Doesn't anyone work anymore?

[80 Proof]

And an exploited work force who finally said “enough” and demanded to be paid what they’re worth vs the company paying the minimum it can get away with. There’s a reason employees are no longer loyal and change jobs every 2-3 years. Companies don’t take care of their people like they did in my parents’ era. Want a raise? Go to a new company.

I worked for Kroger all through high school and college. What they were paying me nearly 20 years ago had more buying power than the wages they’re paying today. The wage I was making when I left in 2003 is worth $13.75 an hour in today’s money. They barely pay department heads that much now.

I don’t see immigration as a major issue in terms of low wage service jobs sitting vacant. Migrant workers don’t generally flock to fast food restaurants and big box chains. They usually do jobs us natural born citizens turn our noses at. You won’t find a ton of suburban teens/young adults willing to muck stalls full time for $8 an hour or roof houses for $10/hour cash under the table.

Just wait until inflation gets rolling really good, then that buying power will be even smaller.

We are still paying covid bonus on unemployment. That works out to an extra $15k per year on top of the normal unemployment payments. This bumps the payment to stay home above the average salary in Kentucky of approximately $42k per year.

It's lunacy.

 

[gamecockcat]

And an exploited work force who finally said “enough” and demanded to be paid what they’re worth vs the company paying the minimum it can get away with. There’s a reason employees are no longer loyal and change jobs every 2-3 years. Companies don’t take care of their people like they did in my parents’ era. Want a raise? Go to a new company.

I worked for Kroger all through high school and college. What they were paying me nearly 20 years ago had more buying power than the wages they’re paying today. The wage I was making when I left in 2003 is worth $13.75 an hour in today’s money. They barely pay department heads that much now.

I don’t see immigration as a major issue in terms of low wage service jobs sitting vacant. Migrant workers don’t generally flock to fast food restaurants and big box chains. They usually do jobs us natural born citizens turn our noses at. You won’t find a ton of suburban teens/young adults willing to muck stalls full time for $8 an hour or roof houses for $10/hour cash under the table.

I tend to agree with your sentiment but, in this day and age, are mucking stalls or day labor 'worth' $20/hr? Skills drive the marketplace and in-demand skills demand much higher wages. What truly valuable skills do most teenagers possess working at a fast food restaurant? Showing up and doing a shift's worth of work without using but a smattering of high value skills (tech proficiency, decision making, mathematical calculations, welding/trade expertise, etc.) really isn't a job that workers can demand to be paid what they're worth. Or a 'living wage'. Jobs that require almost no high value skills are not meant to be a full-time, feeding a family of 4 on one income, type of job, imo. I mean, my daughter worked for a while at a McDonalds while in HS and it was darn near idiot-proof. Almost every single process in the restaurant is premeasured and timed so that if you are physically able to open a package or push a button, you're qualified. Should someone expect to earn a 'living wage' and feed their family on such a job? From a humanitarian standpoint perhaps but certainly not from an economic one. If we pay those types of jobs a 'living wage', well, guess what? All other jobs that do require much higher levels of skill will have to pay more and the bar for what constitutes a 'living wage' will increase, also, so that, once again, the low wage jobs won't pay enough.

I worked in grocery stores during HS and college ('79-'85) and, back then, they were paying department heads >$40k/yr. Not sure they're paying less than that now, are they?

 

[DSmith21]

Just wait until inflation gets rolling really good, then that buying power will be even smaller.

We are still paying covid bonus on unemployment. That works out to an extra $15k per year on top of the normal unemployment payments. This bumps the payment to stay home above the average salary in Kentucky of approximately $42k per year.

It's lunacy.

There is a bunch more "free" government money and programs in the coming infrastructure bills that will further discourage work. Free pre kindergarten, free community college, expanded Medicare, permanent increase in child tax credit to $3,600, expansion of food stamp program, hundreds of billions for senior home care, etc. Good luck finding people for entry level jobs.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I worked for Kroger all through high school and college. What they were paying me nearly 20 years ago had more buying power than the wages they’re paying today. The wage I was making when I left in 2003 is worth $13.75 an hour in today’s money. They barely pay department heads that much now

You just perfectly described inflation, even though you dont realize it.

