Eddie Sutton HOF Candidacy - Open Letter

[Katwatcher]

Pete Rose was arguably the best player of his age. He held the career hits record and those career records in baseball are among the most impressive in all of sports. He was also a pathetic human being.

Sutton was a respectable coach. He was also a miserable drunk.

Aside from their frailties, the contributions each made to their sport are drastically different. Not sure their cases are much alike.

Their cases may not be much alike, but they all have one thing in common. They all cheated, violated the rules or whatever term you want to use.

They were not forced into doing this nor was their age a factor other than they were old enough to know better.

Some people have a hard time of recognizing exactly what they have done.

They not only cheated but they were in a position of teaching the younger players right from wrong. The message being sent to most college athletes today is do whatever it takes to be successful regardless of who you may hurt in the process.

In my opinion the colleges and pro teams all have a certain degree of blame here in that everything is based on "winning, whatever it takes".

I have no problem in saying I don't think they should be honored by being placed in Hall of Fame when their fame was cheating. jmho

 

[kybassfan]

Their cases may not be much alike, but they all have one thing in common. They all cheated, violated the rules or whatever term you want to use.

They were not forced into doing this nor was their age a factor other than they were old enough to know better.

Some people have a hard time of recognizing exactly what they have done.

They not only cheated but they were in a position of teaching the younger players right from wrong. The message being sent to most college athletes today is do whatever it takes to be successful regardless of who you may hurt in the process.

In my opinion the colleges and pro teams all have a certain degree of blame here in that everything is based on "winning, whatever it takes".

I have no problem in saying I don't think they should be honored by being placed in Hall of Fame when their fame was cheating. jmho

I really don't disagree with anything you've said. I think the case is easier to make to leave Sutton out. His accomplishments are significant but not top drawer. His cheating could be construed to have aided those accomplishments. Simply unacceptable.

Rose is another matter. He was a stellar baseball player and without equal when it came to getting on base. He didn't bet against his team and I know of no evidence that he threw any game (though with him, you never know). That said, you are correct and he did, in fact, cheat. My preference is to see him in, though his picture could be above the urinal for all I care. I can accept leaving him out as well.

 

[2Adulterers]

Sutton was not a miserable drunk he was really pleasant..sort of oblivious to what was going on around him..He was never named in any NCAA charges but resigned to save face..Of course Dwayne Casey got seven million dollars from Emery Air Freight in an out of court settlement ..so he was vindicated also.

 

[yoshukai]

Sutton was not a miserable drunk he was really pleasant..sort of oblivious to what was going on around him..He was never named in any NCAA charges but resigned to save face..Of course Dwayne Casey got seven million dollars from Emery Air Freight in an out of court settlement ..so he was vindicated also.

Because of the loss of trust factor , the incident played a large role in Emery going out of business .

 

[kybassfan]

Sutton was not a miserable drunk he was really pleasant..sort of oblivious to what was going on around him..He was never named in any NCAA charges but resigned to save face..Of course Dwayne Casey got seven million dollars from Emery Air Freight in an out of court settlement ..so he was vindicated also.

I think I was the one that made the statement he was miserable. I agree that he was, by most accounts, a pleasant person. However, he did end up in rehab. I never heard of anyone that ended up in rehab that wasn't struggling with health, job performance or other problems. They say you have to "hit bottom" before you can rise up. I expect the bottom is pretty miserable.

No argument on the Emery issue. Unfortunately, it gave them an opportunity to open Pandora's box. Once they got the lid open, what happened or didn't happen with Emery was irrelevant. One thing that case illustrated is the relevance of "due process" by the NCAA. The NCAA was not bound by due process so they just killed us, (Kentucky). Casey, being a US citizen had rights. Good lesson in the difference between an institution and an individual.

 

[JohnnyGentle]

he deserves it more than some coaches who are already enshrined with his success at different schools. probably more than chaney, who i love, and who did win a d2 national title and went to five regional finals. definitely more than herb magee whose teams haven't been a factor nationally on the d2 level for 45 years

and did he run a dirtier program than wooden or roy williams? f to the no

i just hate gottlieb and think there are too many college coaches in the hall of fame. i don't even think cal should be inducted yet, with 10+ years of coaching ahead of him

 

[2Adulterers]

I think I was the one that made the statement he was miserable. I agree that he was, by most accounts, a pleasant person. However, he did end up in rehab. I never heard of anyone that ended up in rehab that wasn't struggling with health, job performance or other problems. They say you have to "hit bottom" before you can rise up. I expect the bottom is pretty miserable.

