Eddie Sutton HOF Candidacy - Open Letter

[BlueNotes]

Giving you all a heads up, this was written by Doug Gottlieb

CBS Link

But even if you do not want click on that and read it (it's a letter advocating inclusion), it's still a good question for this board:
Do you think Eddie Sutton belongs in the HOF, why or why not?

Pete Rose thinks he should be in!

I don't have a problem with Eddie getting in - performance - and he didn't know about the package (and in fact, I don't think it was ever proved that ANYONE at UK knew about the package. The money (which NO ONE TO THIS DAY CAN ACCOUNT FOR) apparently was put in while it was on its way to Emery

 

[KentuckyWildcat4Life]

You'll never get a UK fan to probably agree to it but he won a lot away from UK. Yup, he failed at UK and put us on probation but Kentucky isn't for anybody.

That blip at UK shouldn't keep him out if people truly think he belongs but finding a Cat fan to endorse that will be like finding a golf ball in this snow

 

[preacherfan]

Not true at all. Very nice man and the best x&o coach ever at UK in the last 5 minutes of a tight game. So close to a dynasty type run.

Not true at all?

 

[catntn]

HOF should ask Eddie about Cyril Baptiste during his coaching days at Creighton. Eddie is a f------ low life. No way should he be in the HOF. Maybe the HOS (Hall of Shame).

 

[nookam]

Well Doug got UK and Cal in there didn't he? No mention of John Wooden's Sam Gilbert we all know about, or the cheating that began under Dean Smith and was running smooth through Roy Williams.
We know of unpunished Duke scandals under K. The NCAA gets a boner getting a few coaches and programs. How UNC remains unpunished as well as UL, not to mention selective enforcement. KU and Self have run amuck nearly every year without punishment. McLemore, Alexander, back to Arthur.
Screw it, put Eddie in.

 

[mcbarrycat]

No way, almost got us the death penalty

 

[clevenger32]

Sutton deserves it. I never harbored the bitterness some UK fans do against him. The issues at UK were bigger than him and he simply wasn't capable of handling this program especially with his alcoholism.

Alcoholism ruined his opportunity at UK. Lots went on that he did not control and would have controlled if alcohol was not guiding him. There were city managers and and other law enforcement officials who really took care of him during his time at UK, and my guess is that it was like that at his other stops...None the less he was an extremely good coach. He turned Arkansas into a nothing basketball program...nothing...into a final four team. He was successful at the JC level at Southern Idaho, Oklahoma State etc...he just missed the final four one year at UK cause he had to play LSU a 4th time after all ready beating them 3 times that year.

 

[Katwatcher]

Sutton deserves it. I never harbored the bitterness some UK fans do against him. The issues at UK were bigger than him and he simply wasn't capable of handling this program especially with his alcoholism.

This isn't about the issues at UK being bigger than him or being an alcoholic, they are just excuses. Its the fact that he was the head coach and was found to be cheating and he has not received the support to put him in Hall of Fame.

Its not like he was sent to prison or fined heavily. Anytime you are caught cheating to get an advantage over your opponents, you are not supposed to be honored or rewarded. jmho

 

[clevenger32]

This isn't about the issues at UK being bigger than him or being an alcoholic, they are just excuses. Its the fact that he was the head coach and was found to be cheating and he has not received the support to put him in Hall of Fame.

Its not like he was sent to prison or fined heavily. Anytime you are caught cheating to get an advantage over your opponents, you are not supposed to be honored or rewarded. jmho

See a number of coaches already in the Hall of Fame including some that did not penalized like Dean E. Smith

 

[Mojocat]

I can't tell if Doug Gotlieb dislikes UK or not. Our fans accuse every media person of hating UK, which is crazy of course. But some of them do - other than Duke, we have more haters than any program. Anyway, if Gotlieb is soured on UK, I've always thought the roots of that are in Sutton's scandal here. That's why he hates us.....

 

[irishcat1965]

This isn't about the issues at UK being bigger than him or being an alcoholic, they are just excuses. Its the fact that he was the head coach and was found to be cheating and he has not received the support to put him in Hall of Fame.

Its not like he was sent to prison or fined heavily. Anytime you are caught cheating to get an advantage over your opponents, you are not supposed to be honored or rewarded. jmho

He wasn't caught cheating. And he was not found to be cheating by the NCAA. But he was in charge of the program and therefore deservedly suffered the consequences.

 

[Katwatcher]

See a number of coaches already in the Hall of Fame including some that did not penalized like Dean E. Smith

I'm sure there are but that doesn't make it right. I feel the same way about anyone cheating whether they get by with it or not.