Inflation is a spending problem, driving down the value of our currency. That's not a store's problem because they suffer too. All their costs increase at the same rate, especially anything that requires transportation like groceries.

Some people trying to make alot of pro government, pro lazy person points are accidentally making alot of anti government and anti lazy person points.

 

[Lord Z]

If a man is young and healthy it doesn't make any sense for him to have a job. Live off the land with the occasional detour into opportunistic criminal enterprise. That's the way to go. Later on when your health begins to fail and you become needy is when you dump it all off on somebody else and get an actual job.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Went to Leadville, CO yesterday (quaint little mountain town, touristy, 10,000' elevation, great hiking and views). When we were done hiking, walked through the downtown with a bunch of cute shops, restaurants, etc. Literally every single restaurant on the main street (I'd estimate 10+) had a 'Help Wanted' sign out. Even at 2:00 pm there was a line outside every restaurant with multiple empty tables inside as none of them had enough workers to even seat all of their tables. We waited over 45 minutes to get a table outside and then another 15 before getting a menu. There was one waitress for probably 12 tables outside. Several tables who were seated before us hadn't even ordered. We left and found another place to eat outside Leadville.

While I understand the need for a short-term infusion of cash when COVID closed down the economy, it seems to me that we're well past that point and we need to get people back to work. Restaurants, bars, small businesses need to get back on their feet and it will be even more difficult if they can't find people to work. Certainly the restaurant we eventually left lost some revenue only because they couldn't staff properly. And we weren't the only people to leave, either.

The people who work in Leadville likely left when there were no jobs. As it is touristy many of the workers there come from other places.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

As I sit through endless interviews to hire another Senior Engineer (funny, given the nature of this discussion).. I'm curious. Why would a place in Colorado have it's "popular" season in the Summer. Wouldn't it be the winter?

Some of these seasonal jobs pay bank.. and you can make a lot of your nut during that time. Bartenders at Flynns on Fire Island, NY we're telling us how some weekend nights they'd make over $2k. And I'm sure a lot of those tips go un reported.

 

[PTI (pti)]

Leadville is the highest city in America (10,200 feet). It snows from September/October to late June. Since there’s not a ski resort in town, the only outdoor recreation for most people in the winter is snowmobiling or snowshoeing. Even in August it’s ~ freezing in the morning. Highs are in the 60s.

Basically it’s miserable and tough to get around with nothing to do in the winter.

 

[Deeeefense]

By 2030 half the unskilled/semi-skilled jobs will be replaced by robotics, autonomous vehicles, and IE etc. so maybe this trend will fit in well.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Leadville is the highest city in America (10,200 feet). It snows from September/October to late June. Since there’s not a ski resort in town, the only outdoor recreation for most people in the winter is snowmobiling or snowshoeing. Even in August it’s ~ freezing in the morning. Highs are in the 60s.

Basically it’s miserable and tough to get around with nothing to do in the winter.

So then, why is it even a popular spot in the summer? Seems like the sort of town that shouldn't be popular at all.

I do know that a lot of those Colorado/Utah ski towns are boom for a few months and then bust for the rest. It's like Saratoga. Absolutely BOOMING during track/summer season, but dies off come winter.

 

[jameslee32]

Went to Leadville, CO yesterday (quaint little mountain town, touristy, 10,000' elevation, great hiking and views). When we were done hiking, walked through the downtown with a bunch of cute shops, restaurants, etc. Literally every single restaurant on the main street (I'd estimate 10+) had a 'Help Wanted' sign out. Even at 2:00 pm there was a line outside every restaurant with multiple empty tables inside as none of them had enough workers to even seat all of their tables. We waited over 45 minutes to get a table outside and then another 15 before getting a menu. There was one waitress for probably 12 tables outside. Several tables who were seated before us hadn't even ordered. We left and found another place to eat outside Leadville.

