Correct me if im wrong, but does UK have 7 Helms titles?
- Thread starter TyCatPrice14
- Start date
There's quite a big difference between printing it in a media guide and showing it to a recruit 60 years ago (1955), yet publicly still acknowledging that it's not a real title for the last 20 years prior (1935) than claiming that it's a real title and hanging a banner for it still to this day (2015).
If you can't see the huge difference between the two, then I don't know what to tell you. Again, it's best you go elsewhere to try and justify KU's Helms titles because this isn't the place.
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I don't think there is any doubt that some schools, like Kansas and North Carolina, have more prominently bragged about their Helms titles than other schools. But Kentucky has not been above claiming them as national championships in the past. It wasn't ridiculous for the school to claim the titles back then, and it isn't now, either.
Bama fans don't post here , I bet if Kansas fans didn't run their mouth over here it wouldn't be an issue then .
It's ridiculous for a school to make a Helms and a NCAA championship banner look the same as if they are on par with each other . They are absolutely not the same thing or remotely close , UK is above that . Maybe if we had a case of the tiny titles we would hang illusion banners .
Again, you fail to realize that even though UK "claimed" it by printing it in a media guide and showing it to a recruit in 1955, they still aknowledged, back in 1935 and still to this date, that it was/is a mythical title, as in not a real championship.
UK was voted national champion by Sagarin decades after the fact. I'm not saying we should not claim it (I'm fine with that and have said UK has 1 natty title when talking to the annoying UT people here in TN), but it was not awarded anywhere close to the year the games were played.
Football polls were a joke back then for sure, not voting AFTER THE BOWLS was idiotic. Also factor in that any random poll could vote your team national champs and you see things like a couple of the joke national titles Bama claims.
I don't really mind if you hang them as long as you indicate it is a Helms Title. Acting like they are equal to NCAA titles is where I draw the line.
Okay, fair enough. So next time you compare KU and UK head to head, we can expect you to tally nine championships for UK, correct?
Woohoo! The strive for nine is over, BBN! We did it! Look out UCLA here we come!
I agree it should say Helms underneath but for some reason they don't listen to me or you even though people bitch about it weekly. See you in next week's thread.
I have my copy of Adoph Rupp's biography written by Russell Rice that was authorized br Rupp himself, KENTUCKY'S BASKETBALL BARON that discusses Rupp' "1923 Champion season" at Kansas. This would have only been reference to a Helms Foundation Championship. Rupp believed it was a "championship". All good Wildcat fans should have read this book in grade school. I don't carry my book on the road (travelling for business) or I would have quoted page numbers for you.
This book approved by Coach Rupp, the UK media guide and Buck's shows that at one time Rupp and UK embraced the Helms Foundation Championship. It is clear that your fan base and the Duke fan base do not embrace it today. I understand why Duke fans believe that. And, I am okay that BBN agrees with the Dukies.
This book approved by Coach Rupp, the UK media guide and Buck's shows that at one time Rupp and UK embraced the Helms Foundation Championship. It is clear that your fan base and the Duke fan base do not embrace it today. I understand why Duke fans believe that. And, I am okay that BBN agrees with the Dukies.
And we are ok that you guys flaunt bakery titles in your arena next to a real one just to give the impression that you are on par with those of us with a bunch of real titles.
Good news, I hear Little Debbie and Hostess will be looking back 100 years and naming their own champions as well.
If other schools have massive Championship envy and need to boost their insecurity to feel bigger about themselves, lets not argue with them, lets just feel sorry for them and leave them ranting impotently with their delusions.
The only problem I have with it is how the media talks about KU's and UNC's helms titles yet never acknowledge UK's.
They do this because KU and UNC count them as legitimate titles and we do not.
It's annoying, but it's our fault for having higher standards and not listing our Helms titles.
They do this because KU and UNC count them as legitimate titles and we do not.
It's annoying, but it's our fault for having higher standards and not listing our Helms titles.
We're sitting on a pile of eight fine diamonds.
Somebody is trying to convince us their quartz is just as good.
Somebody is trying to convince us their quartz is just as good.
If it means not celebrating make believe titles, than we do "hang with the Dukies".
You all can continue to slum with the Heels in Fantasy Land.
Let me put it this way, UK has 15 "titles" (NCAA: 48, 49, 51, 58, 78, 96, 98, 12)(Helms: 33, 48, 49, 51, 54, 58, 78).....since Helms and National Championships are NOT the same.
Technically Kansas only has 6 "Titles" (NCAA: 52, 88, 08) and 3 Helms (22, 23, 52)
So Kansas is still way behind ether way...
Wrong. If UK counted Helms titles, then they would have 10. Eight legit NCAA tournament titles, plus two Helms (1933 and 1954).
In the mid 1950's the NCAA tournament was young. I think that it would be rational to say hey we won the titles in 48, 49 and 51, yeah and we have these Helms titles also. They are trophies.
Now that the NCAA is nearly 80 years old it is a little tired to refer to them. But Kansas and North Carolina do.
Not just Kansas and UNC, the Helms are accepted by most basketball fans and media. UK and Duke fans are the minority.