No argument on the Emery issue. Unfortunately, it gave them an opportunity to open Pandora's box. Once they got the lid open, what happened or didn't happen with Emery was irrelevant. One thing that case illustrated is the relevance of "due process" by the NCAA. The NCAA was not bound by due process so they just killed us, (Kentucky). Casey, being a US citizen had rights. Good lesson in the difference between an institution and an individual.

David Roselle sold Casey down the river as the scapegoat..he never put money in an envelope..Then Roselle ran like a scalded dog to Delaware because he couldn't take the heat..Jerk..

 

[railroadkat_1]

John Chaney's in, and he never made a Final Four

Chaney did threaten to kill coach Cal in a press conference!

 

[BlueBomb]

I say put the man in. Whether you like it or not, he was a damn good coach.

Personally, I have a bigger problem with what Pitino did than Sutton. Pitino returned to coach UK's most hated rival. Sutton just didn't have nads to stand up to UK boosters and stop what had already been happening for years. I choose not to judge Sutton for his demons. Instead I can now (years later) easily put aside my disdain for him being at the UK helm when the NCAA came crashing down -- and recognize his coaching prowess.

JMO

 

[kybassfan]

he deserves it more than some coaches who are already enshrined with his success at different schools. probably more than chaney, who i love, and who did win a d2 national title and went to five regional finals. definitely more than herb magee whose teams haven't been a factor nationally on the d2 level for 45 years

and did he run a dirtier program than wooden or roy williams? f to the no

i just hate gottlieb and think there are too many college coaches in the hall of fame. i don't even think cal should be inducted yet, with 10+ years of coaching ahead of him

Dean Smith and Roy Williams definitely should be in. They raise the bar for cheating to unprecedented levels. You have to be impressed with their ability to defraud and make a mockery of the entire NCAA.

 

[kennywalker34]

Agree with this. He has the credentials and it's not like all the guys currently in the HOF were Saints.

Well said..

 

[kennywalker34]

Agree with this. He has the credentials and it's not like all the guys currently in the HOF were Saints.

Mr. Scott now that I have signed up for this board after reading it for a very long time. I can now personally thank you for your website.

 

[preacherfan]

Sutton was not a miserable drunk he was really pleasant..sort of oblivious to what was going on around him..He was never named in any NCAA charges but resigned to save face..Of course Dwayne Casey got seven million dollars from Emery Air Freight in an out of court settlement ..so he was vindicated also.

Casey was never vindicated. Winning a lawsuit again Emery and being vindicated are very different things.

BTW, my experience with Sutton wasn't pleasant either. The guy was a complete jerk, IMO. I am not the only person with that opinion/experience either.

 

[crestcat]

If Sutton hadn't been the coach when it all came tumbling down, somebody else would have been. The corruption was here before Sutton and it would have fell under its own weight sooner or later. We have run a clean, tight program since, I'm thankful for that.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

Lord make my pimp-hand strong so I can properly backhand that fool for suggesting it.

 

[kybassfan]

If Sutton hadn't been the coach when it all came tumbling down, somebody else would have been. The corruption was here before Sutton and it would have fell under its own weight sooner or later. We have run a clean, tight program since, I'm thankful for that.

Kinda makes me wonder if we need to put Sandy Bell's name in the rafters.

 

[kybassfan]

Casey was never vindicated. Winning a lawsuit again Emery and being vindicated are very different things.

BTW, my experience with Sutton wasn't pleasant either. The guy was a complete jerk, IMO. I am not the only person with that opinion/experience either.

I think I understand his point. Vindication (or acquittal, I suppose) would have been making the NCAA retract its statement. Casey stood to gain little by forcing that as I don't recall him been "black listed" by the NCAA (maybe he was and let it stand to aid the Emery case, just can't recall). Going after Emery and gaining the reward he did certainly led to satisfaction, I think, if not vindication.

The big problem here is that guilty or not, that Emery case got the lid off the box. After that, you know how auditors are, given long enough and enough access, they'll find something. I look back at those times and I think about North Carolina now and I wonder how can North Carolina ever be allowed on the court again. We stole the candy wrapper from the baby and NC stole babies, candy, cradle and all for about 2 generations.

