Doesn't anyone work anymore?

[gamecockcat]

Went to Leadville, CO yesterday (quaint little mountain town, touristy, 10,000' elevation, great hiking and views). When we were done hiking, walked through the downtown with a bunch of cute shops, restaurants, etc. Literally every single restaurant on the main street (I'd estimate 10+) had a 'Help Wanted' sign out. Even at 2:00 pm there was a line outside every restaurant with multiple empty tables inside as none of them had enough workers to even seat all of their tables. We waited over 45 minutes to get a table outside and then another 15 before getting a menu. There was one waitress for probably 12 tables outside. Several tables who were seated before us hadn't even ordered. We left and found another place to eat outside Leadville.

While I understand the need for a short-term infusion of cash when COVID closed down the economy, it seems to me that we're well past that point and we need to get people back to work. Restaurants, bars, small businesses need to get back on their feet and it will be even more difficult if they can't find people to work. Certainly the restaurant we eventually left lost some revenue only because they couldn't staff properly. And we weren't the only people to leave, either.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Hard to blame servers/bartenders who would rather max out their unemployment benefits than get yelled at by awful customers over not getting extra ranch.

Hopefully when these programs run out, they will go back to their jobs. But the restaurants that didn't make it through covid, many of those workers got better jobs, doing data-entry or warehouse work. They have no intentions of ever stepping back into the restaurant business.

 

[PTI (pti)]

Leadville is absolutely bonkers during July and August, then a complete ghost town the rest of the year. They also lost an entire high season when they were still locked down last summer and all the big events were canceled. I was actually drinking (very heavily) in Pb Brewery the night they closed. Very sad.

So yeah. It’s tough to find people to work for $2.13/hour plus tips when their job will likely only last 2 months.


You may have a great point about COVID and stimulus money, but this is a bad example.

 

[80 Proof]

Unemployment pays more than the average salary in Kentucky right now. Pretty easy to see why we have high unemployment along with record job openings.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Biggest thing you can do, treat your regular bars well. Be patient, be appreciative, tip higher. Because restaurant staff really are finding out the grass is greener.

 

[Rebelfreedomeagle]

There are plenty of available jobs so why would anyone take the ones with low pay and no benefits?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Unemployment pays more than the average salary in Kentucky right now. Pretty easy to see why we have high unemployment along with record job openings.

Just wait till they adjust the definition of "unemployed", which maybe already happened. Then it will magically look like everyone is back to work, even though every place is hiring/begging for workers.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

There are plenty of available jobs so why would anyone take the ones with low pay and no benefits?

Great call. I think now I will take that major corporate ceo job I saw vacant. Congrats on my promotion! Beers on me!

Because it's just that easy amirite

 

[PTI (pti)]

People are going to continue blaming unemployment benefits, but Leadville is a town of 2,500 people that has 8 different weekends in the summer that routinely bring an additional 2-5,000 people to town. The rest of the year it’s buried in snow and almost empty.

Complain about the stimulus money all you want, but business owners are going to have to deal with the reality that some jobs are just incredibly challenging to fill. It’s hard enough to find service industry workers, but in the OPs situation they’ve got to find people in a very small population who will happily work for only 2 months at a time before predictably losing their job.

Do attorneys or accountants or doctors or engineers enjoy that type of stress? Of course not.

 

[Ron Mehico]

Hard to blame servers/bartenders who would rather max out their unemployment benefits than get yelled at by awful customers over not getting extra ranch.

I

I actually think it’s rather appalling how many lazy losers there are that would rather sit at home all day than actually work for a living. Ultimately the lazy lose, hopefully we start to see that soon.

 

[vhcat70]

Went to Leadville, CO yesterday (quaint little mountain town, touristy, 10,000' elevation, great hiking and views). When we were done hiking, walked through the downtown with a bunch of cute shops, restaurants, etc. Literally every single restaurant on the main street (I'd estimate 10+) had a 'Help Wanted' sign out. Even at 2:00 pm there was a line outside every restaurant with multiple empty tables inside as none of them had enough workers to even seat all of their tables. We waited over 45 minutes to get a table outside and then another 15 before getting a menu. There was one waitress for probably 12 tables outside. Several tables who were seated before us hadn't even ordered. We left and found another place to eat outside Leadville.

