I think he saw the reaction his six star review got among the hard cores so he upped it to see if he could get them even hotter.
CI Wrestling Thread #56
- Thread starter K-mac18
- Start date
By his rating system the Flair/Steamboat triology is now a C-
I will never understand why people get worked up over Meltzers ratings. I mean back in the 90s if a movie came out and Siskel and Ebert gave it "3 thumbs up" would you really be upset?
That being said, I don't agree with the rating. It was an awesome match. But Dave said on twitter and on his podcast that part of his rating is how great the overall story has been over the last 2 years.
To me that is a negative.
When I watched the Ciampa / Gargano match from Takeover New Orleans, my entire knowledge of the feud was the promo package they played before the match started. By the end of that match I was ready for Gargano to literally tear Ciampas head off. It's my favorite match of the year.
I guarantee you could pluck any random 20 year old out of a WWE crowed and show them the Austin / Hart match from WM 13 and they'd think it was awesome. Personally I remember the storyline when I was in middle school, but any random fan that doesn't remember it would all in on Austin after that match even if they'd never even heard of either of them.
That being said, I don't agree with the rating. It was an awesome match. But Dave said on twitter and on his podcast that part of his rating is how great the overall story has been over the last 2 years.
To me that is a negative.
When I watched the Ciampa / Gargano match from Takeover New Orleans, my entire knowledge of the feud was the promo package they played before the match started. By the end of that match I was ready for Gargano to literally tear Ciampas head off. It's my favorite match of the year.
I guarantee you could pluck any random 20 year old out of a WWE crowed and show them the Austin / Hart match from WM 13 and they'd think it was awesome. Personally I remember the storyline when I was in middle school, but any random fan that doesn't remember it would all in on Austin after that match even if they'd never even heard of either of them.
I mean Dave should have just capped it at 5 stars and gave every great/match of the year candidate 5 stars.
He sounds like a character of himself when he defends his 6 and 7 star rating for the Okada/Omega matches...ironically for him I think he got caught up in the moment.
He sounds like a character of himself when he defends his 6 and 7 star rating for the Okada/Omega matches...ironically for him I think he got caught up in the moment.
If you put the letter S in front of Hitman, you have my exact opinion of Bret Hart.
Bret Hart once said that the H's in Triple H stood for "homo."
So Homo Homo Homo then? That's his name?
I don't hate Bret as much as I act like I do on here, but when he had to do heel promos towards other wrestlers rather than towards the fans...brutal. I'm also not sure he ever realized this whole thing was all a work. At some point the train left the station there.
Is Bret Hart the best wrestler of all time? Yes.
I don't think he could be overrated as most people don't have him in the top 5-10. If anything, people tend to underrate him because his promos were hit or miss and he wasn't a giant box office attraction in the US.
But his 1997 and WCW promos were really good, if sometimes clunky. And if any other combination of wrestlers on the roster (including HBK) had to be the champs for WWF for the entirety of 1992-1996 then the company would have sank. Bret wasn't a monstrous draw, but he played a big part in saving WWF in the New Generation Era. He also kicked Austin's career off and inadvertently created the Mr. McMahon character.
Plus he has at least 5 legit classic matches.
Finally, I'll never begrudge a guy for taking wrestling too seriously. I don't pay money to watch guys jerk around and make me feel smart by winking at me and ish. Go out and let me think it's real for a few minutes.
I don't think he could be overrated as most people don't have him in the top 5-10. If anything, people tend to underrate him because his promos were hit or miss and he wasn't a giant box office attraction in the US.
But his 1997 and WCW promos were really good, if sometimes clunky. And if any other combination of wrestlers on the roster (including HBK) had to be the champs for WWF for the entirety of 1992-1996 then the company would have sank. Bret wasn't a monstrous draw, but he played a big part in saving WWF in the New Generation Era. He also kicked Austin's career off and inadvertently created the Mr. McMahon character.
Plus he has at least 5 legit classic matches.
Finally, I'll never begrudge a guy for taking wrestling too seriously. I don't pay money to watch guys jerk around and make me feel smart by winking at me and ish. Go out and let me think it's real for a few minutes.