 

[preacherfan]

I think I understand his point. Vindication (or acquittal, I suppose) would have been making the NCAA retract its statement. Casey stood to gain little by forcing that as I don't recall him been "black listed" by the NCAA (maybe he was and let it stand to aid the Emery case, just can't recall). Going after Emery and gaining the reward he did certainly led to satisfaction, I think, if not vindication.

The big problem here is that guilty or not, that Emery case got the lid off the box. After that, you know how auditors are, given long enough and enough access, they'll find something. I look back at those times and I think about North Carolina now and I wonder how can North Carolina ever be allowed on the court again. We stole the candy wrapper from the baby and NC stole babies, candy, cradle and all for about 2 generations.

Agree with you. However, there is a common misconception that winning the lawsuit against Emery cleared him of wrongdoing. It didn't. the same is true with Tark. Yeah, he won his lawsuit against the NCAA but that didn't clear him in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Katwatcher]

If Sutton hadn't been the coach when it all came tumbling down, somebody else would have been. The corruption was here before Sutton and it would have fell under its own weight sooner or later. We have run a clean, tight program since, I'm thankful for that.

I'm not familiar with any corruption going on before Sutton. Could you elaborate more on that?

 

[crestcat]

I'm not familiar with any corruption going on before Sutton. Could you elaborate more on that?

Aren't you familiar with the Herald Leader winning their Pulitzer? About the NCAA being camped out in Lexington?

 

[kybassfan]

Agree with you. However, there is a common misconception that winning the lawsuit against Emery cleared him of wrongdoing. It didn't. the same is true with Tark. Yeah, he won his lawsuit against the NCAA but that didn't clear him in any way, shape, or form.

Very true, which is why I used the word "satisfaction". Tark in particular nailed them to the wall though a protracted lawsuit was required. He got 2.5 million out of them and a statement of "regret".

Though I made the point earlier in the thread, I think it bears mentioning again. Tark, Casey, some of the Alabama coaches have stepped on the NCAA or complicit individuals or group for their utter failure to honor due process. This contrasts heavily with the NCAA and court challenges by schools as member institutions. The courts have said backed the NCAA at every or most every turn in rulings against schools as they can do whatever they liked.

It's a very important distinction. I used to get tickled at Bobbi when he would bring up all these procedural outs for NC. At some point, those might work for Moonpie. However, for NC those are completely bogus. NC stands with a knife at their throat which is wielded by a completely chaotic, fearful and incompetent organization which answers to no one. Sure would make me nervous.

Sorry for getting us off topic.

 

[2Adulterers]

Casey was never vindicated. Winning a lawsuit again Emery and being vindicated are very different things.

BTW, my experience with Sutton wasn't pleasant either. The guy was a complete jerk, IMO. I am not the only person with that opinion/experience either.

On the contrary Casey faced no NCAA charges..Don't let the facts get in your way..I was around Sutton for 4 years..He was a gentleman to me and my family.Opinions are like.....everybody has one.

 

[2Adulterers]

Agree with you. However, there is a common misconception that winning the lawsuit against Emery cleared him of wrongdoing. It didn't. the same is true with Tark. Yeah, he won his lawsuit against the NCAA but that didn't clear him in any way, shape, or form.

Casey was not charged in any way..Roselle sold him and Eric Manuel down the river....

 

[JPScott]

Mr. Scott now that I have signed up for this board after reading it for a very long time. I can now personally thank you for your website.

Glad you enjoy it. But you didn't need to wait to register with Rivals to contact me. My email is at the bottom of every page on the site.

 

[martinsm30]

Casey was not charged in any way..Roselle sold him and Eric Manuel down the river....

Based on the below article Dwaine Casey initially got 5 years probation:

Casey was caught up in one of college basketball's most unsavory scandals. His name had graced the airbill of an Emery overnight envelope that, on its way to the father of Kentucky recruit Chris Mills in Los Angeles, came open to reveal $1,000 in cash. The ensuing NCAA probe ensnared Casey, who the NCAA concluded had sent the money and who resigned and was placed on NCAA probation for five years;

http://www.si.com/vault/1991/02/11/...nly-eric-manuel-is-still-paying-a-heavy-price

 

[brianpoe]

John Cheney is in for one reason and everybody knows it.