While I understand the need for a short-term infusion of cash when COVID closed down the economy, it seems to me that we're well past that point and we need to get people back to work. Restaurants, bars, small businesses need to get back on their feet and it will be even more difficult if they can't find people to work. Certainly the restaurant we eventually left lost some revenue only because they couldn't staff properly. And we weren't the only people to leave, either.

Hard to believe people aren't dying to serve you.

 

[PTI (pti)]

So then, why is it even a popular spot in the summer? Seems like the sort of town that shouldn't be popular at all.

I do know that a lot of those Colorado/Utah ski towns are boom for a few months and then bust for the rest. It's like Saratoga. Absolutely BOOMING during track/summer season, but dies off come winter.

Because it’s become a huge location for endurance events, mostly owned by Lifetime Fitness.

Marathon/half
50 miler
100 mile mountain bike
100 mile run
Trans Rockies run
It’s a stop on the Colorado Trail
Etc

The population approximately doubles those weekends (and a few others) in the summer. So finding $2.13/hour labor is always an issue, which has been my whole point. You have a very small remote rural town with very limited housing that needs to hire hundreds of workers for about 2 months. That’s very very hard to do.

It isn’t just all because people are lazy and suck.

 

[gamecockcat]

Hard to believe people aren't dying to serve you.

???

Not sure why you needed to be snarky on my post. I was just relating what happened and I actually expressed some understanding re: stimulus, unemployment insurance, low wages, etc. I guess you'd sat around for another hour+ to get a sandwich that was gonna run $15 or more apiece? After waiting around an hour already. You must be a much better person than I am (and, I'm guessing, 95% of the American population). Or you just have nothing better to do than wait 2 hours to eat lunch.

 

[weused2luvhim2]

Weird that unemployment in Tennessee pays about half of what it does in Kentucky but they still can’t find workers.

 

[rick64]

There are NOW HIRING signs all over Louisville restaurants and fast food places.

 

[FirewithFire]

Welcome to what happens when your corrupt ass government transforms a manufacturing economy into a service economy while allowing illegals to pour in so that wages stay low.

This is also what happens when your corrupt ass government is for sale to the highest bidder, be they foreign or domestic. This is also what happens when you corrupt ass government prints tons of money to cover their corrupt asses and the value of the dollar goes to almost zero.

This is also what happens when you corrupt ass government does a whole host of other thing they shouldn't be able to do, but the puppets who are supposed to keep them in check are too morally bankrupt and undereducated to care or even know any better.

Meanwhile, the truly rich get richer from a burgeoning stock market that feeds off of companies positive profit reports. The execs pay the government to make laws that benefit them and then they both reap their rewards through the stock market.

Do you see a common thread here?

Eventually people figure out that it is easier to just not work than to slave away their lives for nothing. This sort of thing also trains them to accept a life where the government is there to take care of them for life. Uncle Sugar will make it all better.

Next stop, Universal Basic Income. Great Reset anyone. You own to much crap anyway. You will be happy.

 

[roguemocha]

Down here the service industry is crushing, but we’re completely understaffed and no one to hire. Bartending going automated will be a long way away, servers, not so much. You can order off an iPad at your table and have a food runner bring it.

I don’t know if anyone that wants to go to a bar and have a machine make some shitty weak pour drink and not talk to the keep. Maybe those people are out there but what fun is that? Wouldn’t you rather save $50 and buy a bottle or some beers and go to your hotel room or house if that’s the case?

 

[maneal4]

My grandfather worked for White Castle all his life and was able to support a house, three kids, and a vacation home in Florida. When he died my grandmother received a pension check once a year for around 100k every year. Most of that money was spent in nursing home and end of life care for her.