 

[WindyCityWildcat]

 

[Katwatcher]

He wasn't caught cheating. And he was not found to be cheating by the NCAA. But he was in charge of the program and therefore deservedly suffered the consequences.

The NCAA uncovered violations so egregious that it seriously considered hitting the Wildcats with the "death penalty", which would have shut down the entire basketball program (as opposed to simply being banned from postseason play) for up to two years.

 

[preacherfan]

In all honesty, I don't get the logic that says that Sutton was too drunk to know what was going on in the program but was completely sober enough to coach UK to victory after victory?

To me, that is similar to the excuse given for Paterno that he was too old to know what constituted child abuse but he wasn't too old to coach a winning major D-1 football team.

 

[2Adulterers]

In all honesty, I don't get the logic that says that Sutton was too drunk to know what was going on in the program but was completely sober enough to coach UK to victory after victory?

To me, that is similar to the excuse given for Paterno that he was too old to know what constituted child abuse but he wasn't too old to coach a winning major D-1 football team.

In the 1986 UK-Uavel game won by UK 85-51 I assure you he was well oiled at 11:00 A.M. cannot say about every game but he had great assistants.James Dickey,Doug Barnes,Dwayne Casey.

 

[Poetax]

Names Cal in his list of runs ins with the NCAA and leaves out Roy Williams.

FWIW - I couldn't endorse him either, for the same reason the rest of you state.

But I think it does open up a good debate - would it be much different in allowing Pete Rose into the Baseball HOF?

But Pete didn't cheat, he bet on the Reds, its actually really stupid that he won't get a chance to get into the Hall because those who took drugs so that they could hit 70 homeruns are the ones that they should never let in.

 

[shutzhund]

Sutton deserves it. I never harbored the bitterness some UK fans do against him. The issues at UK were bigger than him and he simply wasn't capable of handling this program especially with his alcoholism.

Players get punished and he walks away without a scratch. Not HOF material in my opinion.

 

[preacherfan]

In the 1986 UK-Uavel game won by UK 85-51 I assure you he was well oiled at 11:00 A.M. cannot say about every game but he had great assistants.James Dickey,Doug Barnes,Dwayne Casey.

Okay, that makes sense that basically you are saying that the assistants picked up the slack when he was maybe not 100%.

 

[2Adulterers]

Okay, that makes sense that basically you are saying that the assistants picked up the slack when he was maybe not 100%.

exactly..he was cognizant of his surroundings..but felt no pain.

 

[Bkocats]

But Pete didn't cheat, he bet on the Reds, its actually really stupid that he won't get a chance to get into the Hall because those who took drugs so that they could hit 70 homeruns are the ones that they should never let in.

to be honest, I don't follow baseball, and I only know about Pete Rose peripherally. I was given to understand he cheated; it's my own fault for not researching it to find out what really happened.

 

[preacherfan]

to be honest, I don't follow baseball, and I only know about Pete Rose peripherally. I was given to understand he cheated; it's my own fault for not researching it to find out what really happened.

Rose never cheated. But, he did bet on baseball and in the eyes of baseball that is the unpardonable sin. Why someone in his position would bet on baseball, knowing the rules, is beyond understanding. It isn't like he didn't have enough money to live.

 

[irishcat1965]

The NCAA uncovered violations so egregious that it seriously considered hitting the Wildcats with the "death penalty", which would have shut down the entire basketball program (as opposed to simply being banned from postseason play) for up to two years.

Provide a link that the NCAA tied anything directly to him. You can't.

 

[catntn]

Said it before and I'll say it again. He is low life scum....out for himself only.

 

[preacherfan]

Provide a link that the NCAA tied anything directly to him. You can't.

True, they didn't. But, the NCAA did eventually change the rules so that the HC coach couldn't get off like that in the future. Under current rules, he would be held responsible, as it should be. I put Roy Williams in that category as well. For him to say that he had no knowledge of massive wrongdoing under his watch is not believable.

 

[2Adulterers]

Players get punished and he walks away without a scratch. Not HOF material in my opinion.

Jim Calhoun in HOF check his resume..

 

[bthaunert]

We can debate the UK stuff all day (I think he 100% knew what was going on), but no one has mentioned how he closed out his career...what a scum. Work with the AD at USF to oust the current coach mid season, make up some lame story that the coach took a leave of absence on his own, then swoop in and get 2 wins to get to 800 wins...totally classless.

 

[63in62]

I really don't disagree with anything you've said. I think the case is easier to make to leave Sutton out. His accomplishments are significant but not top drawer. His cheating could be construed to have aided those accomplishments. Simply unacceptable.

Rose is another matter. He was a stellar baseball player and without equal when it came to getting on base. He didn't bet against his team and I know of no evidence that he threw any game (though with him, you never know). That said, you are correct and he did, in fact, cheat. My preference is to see him in, though his picture could be above the urinal for all I care. I can accept leaving him out as well.