While I understand the need for a short-term infusion of cash when COVID closed down the economy, it seems to me that we're well past that point and we need to get people back to work. Restaurants, bars, small businesses need to get back on their feet and it will be even more difficult if they can't find people to work. Certainly the restaurant we eventually left lost some revenue only because they couldn't staff properly. And we weren't the only people to leave, either.

Your fault for not being in Frisco or Breck instead. Maybe Glenwood Springs.

 

[Tskware]

Complain about the stimulus money all you want, but business owners are going to have to deal with the reality that some jobs are just incredibly challenging to fill. It’s hard enough to find service industry workers, but in the OPs situation they’ve got to find people in a very small population who will happily work for only 2 months at a time before predictably losing their job.

Do attorneys or accountants or doctors or engineers enjoy that type of stress? Of course not.

We don't have any problem with unemployed staying home instead of taking our jobs at our office (professional services) but we have having a hell of a time hiring anyway, some want full time remote work, several have had better offers which we have had to meet or lose good employees. In short, they have found lots of other choices.

As stated, there has been an international reset, lots of people will never go back to the same job, at the same pay. Maybe it will cause inflation, but you can't force people back into low paying jobs just so your beer and hamburger is cheap.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

People are going to continue blaming unemployment benefits, but Leadville is a town of 2,500 people that has 8 different weekends in the summer that routinely bring an additional 2-5,000 people to town. The rest of the year it’s buried in snow and almost empty.

Complain about the stimulus money all you want, but business owners are going to have to deal with the reality that some jobs are just incredibly challenging to fill. It’s hard enough to find service industry workers, but in the OPs situation they’ve got to find people in a very small population who will happily work for only 2 months at a time before predictably losing their job.

Do attorneys or accountants or doctors or engineers enjoy that type of stress? Of course not.

If only attorneys, Drs, etc had jobs as stressful as bar tenders.

I have to earn evey client, every time because I have thousands of other attorneys trying to claw them away from me. I'm sure same goes for accountants and probably engineers. And that's 24/7/365.

If you talk to bartenders in these very seasonal areas, they'll tell you they don't live there. Thats an industry where people show up for seasonal works make hay, then go to the next seasonal location. It's something they enjoy, not some burden.

Also they're almost always contracted not employed. Covid unemployment included contract and gig work too. So now they all do the same traveling, just without the inconvenience of working

 

[80 Proof]

We don't have any problem with unemployed staying home instead of taking our jobs at our office (professional services) but we have having a hell of a time hiring anyway, some want full time remote work, several have had better offers which we have had to meet or lose good employees. In short, they have found lots of other choices.

As stated, there has been an international reset, lots of people will never go back to the same job, at the same pay. Maybe it will cause inflation, but you can't force people back into low paying jobs just so your beer and hamburger is cheap.

We can quit paying them to not work though.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I actually think it’s rather appalling how many lazy losers there are that would rather sit at home all day than actually work for a living. Ultimately the lazy lose, hopefully we start to see that soon.

There will always be lazy people in society. But maybe the restaurant industry needs an overhaul. Those jobs aren't JUST that it's low pay. It's awful hours and a high amount of stress (more so for cooks). The restaurant's margins are pretty slim, IDK how much more they can pay. Maybe the US consumer needs to adopt a higher standard tip rate. Because some of these jobs just aren't worth it. And the out of work servers/cooks/bartenders are finding new careers. Maybe Rastaurants and bars will move more towards automation..

 

[vhcat70]

If only attorneys, Drs, etc had jobs as stressful as bar tenders.

I have to earn evey client, every time because I have thousands of other attorneys trying to claw them away from me. I'm sure same goes for accountants and probably engineers. And that's 24/7/365.

So how much would you pay me to create a trust for me?

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I always thought the bar business was heading towards a cliff, anyways. In the 80's, you could be a hole-in-the-wall, serve 5 food items, with 2 taps and your 6-7 most common bottles.. and you could make that work. Not anymore. People want nice establishments, drinks that take time to make, a menu that caters to every weird taste and new allergy. That costs money..