He put his son, my uncle, who is trying to retire, into the same business and he has basically no company provided retirement money. That sort of pay and retirement just does not exist anymore, for a number of reasons. Looking forward to working until forever 🤢

 

[AustinTXCat]

We own land near Hartsel, roughly 60 miles from Leadville. Honestly, there's not much up that way.

 

[awf]

According to Forbes magazine, 46% of stimulus money was invested in the stock market: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfr...s-checks-in-the-stock-market/?sh=1b1c150172f0

Did we really need to keep borrowing money to 'keep people afloat' if almost half was invested in the stock market and not used to keep the lights on and food on the table?

Also, the population that are waitresses, bartenders, cooks are most likely not qualified to find 'better paying jobs with benefits' or they'd already done so, wouldn't they? Maybe a portion of them work in the industry as a second job to supplement their main job but then they are already working a job that isn't necessarily 'better paying with benefits'. I just don't think the average person working as waitstaff or bartender has as many employment choices as some on here are assuming (for a variety of reasons). Even at a place like a Chili's, the waitstaff have 2-4 tables they're handling and generally turn them over every hour. If they only get $5 tip per table, that's $20/hr and I would guess they average more than that (maybe not - I'm just guessing). $20+/hr to wait on tables doesn't seem like it's a pittance but maybe the hassle of being in that position suggests they should get more. In most places, the waitstaff splits a portion of the tips with the bus staff so they may not quite net $20/hr (of course, they may not declare it on their income tax, either, so they may net more than another person who is paid $20/hr in wages). Luckily, I never worked restaurants growing up: cutting yards and grocery stores was where my p/t income came from.

I agree that restaurants have paid very low wages for a long, long time and that perhaps needs to change. But, if it does change, I don't see how restaurants can stay in business if they still allow waitstaff to keep all of their tips (which, many times, aren't reported at all or at a very reduced amount). Restaurant and bar margins are very thin. Add $2 to every item and, if that causes a small drop in patronage, they may very well close their doors. Do restaurants start going the way of fast food and install kiosks at every table so fewer workers are needed? How does that help the people who would normally be working in that industry?

Most of your premise is spot on.......except for the part of not paying taxes on their tips.....the percentage of tax paid by the server is based on their sales receipts......when they first instituted this tax scheme it was 15% of your sales.....no matter what your tips are.........my wife worked at Excectutive Inn for a while.......it evened out over time but there were days where she didn't get 15% tips.......

 

[PTI (pti)]

Pretty sure you’re completely wrong about that, and while it may have been an Executive Inn policy the IRS certainly does not know what a servers sales receipts are.

 

[WildcatFan1982]

when i worked as a valet driver we'd only declare the tips we made that brought us up to $7.25 an hour. Paid $4 an hour. Claim $3.25. Pocketed the rest

 

[bkingUK]

Various studies show that millions of Americans desire changing careers post Covid. How it plays out longterm is TBD, but removing political platitudes, revocation of benefits has not led to a spike in application submission.

Benefits were take too far, but there are other elements to the problem.

Another example, take NYC building service jobs. Most NYC office jobs are still remote. This means less building services jobs. It also means less commuters. Also means less restaurant revenue. Compound that with less tourists. Also add the element of perception of covid risk, risk of commute. And then you add that covid, for one reason or another, is leading Americans to rethink their occupations... and you give a cushion that allows them to rethink it.

That’s where we are. What will be interesting to see, is if the shift in occupation means a boom skilled training, whether college or some other institution.

But employers have to adapt or be killed.

 

[chroix]

I will never understand the additional money for unemployment. My assumption is this was just both parties trying to buy the votes of poor people.

Also any business that relies on putting people on unemployment on the regular should be forced to pay the difference. Makes absolutely no sense to subsidize these companies.

 

[WayneDougan]

Horrendous trade deals and unchecked immigration.

The reason I voted for Trump. At least he mentioned that these were an issue. From Bush to Obama to everybody else - we must open the floodgates on trade and immigration. I knew this was bad policy 25 years ago. Even argued with my Econ professor about it who is now on the Fed Board.