I think the greater controversy lies in the "retro" aspect of some of them. I understand they were naming title winners during years when the very young NCAA Tournament was going on, however going back 5-10-15 years to name past champs for which the players on those teams were blissfully unaware all those years before Helms is what most rational minded fans have a hard time digesting. As pointed out in the case of UNC'S infamous 1924 title, Butler claims themselves as "National Champions" from the same year as they played in some kind of tournament back then. So who is the champion of 1924? are there two of them? Heels fans have said "yea but we went undefeated", well so did Texas in 1924. (23-0 record)
I think Jon Scott has said in the past (and I sincerely hope I'm remembering this right and not putting my words in his mouth) that he had no issue with recognizing them but that they should be recognized as something separate from real "National Championships" that were won on the court between two opponents. I think that's a fair position, as opposed to portraying them the way that both UNC and Kansas have which imo is disingenuous. (merchandising, etc)
Helms was never even talked about in North Carolina until around April 2, 2001 when they were tied again in National Championships. And the marketing of Helms on Carolina's part really took off in the years after that.
I think Jon Scott has said in the past (and I sincerely hope I'm remembering this right and not putting my words in his mouth) that he had no issue with recognizing them but that they should be recognized as something separate from real "National Championships" that were won on the court between two opponents. I think that's a fair position, as opposed to portraying them the way that both UNC and Kansas have which imo is disingenuous. (merchandising, etc)
Helms was never even talked about in North Carolina until around April 2, 2001 when they were tied again in National Championships. And the marketing of Helms on Carolina's part really took off in the years after that.
There are numerous 'shared' titles in football. I heard no loud protest to take down Helms, AP, Coaches' banners when football went to the BCS and no loud protest to remove BCS titles when the 4-Team Playoff started. It's a Kentucky thing. It is a view that your fan base feels strong about that is not share by most of the NCAA basketball fans with the exception of aforementioned Duke.
I always hear the Football comparison, Football has always been different and had a screwed up system. To quote Dan Wetzel who penned an article several years back about this: "they don't do named in College Basketball."
As I said though, nothing wrong with recognizing them, they just should be differentiated.
Fine, I say we go ahead and hang banners for the 1933 and 1954 Helms Titles and pretend they are real championships. While we're at it, let's go ahead and hang a banner for the 1946 NIT championship (that was actually won on the court when the NIT was as big as the NCAA Tourney) and pretend that it should be counted as a real National Championship as well. We'll, of course, make all 11 banners indistinguishable from the others and begin our quest to surpass UCLA for most titles with #12 (hopefully this year). Then we'll be first in pretty much every meaningful historical category (championships, all time wins, all time winning %, NCAA Tourney wins, Final Four appearances, etc.)...I like it.
If that were true, then most basketball fans and media would refer to UK as a 10x title winner. I don't hear that ever stated.
So Kentucky and Duke fans are the only ones smart enough to distinguish the difference , that's a sad commentary on college basketball history outside of those two bastions of knowledge .
Kansas fans whining about what's posted on a UK board , just a thought but maybe the content on a KU board would be more suitable to you .
Does UK's humiliation of helms kansas last year still torture you?
Really? How many Helms banners are flying at UCLA? Indiana? Oklahoma State (A&M)? Cincinnati? Etc. Seems to me KU and UNC are the ones in the minority.
Please list the current, active members of the media (not employed by KU) that have publicly decreed their support for Helms Title recognition.
It's a posthumous award from a bread company! No more, no less. If you guys want to base your history on stuff like that then, go right ahead. The rest of college basketball will go right on laughing at you.
This post suggests you have a rather poor understanding of football and the mythical "championship" that remains such to this day. Football has to get by on what it has. They've not had the championship and tournament structure that basketball has enjoy for decades. Its so bad in football that you won't even find a BCS champion listed on ncca.org. Even the four team playoff is a contrivance of the BCS and not formally recognized by the NCAA in the same manner as basketball. Its rather silly to point to football as an analogy for basketball.
Also, its not a Kentucky thing, as you say. Pretty much any fan that has any grasp on the history of both sports understands the distinction between the two. I don't know anyone that affords any equivalency between Helms and an actual NCAA championship, except those fans and administration trying to "shore up" the image of a weak sister team.
I think you have personal experience with such a weak sister, no?
Kansas and UNC*** share something else beyond a coach. A healthy fantasy life...
Indiana, UCLA Oklahoma State (A&M) and Cincinnati were never awarded a Helms Foundation Title prior to 1939 before the start of the NCAA Tournament.
I would like to see you answer the question that he asked instead of cherry picking one statement. That question directly addresses your statement about the acceptance of the Helms.
Here is his "question" or more properly, his request: Please list the current, active members of the media (not employed by KU) that have publicly decreed their support for Helms Title recognition.
Which schools (other than KU and UNC) display their Helms banners alongside their national championship banners?
Was there any other "National Title's" to be won at the time?
I honestly don't know and couldn't bring myself to read the whole thread.
If not, why not hang the Helms banners? Feel free to hang yours and count them. I honestly don't care.
You are a few fames ahead of us in all time wins. I wanna catch up and pass you.
You also have the 22-6 thing (but that dates back a ways. Like Helms banners. One is laughable the other part you tout. Hmmmm.).
Anyway I want KU to adress that inequality as well. I am a Kansas Fan. I want to catch and beat UK in ALL categories duh.
Hopefully this year makes a dent. You guys are good. I think we are better.
I honestly don't know and couldn't bring myself to read the whole thread.
If not, why not hang the Helms banners? Feel free to hang yours and count them. I honestly don't care.
You are a few fames ahead of us in all time wins. I wanna catch up and pass you.
You also have the 22-6 thing (but that dates back a ways. Like Helms banners. One is laughable the other part you tout. Hmmmm.).
Anyway I want KU to adress that inequality as well. I am a Kansas Fan. I want to catch and beat UK in ALL categories duh.
Hopefully this year makes a dent. You guys are good. I think we are better.