 

[PTI (pti)]

There aren’t enough bartenders and servers to meet the demand in a tiny town like Leadville during the summer. That’s what the OP (and many of you) are missing. If unemployment benefits ended immediately, it’s still a problem. It’s hard as hell to find people willing to work for only two months, and you’ll likely have to find people from out of town who then need to find a place to live for 2 months.

Unemployment has made this worse, but these problems are absolutely not going away.

 

[JDHoss]

Back in Tennessee on Stone Drive in Kingsport, Bojangles' had a billboard advertising for crew members at "Up To" $10 per hour. A quarter mile past that sign, a new car wash called Doug's opened. Doug's advertised their jobs at $14 per hour with a $450 signing bonus. Doug's filled their staff quickly, while Bojangles' is still struggling to fill positions.

 

[Tskware]

We can quit paying them to not work though.

Agree, and that is about to end, as it should

To tell you the truth, as it turned out, both rounds of the PPP loans were not necessary, or at least not for every business. I know plenty of companies who could have made it through the pandemic just fine and took out big loans anyway, since they were/are 100% forgivable.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

So how much would you pay me to create a trust for me?

Depends on assets/risk and desired objectives. If it's really specialized or high risk, I would probably recommend a firm that specializes in financial/estate planning.

 

[ukalumni00]

So those ok with paying people more are going to be ok paying $30 for a hamburger in small town KY? When that happens restaurants will not exist so better start learning to cook at home. We stopped eating out because of how ridiculous it has gotten. All for people finding the best jobs they can but there will be a price that all of as consumers will have to be willing to pay more for because those higher wages are 100% being passed on to the consumer.

 

[80 Proof]

Agree, and that is about to end, as it should

To tell you the truth, as it turned out, both rounds of the PPP loans were not necessary, or at least not for every business. I know plenty of companies who could have made it through the pandemic just fine and took out big loans anyway, since they were/are 100% forgivable.

PPP ended up being a massive clusterfunk. It certainly helped many businesses stay afloat, but the massive amounts of fraud nearly outweigh that result. Hundreds of millions of dollars left this country via theft, while many Americans still struggle.

And as you stated, many companies that didnt need it got completely forgivable loans.

 

[Tskware]

PPP ended up being a massive clusterfunk. It certainly helped many businesses stay afloat, but the massive amounts of fraud nearly outweigh that result. Hundreds of millions of dollars left this country via theft, while many Americans still struggle.

And as you stated, many companies that didnt need it got completely forgivable loans.

Including a lot of large professional firms who kept working remotely and did not miss a beat

 

[calismyhero]

First off, if you’ve never lived like these folks then you speak from a position of ignorance. When you live paycheck to paycheck you live in the moment. You don’t make long range plans. All you are worried about is what you need to pay this month just to keep what you have. And you will do whatever it takes to just do that. They’re not so much lazy as they are worried about paying their bills. Money coming in from any angle is their main goal. If they’re drawing UI, they may have a side gig that pays them cash money. It happens every day. Most can’t pay their bills on what these restaurants pay which a lot of times is $2.25/hour plus tips. So how many of you folks wanna go work that job?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Most can’t pay their bills on what these restaurants pay which a lot of times is $2.25/hour plus tips. So how many of you folks wanna go work that job?

It's like most other jobs, the great make really good money, the good ones do well, and the bad ones can't make ends meet.

People would be amazed how much a server/bartender makes in a nice place that gets good traffic.

 

[80 Proof]

First off, if you’ve never lived like these folks then you speak from a position of ignorance. When you live paycheck to paycheck you live in the moment. You don’t make long range plans. All you are worried about is what you need to pay this month just to keep what you have. And you will do whatever it takes to just do that. They’re not so much lazy as they are worried about paying their bills. Money coming in from any angle is their main goal. If they’re drawing UI, they may have a side gig that pays them cash money. It happens every day. Most can’t pay their bills on what these restaurants pay which a lot of times is $2.25/hour plus tips. So how many of you folks wanna go work that job?

Food service isn't the best job, but when I was doing it I rarely made less than $15 hr cash on top of the $2.25 per hour (20 years ago). It was convenient for a college student though.