 

[WayneDougan]

I will never understand the additional money for unemployment. My assumption is this was just both parties trying to buy the votes of poor people.

Amen... there was nothing to spend money on during the lockdowns other than food, rent and consumer products. If anything, they should have cut unemployment slightly from a percentage basis and say they were going to conserve it for a longer period of time.

 

[gamecockcat]

I will never understand the additional money for unemployment. My assumption is this was just both parties trying to buy the votes of poor people.

Also any business that relies on putting people on unemployment on the regular should be forced to pay the difference. Makes absolutely no sense to subsidize these companies.

The theory was to give people extra money so they'd spend it and, to a certain extent, keep the economy from completely melting down. With almost half of stimulus money going into the stock market, that assumption was proven wrong. So, what does a well-run government do when one assumption is proven wrong? Why, throw more good money after bad, of course!

Get people back to work and the economy will do just fine. Basically, all either presidential candidate needed to do is get out of the way and the economy would've bounced back just fine. But the 'tweaks' this administration has done (immigration, cancelling oil production, continued drunken spree spending, etc.) has retarded the recovery if anything. Just get the hell out of the way and let the economy and the American people recover in a natural way.

 

[Creed Bratton]

My daughter works at a rec center as a summer job. The director had a difficult time finding life guards this year and the ones he hired want to just sit in the air conditioned concession stand. When he told them they needed to be at poolside paying attention in case a kid drowned, you know what they were being paid to do, they bashed him after he left saying how mean he was for telling them they had to sit in the sun all day. Hello what did you think being a lifeguard consisted of?

 

[Lord Z]

I will never understand the additional money for unemployment. My assumption is this was just both parties trying to buy the votes of poor people.

Also any business that relies on putting people on unemployment on the regular should be forced to pay the difference. Makes absolutely no sense to subsidize these companies.

Republicans set the table for the rich to feed at the trough with Trump's obscene tax breaks then the Democrats come in and you get all these stupid giveaways like the unemployment increase and the one I hate the most, the college debt forgiveness. Meanwhile the middleclass gets screwed both ways.

 

[H. Lecter]

Republicans set the table for the rich to feed at the trough with Trump's obscene tax breaks then the Democrats come in and you get all these stupid giveaways like the unemployment increase and the one I hate the most, the college debt forgiveness. Meanwhile the middleclass gets screwed both ways.

Amen Lord Z! Been saying for years both sides pit people against each other anyway they can and the middle class gets stuck in, well, the middle. We make to much to get the debt cancelation and free shit but not enough to get the super tax deals and write offs (fixed it for the smarties). Meanwhile we just have to keep on dealing with the dummies on both sides. SMH

 

[PTI (pti)]

Amen. Definitely looking to score some right offs as well.

 

[roguemocha]

“Right offs”

 

[JDHoss]

But employers have to adapt or be killed.

In a nutshell, yes. Back in Kingsport a few weeks ago, the owner of a (excellent) local burger joint called Backwoods Burger posted a job opening for a busboy for $8 an hour for 24 hours a week, and bitching that he couldn't find anyone to work. Someone replied he'd have a tough time filling that for $8 an hour. He said that a 10 year old could do that job, but I'm not sure what that had to do with anything. Fast forward a couple of weeks, and the Mid City Grill (excellent burgers) in Johnson City announced they were going to open a new location just around the block from this guy. The Mid City Grill in Johnson City is excellent, and with the announcement, said they were going to pay $13 - $14 per hour. I'm guessing the guy at Backwoods is going to have to adapt/change his business model, or start looking for another line of work.

 

[BlueBallz]

when i worked as a valet driver we'd only declare the tips we made that brought us up to $7.25 an hour. Paid $4 an hour. Claim $3.25. Pocketed the rest

When I worked as a server, any cash tips I pocketed and only declared 8% of my sales, unless my credit card tips pushed it over 8%. At one point I waited bar tables and paid entirely under the table, I made great money.