 

[2Adulterers]

Based on the below article Dwaine Casey initially got 5 years probation:

Casey was caught up in one of college basketball's most unsavory scandals. His name had graced the airbill of an Emery overnight envelope that, on its way to the father of Kentucky recruit Chris Mills in Los Angeles, came open to reveal $1,000 in cash. The ensuing NCAA probe ensnared Casey, who the NCAA concluded had sent the money and who resigned and was placed on NCAA probation for five years;

http://www.si.com/vault/1991/02/11/...nly-eric-manuel-is-still-paying-a-heavy-price

Casey did not sign the airbill..It was signed by Laurnetta McDowell Secretary in Basketball Office.The NCAA recinded Casey's probation after the Emery Civil case was settled.

 

[Katwatcher]

Aren't you familiar with the Herald Leader winning their Pulitzer? About the NCAA being camped out in Lexington?

I remember Herald-Leader winning Pulitzer but it was during the Sutton years, not before. I could be wrong though.

 

[martinsm30]

Casey did not sign the airbill..It was signed by Laurnetta McDowell Secretary in Basketball Office.The NCAA recinded Casey's probation after the Emery Civil case was settled.

Thus the initially in my post and he was charged wrongly. I met Dwaine once outside of basketball. He was a nice guy.

 

[2Adulterers]

Thus the initially in my post and he was charged wrongly. I met Dwaine once outside of basketball. He was a nice guy.

Dwaine is a class act..I believe with all I hold dear that he never sent money to Chris Mills

 

[crestcat]

I remember Herald-Leader winning Pulitzer but it was during the Sutton years, not before. I could be wrong though.

Google it and read all about it, Joe B Hall era

 

[preacherfan]

On the contrary Casey faced no NCAA charges..Don't let the facts get in your way..I was around Sutton for 4 years..He was a gentleman to me and my family.Opinions are like.....everybody has one.

I am actually glad to hear that you had a good relationship with Sutton. Face it, we all base our opinions on our experiences and mine just happened to be negative. Maybe if I had a lot of interactions, I would have liked him. Or, maybe not.

But, we do know for a fact that he had an alcohol problem and we know that personality issues often are associated with alcohol. It shouldn't surprise anyone that an alcoholic might, at times, not be pleasant to be around.

 

[2Adulterers]

I am actually glad to hear that you had a good relationship with Sutton. Face it, we all base our opinions on our experiences and mine just happened to be negative. Maybe if I had a lot of interactions, I would have liked him. Or, maybe not.

But, we do know for a fact that he had an alcohol problem and we know that personality issues often are associated with alcohol. It shouldn't surprise anyone that an alcoholic might, at times, not be pleasant to be around.

My Mother was an alcoholic so I knew how to deal with one.Eddie chose alcohol as a shelter when the pressure of the job seemed overwhelming.I was with the team a lot ..James Dickey and I grew very close..Eddie leaned on James for support.But the drinking clouded his vision..I felt for Coach Sutton it ruined his Son Sean's career/

 

[preacherfan]

Casey did not sign the airbill..It was signed by Laurnetta McDowell Secretary in Basketball Office.The NCAA recinded Casey's probation after the Emery Civil case was settled.

JPScott said this on his site: Casey's sentence of five years banishment by the NCAA was later reduced to four years.

I know I am being techical but there is a difference between rescinding and reducing. Which is correct?

 

[ukalum]

Per the BBWAA Election Committee Rules...
E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

That is not Baseball's rule. That is the HOF's rule. The HOF is run by the BBWAA, and they can do whatever they want without Baseball's permission.

 

[W2R]

Damn he looks bad

 

[TexKat]

^^^ Hardly recognizable

 

[TexKat]

My Mother was an alcoholic so I knew how to deal with one.Eddie chose alcohol as a shelter when the pressure of the job seemed overwhelming.I was with the team a lot ..James Dickey and I grew very close..Eddie leaned on James for support.But the drinking clouded his vision..I felt for Coach Sutton it ruined his Son Sean's career/

Interesting.

 

[RogerIndy]

Absolutely NOT until Joe B gets in Springfield!! Nobody has followed a legend and had the success he had following Adolph - nobody. Coach Hall first, then we talk.

I couldn't agree more. Joe B. has 1 championship, 3 final fours, 6 elite eights, and he left the program in good shape, that was quickly trashed by Sutton.

 

[Kybluedude]

Casey was never vindicated. Winning a lawsuit again Emery and being vindicated are very different things.

BTW, my experience with Sutton wasn't pleasant either. The guy was a complete jerk, IMO. I am not the only person with that opinion/experience either.

Not true at all. Very nice man and the best x&o coach ever at UK in the last 5 minutes of a tight game. So close to a dynasty type run.