Before I went to college I did construction work to save up and buy a decent vehicle. It paid more than the easy jobs at fast food or retail.

I grew up on the farm where it was hard work and low pay, but it was as rewarding as anything I've ever done.

I've been on every end of the working spectrum, from FNG on the construction crew to business owner.

I don't blame people at all for going the most profitable route, but I do blame those in leadership positions who are making unemployment the most profitable option available. This is unsustainable financially and an insult to those who never stopped working during the pandemic.

 

[Rebelfreedomeagle]

Great call. I think now I will take that major corporate ceo job I saw vacant. Congrats on my promotion! Beers on me!

Because it's just that easy amirite

Today, on my way to work I passed at least 5 fast food places with "now hiring" signs. Same thing at the gas station I stopped at. I also passed a factory with a sign that said now hiring, 18 per hour, paid medical, dental, vacation, and no experience necessary. Looks like an easy decision to me.

 

[gamecockcat]

According to Forbes magazine, 46% of stimulus money was invested in the stock market: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfr...s-checks-in-the-stock-market/?sh=1b1c150172f0

Did we really need to keep borrowing money to 'keep people afloat' if almost half was invested in the stock market and not used to keep the lights on and food on the table?

Also, the population that are waitresses, bartenders, cooks are most likely not qualified to find 'better paying jobs with benefits' or they'd already done so, wouldn't they? Maybe a portion of them work in the industry as a second job to supplement their main job but then they are already working a job that isn't necessarily 'better paying with benefits'. I just don't think the average person working as waitstaff or bartender has as many employment choices as some on here are assuming (for a variety of reasons). Even at a place like a Chili's, the waitstaff have 2-4 tables they're handling and generally turn them over every hour. If they only get $5 tip per table, that's $20/hr and I would guess they average more than that (maybe not - I'm just guessing). $20+/hr to wait on tables doesn't seem like it's a pittance but maybe the hassle of being in that position suggests they should get more. In most places, the waitstaff splits a portion of the tips with the bus staff so they may not quite net $20/hr (of course, they may not declare it on their income tax, either, so they may net more than another person who is paid $20/hr in wages). Luckily, I never worked restaurants growing up: cutting yards and grocery stores was where my p/t income came from.

I agree that restaurants have paid very low wages for a long, long time and that perhaps needs to change. But, if it does change, I don't see how restaurants can stay in business if they still allow waitstaff to keep all of their tips (which, many times, aren't reported at all or at a very reduced amount). Restaurant and bar margins are very thin. Add $2 to every item and, if that causes a small drop in patronage, they may very well close their doors. Do restaurants start going the way of fast food and install kiosks at every table so fewer workers are needed? How does that help the people who would normally be working in that industry?

 

[Tskware]

Today, on my way to work I passed at least 5 fast food places with "now hiring" signs. Same thing at the gas station I stopped at. I also passed a factory with a sign that said now hiring, 18 per hour, paid medical, dental, vacation, and no experience necessary. Looks like an easy decision to me.

Fast food is going to automate sooner rather than later anyway, I bet a lot of places could make just as much with two or three drive through windows, a computer screen taking orders and accepting payments, and a handful of employees inside cooking and preparing the orders. In short, probably will be a lot less fast food low wage entry level jobs internationally whether people are willing to work or not.

Same for bank teller, lots of bank services have gone fully automated, I am getting an increased equity line and have not met in person yet with any bank employee, all email and cell phone and uploading financial info to the cloud server.

 

[gamecockcat]

Today, on my way to work I passed at least 5 fast food places with "now hiring" signs. Same thing at the gas station I stopped at. I also passed a factory with a sign that said now hiring, 18 per hour, paid medical, dental, vacation, and no experience necessary. Looks like an easy decision to me.

Agreed but only if the potential candidates are the same population. FF restaurants tend to hire HS and college kids more so than factories. Plus, in Denver, McDonalds restaurants are advertising signing bonus and $15+/hour. Not necessarily a huge difference anymore.