Why did you include that totally unnecessary "(though with him you never know)"? Any body that knew him, which you for obviously did not, knew he would never do anything against his own team especially throw a game. For me, I have no problem with Pete betting on baseball because he never bet on a Cincinnati game and it only heightened his incredible desire to win. He was a gladiator. As for Sutton, he was a piece of crap drunkard that actually got filmed peeing in the grade school parking lot next to his home one night because he didn't want to walk upstairs to the bathroom. maybe if he gets inducted they can play that at the ceremonies.

 

[kybassfan]

Why did you include that totally unnecessary "(though with him you never know)"? Any body that knew him, which you for obviously did not, knew he would never do anything against his own team especially throw a game. For me, I have no problem with Pete betting on baseball because he never bet on a Cincinnati game and it only heightened his incredible desire to win. He was a gladiator. As for Sutton, he was a piece of crap drunkard that actually got filmed peeing in the grade school parking lot next to his home one night because he didn't want to walk upstairs to the bathroom. maybe if he gets inducted they can play that at the ceremonies.

And you just recapped the party line from Pete Rose. That same Pete Rose that lied through his teeth for years about not betting at all. Pete was a fabulous baseball player. Pete was a sorry human being. He would and did say anything to avoid the charge. Who knows what other deception he foisted on baseball and its fans. I stand by my original post.

What you do or don't have a problem with is immaterial. Baseball has its rules. Betting on baseball was the capital crime of Pete's age.

Further, you should do your homework better. Gotta really be lazy not to find stuff like this: http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2798498

 

[Poetax]

Rose never cheated. But, he did bet on baseball and in the eyes of baseball that is the unpardonable sin. Why someone in his position would bet on baseball, knowing the rules, is beyond understanding. It isn't like he didn't have enough money to live.

He's a betaloholic. He knew the rules and after years admitted that he bet on the Reds, but always to win. It sounds like Pete, too stupid to understand that it was still a rule. But in this society today where people can forgive famous people for using italian restaurant tables for sexual acts, you would think that this could be forgiven since he didn't try lose to win money. And for those who don't like Pete, I have met him several times and yes he is an @$$, but he was a great ball player.

 

[Katwatcher]

He's a betaloholic. He knew the rules and after years admitted that he bet on the Reds, but always to win. It sounds like Pete, too stupid to understand that it was still a rule. But in this society today where people can forgive famous people for using italian restaurant tables for sexual acts, you would think that this could be forgiven since he didn't try lose to win money. And for those who don't like Pete, I have met him several times and yes he is an @$$, but he was a great ball player.

I don't think anyone is saying he wasn't a great ball player, but if he was guilty of being all the things you label him as, why should he be inducted into Hall of Fame? You can't use the excuse that others are in the Hall that did the same thing as he did. { or maybe you can }

And how anyone who knows how he bet is beyond me. A third party could have bet for him. If he lied about betting, how do you know he didn't lie about betting to lose.jmho

 

[preacherfan]

Why did you include that totally unnecessary "(though with him you never know)"? Any body that knew him, which you for obviously did not, knew he would never do anything against his own team especially throw a game. For me, I have no problem with Pete betting on baseball because he never bet on a Cincinnati game and it only heightened his incredible desire to win. He was a gladiator. As for Sutton, he was a piece of crap drunkard that actually got filmed peeing in the grade school parking lot next to his home one night because he didn't want to walk upstairs to the bathroom. maybe if he gets inducted they can play that at the ceremonies.

My best friend is in Gamblers Anonymous. So, I do have a lot of exposure to people who have a problem that is so bad that they need help. A common saying that is generally true is "Gamblers are liars." I've heard every story imaginable for how some of these people got the money to gamble and the ways they did it. BTW, my friend had to go so far as sign papers to have himself banned from casinos so he couldn't go back and do it again.

The point is that Pete was so deeply addicted to gambling that in all honesty, nobody does know how far he truly sank into that abyss.

 

[kybassfan]

My best friend is in Gamblers Anonymous. So, I do have a lot of exposure to people who have a problem that is so bad that they need help. A common saying that is generally true is "Gamblers are liars." I've heard every story imaginable for how some of these people got the money to gamble and the ways they did it. BTW, my friend had to go so far as sign papers to have himself banned from casinos so he couldn't go back and do it again.

The point is that Pete was so deeply addicted to gambling that in all honesty, nobody does know how far he truly sank into that abyss.

I wonder if Pete had shown some remorse and confessed early on, things might have been different for him. I hear that gambling is a compulsion as strong as any alcohol or drug addiction.