 

[gobigblue812]

I hate to be this guy, but if unemployment pays more than a job, it says more about the job than the government.

Furthermore, no one should have to work 60-80 hours a week to get by. Life is short, and in this country we’re conditioned to believe from birth we have to spend most of it working or we’re lazy.

60 years ago, my grandfather drove a gasoline truck for a modest salary with a high school education. My grandmother never worked a day outside the home. They owned a house and two cars while raising two kids on one salary. My grandfather died with six figures in savings. Until my most recent change in employment at age 40, I’ve lived check-to-check with nearly zero savings working jobs that require a bachelor’s degree.

Productivity has increased. Wages are stagnant.

Times have changes. Decades ago people didn't pay for cable, internet, cell phones for every family member, cell phone plans, most teenagers didn't have their own car. Am I missing anything?

When you add up what those items cost you can see that your parents or grandparents were able to get by with earning less.

People pay a lot more today for "necessities " than they did years ago.

 

[lakercat]

First off, if you’ve never lived like these folks then you speak from a position of ignorance. When you live paycheck to paycheck you live in the moment. You don’t make long range plans. All you are worried about is what you need to pay this month just to keep what you have. And you will do whatever it takes to just do that. They’re not so much lazy as they are worried about paying their bills. Money coming in from any angle is their main goal. If they’re drawing UI, they may have a side gig that pays them cash money. It happens every day. Most can’t pay their bills on what these restaurants pay which a lot of times is $2.25/hour plus tips. So how many of you folks wanna go work that job?

Nah, I lived paycheck to paycheck, and I worked hard to get to where I am now; there are no excuses. Tbf, I would stay home too if I was a lazy bum who blamed everything on everyone else. That said, for most, if they can get paid 50K to stay at home, and not have to pay for childcare, it's a no brainer. That said, some of those cats make more than I do, and I make low six figures (not much at all, but I don't live paycheck to paycheck because I'm not an idiot with money) and that's definitely BS. My friend is doing sandwich delivery and is making more money now than he ever has.

The service industry (landscaping, remodeling, HVAC, etc) is booming. I know several people that own businesses that have more work than they can handle. This unemployment BS should have been over last fall, but of course, this whole COVID thing should have been over with a year ago, but that's for another conversation.

 

[UKWildcatT]

If the government is buying your vote by letting you stay home..::

 

[ukalumni00]

Nobody in government wants to be the one who tells the American people that we cannot afford these entitlements anymore and they have to be taken away. It would be political suicide and none of these shameless hacks in government have the courage to do it and a large % of the population does not have the will to better their lives. It's taken decades from both sides of the aisle to get to this point and it seems government is now in overdrive to completely tank this country in order to have full control of "The People". Many Americans simply see no reason to try anymore when the government will just send them a check every month.

 

[UKWildcatT]

Nobody in government wants to be the one who tells the American people that we cannot afford these entitlements anymore and they have to be taken away. It would be political suicide and none of these shameless hacks in government have the courage to do it and a large % of the population does not have the will to better their lives. It's taken decades from both sides of the aisle to get to this point and it seems government is now in overdrive to completely tank this country in order to have full control of "The People". Many Americans simply see no reason to try anymore when the government will just send them a check every month.

You nailed it

 

[Tskware]

Nobody in government wants to be the one who tells the American people that we cannot afford these entitlements anymore and they have to be taken away. It would be political suicide and none of these shameless hacks in government have the courage to do it and a large % of the population does not have the will to better their lives. It's taken decades from both sides of the aisle to get to this point and it seems government is now in overdrive to completely tank this country in order to have full control of "The People". Many Americans simply see no reason to try anymore when the government will just send them a check every month.

Isn't that what they said about medicare in the 1960s . . . and SS in the 1930s? Seems like a lot of Americans have tried pretty hard and successfully since then to become wealthy.

But, no question, we do need to trim entitlements, math just doesn't work going forward.