Last year, RTD (train/bus service) in Denver was cutting back routes because they couldn't find drivers. Starting pay (IIRC) was $21/hr plus benefits plus OT. Still couldn't find many/enough takers for a long time.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

According to Forbes magazine, 46% of stimulus money was invested in the stock market: https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfr...s-checks-in-the-stock-market/?sh=1b1c150172f0

Did we really need to keep borrowing money to 'keep people afloat' if almost half was invested in the stock market and not used to keep the lights on and food on the table?

Also, the population that are waitresses, bartenders, cooks are most likely not qualified to find 'better paying jobs with benefits' or they'd already done so, wouldn't they? Maybe a portion of them work in the industry as a second job to supplement their main job but then they are already working a job that isn't necessarily 'better paying with benefits'. I just don't think the average person working as waitstaff or bartender has as many employment choices as some on here are assuming (for a variety of reasons). Even at a place like a Chili's, the waitstaff have 2-4 tables they're handling and generally turn them over every hour. If they only get $5 tip per table, that's $20/hr and I would guess they average more than that (maybe not - I'm just guessing). $20+/hr to wait on tables doesn't seem like it's a pittance but maybe the hassle of being in that position suggests they should get more. In most places, the waitstaff splits a portion of the tips with the bus staff so they may not quite net $20/hr (of course, they may not declare it on their income tax, either, so they may net more than another person who is paid $20/hr in wages). Luckily, I never worked restaurants growing up: cutting yards and grocery stores was where my p/t income came from.

I agree that restaurants have paid very low wages for a long, long time and that perhaps needs to change. But, if it does change, I don't see how restaurants can stay in business if they still allow waitstaff to keep all of their tips (which, many times, aren't reported at all or at a very reduced amount). Restaurant and bar margins are very thin. Add $2 to every item and, if that causes a small drop in patronage, they may very well close their doors. Do restaurants start going the way of fast food and install kiosks at every table so fewer workers are needed? How does that help the people who would normally be working in that industry?

Great questions. I really have no idea what can be done, because I will agree with the other side here: the cost of dining out is just too expensive. It's hard to justify $16 burgers and $13 cocktails. And then if you WANT to help those workers, the tips become bloated.. then before you know it, the night out for 2 just ran you $100+. And it could very easily climb up from there.

Maybe it's just a changing of of job markets. There are new jobs to be had, and technology has shifted the focus on where we need staffing. Maybe bars and restaurants need to slash their staff, utilize automation.. but that sort of defeats the purpose of "going out". You want to talk to your bartender or be waited on for food. I don't know if removing human workers from the restaurant industry (excluding fast food) is the best idea.. but I also don't see how this can go on much longer.

 

[MegaBlue05]

I hate to be this guy, but if unemployment pays more than a job, it says more about the job than the government.

Furthermore, no one should have to work 60-80 hours a week to get by. Life is short, and in this country we’re conditioned to believe from birth we have to spend most of it working or we’re lazy.

60 years ago, my grandfather drove a gasoline truck for a modest salary with a high school education. My grandmother never worked a day outside the home. They owned a house and two cars while raising two kids on one salary. My grandfather died with six figures in savings. Until my most recent change in employment at age 40, I’ve lived check-to-check with nearly zero savings working jobs that require a bachelor’s degree.

Productivity has increased. Wages are stagnant.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Today, on my way to work I passed at least 5 fast food places with "now hiring" signs. Same thing at the gas station I stopped at. I also passed a factory with a sign that said now hiring, 18 per hour, paid medical, dental, vacation, and no experience necessary. Looks like an easy decision to me.

Exactly. Loads of both jobs are available because people are getting free money instead of working.

Guess you agree with me after all

 

[phunterd]

I hate to be this guy, but if unemployment pays more than a job, it says more about the job than the government.

Furthermore, no one should have to work 60-80 hours a week to get by. Life is short, and in this country we’re conditioned to believe from birth we have to spend most of it working or we’re lazy.

60 years ago, my grandfather drove a gasoline truck for a modest salary with a high school education. My grandmother never worked a day outside the home. They owned a house and two cars while raising two kids on one salary. My grandfather died with six figures in savings. Until my most recent change in employment at age 40, I’ve lived check-to-check with nearly zero savings working jobs that require a bachelor’s degree.