 

[Poetax]

I don't think anyone is saying he wasn't a great ball player, but if he was guilty of being all the things you label him as, why should he be inducted into Hall of Fame? You can't use the excuse that others are in the Hall that did the same thing as he did. { or maybe you can }

And how anyone who knows how he bet is beyond me. A third party could have bet for him. If he lied about betting, how do you know he didn't lie about betting to lose.jmho

Ty Cobb may have been the most hated man in baseball back in the time. It was said that he sharpened his cleats to help him steal bases. And Mickey Mantle was an extreme alcoholic, most of his time in the pros. These men made it to the Hall of Fame because they were great ball players not because of what they were personally. Pete was a great player, and should be judged from that angle in my opinion.

 

[Katwatcher]

Ty Cobb may have been the most hated man in baseball back in the time. It was said that he sharpened his cleats to help him steal bases. And Mickey Mantle was an extreme alcoholic, most of his time in the pros. These men made it to the Hall of Fame because they were great ball players not because of what they were personally. Pete was a great player, and should be judged from that angle in my opinion.

I agree that Cobb and Mantle was voted into the Hall of Fame because they were great ball players. This thread was about those who haven't been inducted because of rule violations. Rose was not inducted because he bet on baseball. He violated the rules of baseball.
Eddie Sutton has not been inducted because he allegedly cheated or at least knew about it. He resigned under pressure and denied any wrong doing, but the NCAA found violations that nearly brought the death penalty on UK according to the news media. As far as I know Sutton was never penalized, but was in charge of the program.

My feeling is that any individual inducted should not be judged on his record alone, but also how he achieved it. jmho

 

[Poetax]

I agree that Cobb and Mantle was voted into the Hall of Fame because they were great ball players. This thread was about those who haven't been inducted because of rule violations. Rose was not inducted because he bet on baseball. He violated the rules of baseball.
Eddie Sutton has not been inducted because he allegedly cheated or at least knew about it. He resigned under pressure and denied any wrong doing, but the NCAA found violations that nearly brought the death penalty on UK according to the news media. As far as I know Sutton was never penalized, but was in charge of the program.

My feeling is that any individual inducted should not be judged on his record alone, but also how he achieved it. jmho

I see your point but I just think that if you are being judged by what you did while being in the sport, judge that and be done. I actually hold no grudges against Sutton, if he gets in he gets in.

 

[preacherfan]

I see your point but I just think that if you are being judged by what you did while being in the sport, judge that and be done. I actually hold no grudges against Sutton, if he gets in he gets in.

I admit to having a strong bias against Sutton for what he did to UK and the way he once treated my sister but, even apart from that, I looked at his coaching resume and wasn't really that impressed. I am not sure we can put every coach who wins a lot of games into the HOF.

The question has to be asked, "If he resume is impressive, why isn't he alread in or, at the very least, nominated to be in? Why is a former player the only voice out there saying that he should be in?

 

[Poetax]

I admit to having a strong bias against Sutton for what he did to UK and the way he once treated my sister but, even apart from that, I looked at his coaching resume and wasn't really that impressed. I am not sure we can put every coach who wins a lot of games into the HOF.

The question has to be asked, "If he resume is impressive, why isn't he alread in or, at the very least, nominated to be in? Why is a former player the only voice out there saying that he should be in?

This will be one decision that I won't lose any sleep over no matter which way it goes.

 

[Katwatcher]

I see your point but I just think that if you are being judged by what you did while being in the sport, judge that and be done. I actually hold no grudges against Sutton, if he gets in he gets in.

Guess we will have to agree that we disagree. I just can't see voting anyone into Hall of Fame because of their excellent record if they cheated or broke the rules to help acquire that excellent record. Some times its difficult to prove without a doubt.

If Sutton had held his ground and give his side of story, I would have listened but he didn't do that. For so many shady things that happened while he was in charge, I can't except the "I didn't know " excuse. There was a lot more going on than the money envelope.

I understand that these coaches and players did some great and honorable things in their career, but the buck has to stop somewhere. You have to be responsible and accountable for your own actions. jmho

 

[Poetax]

Guess we will have to agree that we disagree. I just can't see voting anyone into Hall of Fame because of their excellent record if they cheated or broke the rules to help acquire that excellent record. Some times its difficult to prove without a doubt.

If Sutton had held his ground and give his side of story, I would have listened but he didn't do that. For so many shady things that happened while he was in charge, I can't except the "I didn't know " excuse. There was a lot more going on than the money envelope.

I understand that these coaches and players did some great and honorable things in their career, but the buck has to stop somewhere. You have to be responsible and accountable for your own actions. jmho

Yeah I can respect that but our administration threw the program under the bus, you can bet North Carolina administration wouldn't have done that, lol.