fans but they can whine REALLY loud and worse, they can type.
The similarities with our KY fan base is scary.
I watched a different game on the treadmill the other day - it was the KU game, early in the season. Ordinarly, one thing you can count on with Cal is his team will peak at the right time. 2011. 2014. etc. This team didn't do that. I thought we looked a little dull late in the year (relative only to ourselves early in the year) and so I told others - "watch how different they look once the NCAA starts." I thought they'd be energized to have the regular season behind them, with the ultimate goal now in sight. And it just didn't happen. It occurs to me - I wonder if starting the year (effectively) so early, last summer in the Bahamas, plays any role there.
If the goal is to start the year in mid-season form, then playing together in August is a good way to do that. But if you're trying to peak in March/April, that may be a lot to ask.....
If the goal is to start the year in mid-season form, then playing together in August is a good way to do that. But if you're trying to peak in March/April, that may be a lot to ask.....
That's a reasonable point. The longer season could wear more on younger players and we are definitely young. I think it is a reasonable observation that the team seemed to play better earlier in the year. Whether that was "peaking" or whether the team lost some cohesion or confidence when Alex went down, I'm not sure.
I don't think the term "sunshine pumpers" can work in the context of UK basketball, most of the time and especially right now. I think that term is meant to describe those who are constantly downplaying mistakes and shortcomings, always putting a smiling face on a bad situation. So, it works, for example, with UK football under Joker, or UK basketball under Clyde. If you're getting the top rated class every year, spending most of your time in the top 10, going 22-4 in the NCAAT and getting to the Final Four repeatedly......there really is a lot of sun shine. You're not pretending it's sunny while it's raining......
I will give Duke credit for one thing....they used their typical methods to turn the game around against Wisconsin, but once they had the Badgers down, they made sure they stayed down. That's the one thing Duke did that we didn't.
And the one thing I noticed about our team those last four games was that they were tight. It was noticed by the talking heads like Skip Bayless (I know, I know). We looked tight in the first two games at the Yum Center. We jumped on WV so we never had to worry about anything. But we looked like a different team against Notre Dame and Wisconsin than we had all year. You can blame Cal if you want to. I think he should get part of the blame because I guarantee you he was tight and it rubbed off on the team a little. But I blame most of it on the sheer fact that we had a bullseye on us the size of a helicopter landing pad. Just like the Patriots in 2007. That team blew people out all year long and then the last four games they played were all tough ones.
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