Productivity has increased. Wages are stagnant.

Horrendous trade deals and unchecked immigration.

 

[bkingUK]

Benefits are one reason, but covid has shifted the way people work. It’s also forced people to reassess what they do for a living. This is hitting the service industry more than anything, especially jobs dealing with face to face interactions. This is due to covid but also work flexibility. Some of the responsibility is on the employers to shift how the find employees. It’s just like when a marketing pipeline dries up, you have to change the pipeline to find the prospects. But if your target audience isn’t responding, you need new tactics.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

hate to be this guy, but if unemployment pays more than a job, it says more about the job than the government

Unemployment should never pay as much as the job you left. People should never be given incentive to not be productive.

Right now they're making more than when they were working. For the individual, it makes sense to not go back. It's the fools at federal and state governments that caused the issue.

 

[bkingUK]

Work with a lot of hiring data and pretty in touch with service sector hiring. We’ve ran some analytics comparing states who’ve stopped benefits vs states who have not. In terms of submitted applications, we have not seen an anomalous spike in volume when comparing two groups of states. Generally, however, we see that particularly in urban / metro areas, that volume of applications declined more significantly when lockdowns were initiated. So, for instance, NYC service sector declined sharper than a smaller town in a red state. Both groups declined but more populated areas declined more drastically, This isn’t what we expected to find actually. Trend lines show neither group has recovered more than the other, but follow similar trajectories with major urban areas trending lower. Complex issue with no clear answer.

 

[MegaBlue05]

Horrendous trade deals and unchecked immigration.

And an exploited work force who finally said “enough” and demanded to be paid what they’re worth vs the company paying the minimum it can get away with. There’s a reason employees are no longer loyal and change jobs every 2-3 years. Companies don’t take care of their people like they did in my parents’ era. Want a raise? Go to a new company.

I worked for Kroger all through high school and college. What they were paying me nearly 20 years ago had more buying power than the wages they’re paying today. The wage I was making when I left in 2003 is worth $13.75 an hour in today’s money. They barely pay department heads that much now.

I don’t see immigration as a major issue in terms of low wage service jobs sitting vacant. Migrant workers don’t generally flock to fast food restaurants and big box chains. They usually do jobs us natural born citizens turn our noses at. You won’t find a ton of suburban teens/young adults willing to muck stalls full time for $8 an hour or roof houses for $10/hour cash under the table.

 

[phunterd]

And an exploited work force who finally said “enough” and demanded to be paid what they’re worth vs the company paying the minimum it can get away with. There’s a reason employees are no longer loyal and change jobs every 2-3 years. Companies don’t take care of their people like they did in my parents’ era. Want a raise? Go to a new company.

I worked for Kroger all through high school and college. What they were paying me nearly 20 years ago had more buying power than the wages they’re paying today. The wage I was making when I left in 2003 is worth $13.75 an hour in today’s money. They barely pay department heads that much now.

I don’t see immigration as a major issue in terms of low wage service jobs sitting vacant. Migrant workers don’t generally flock to fast food restaurants and big box chains. They usually do jobs us natural born citizens turn our noses at. You won’t find a ton of suburban teens/young adults willing to muck stalls full time for $8 an hour or roof houses for $10/hour cash under the table.

All three of your paragraphs can largely be tied back to trade deals and immigration.

Companies don’t have to be loyal to their workforce because production has been largely shipped overseas. Why give a raise when production costs are already 75% cheaper in Mexico or China?

Why do you think hard, unskilled labor wages have not experience real wage growth in the past 30 years? Because millions of unskilled immigrants have poured into the country through either chain migration or illegally. Do you think that the wages those jobs pay would necessarily increase if there weren’t illegal immigrants willing to work cheap? Of course they would. They’d have to or else no one would do them. That’s how the market works.

This thread is a microcosm of the impacts of trade deals and unchecked immigration on the working class. Service industry jobs weren’t meant to be primary sources of income for families but manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas and the unskilled labor supply has flooded blue collar and service industry jobs thus driving wages down.

Why do you think real working class wages rose at the fastest rate in decades during Trump’s presidency? Hint: immigration controls tightening unemployment rates drove wages up.