Last edited:
I think in order to cut a good promo, you need to have a combination of 2 of the following:
- some semblance of intelligence (see Foley, Mick)
- ability to “wing it” (see Rock, The and Austin, Steve)
- charisma (see Flair, Rick)
- the look (see Hogan, Hulk)
Any of those 2 and you can cut a good promo (why am I using 2nd person like Hubie Brown?) Anyway, Bret had maybe one of those, and it wasn’t intelligence.
- some semblance of intelligence (see Foley, Mick)
- ability to “wing it” (see Rock, The and Austin, Steve)
- charisma (see Flair, Rick)
- the look (see Hogan, Hulk)
Any of those 2 and you can cut a good promo (why am I using 2nd person like Hubie Brown?) Anyway, Bret had maybe one of those, and it wasn’t intelligence.
Bret is a good babyface in the ring. Bret is not a good babyface on the mic.
When he was able to cut loose and go full heel he was much better. In fact, you can probably count the number of good whitemeat babyface promo guys on one hand. It's an extraordinary talent.
Bret is pretty intelligent. Don't get that comment. His Calgary Sun articles and book are well written and his thoughts collected.
When he was able to cut loose and go full heel he was much better. In fact, you can probably count the number of good whitemeat babyface promo guys on one hand. It's an extraordinary talent.
Bret is pretty intelligent. Don't get that comment. His Calgary Sun articles and book are well written and his thoughts collected.
Bret's book might be the best wrestling book ever. I prefer Mick Foley's first book because I think he's a more sympathetic author than Bret, but Bret's book is the gold standard in terms of pure content.
The thing about being a white meat face is that you don't get a lot of opportunities to speak, so when you do it's just not very good. Bret's face promos weren't great, but they were better than HBK's promos. Bret's heel promos (as long as he wasn't calling Triple H Homo Homo Homo) were so good because they were rooted in correct logic and in his own mind they were shoots, and that's Michael Hayes's #1 rule of doing promos - the bad guy has to believe he's right.
Best white meat babyface promo ever has to be Dusty, right? Or Hogan. That's kind of the chocolate vs. vanilla argument. Both of them did it great in their own way. Hogan couldn't talk about hard times, and Dusty couldn't talk about rescuing Donald Trump from the ocean. Everybody else who does it well is either crazy (Ultimate Warrior) or is just doing their heel promo on heels.
The thing about being a white meat face is that you don't get a lot of opportunities to speak, so when you do it's just not very good. Bret's face promos weren't great, but they were better than HBK's promos. Bret's heel promos (as long as he wasn't calling Triple H Homo Homo Homo) were so good because they were rooted in correct logic and in his own mind they were shoots, and that's Michael Hayes's #1 rule of doing promos - the bad guy has to believe he's right.
Best white meat babyface promo ever has to be Dusty, right? Or Hogan. That's kind of the chocolate vs. vanilla argument. Both of them did it great in their own way. Hogan couldn't talk about hard times, and Dusty couldn't talk about rescuing Donald Trump from the ocean. Everybody else who does it well is either crazy (Ultimate Warrior) or is just doing their heel promo on heels.
I think Hogan was more of a straight white meat face on promos. He was kind of like Superman. Dusty could garner more sympathy, but a lot of his promos still had Muhammad Ali, self-aggrandizing aspects. Now, Hogan was the shoot champion of that and got booked that way plus mentioning the 24" pythons. But his promos were, for the most part, definitely more "I've got my back against the wall and I'm going overcome the odds" than "I'm the best and I'm going to whip that bad guys ass and also I love poor people"
Sting probably had the most babyface fire as a promo. I don't know if you would call them "good", but he got them over through sheer intensity. Like you could, if you tried, picture Dusty or Hogan as bad guys even at their whitest of meat periods. Surfer Sting was just 100% pure babyface. A lot like Steamboat, but way better on the mic.
Honorable mention as ultimate baby face...Hillbilly Jim. Can't count out Duggan*, either. Like Sting, neither one was "good", but they got it over
*Except in a match. Then you could always count out Duggan
Sting probably had the most babyface fire as a promo. I don't know if you would call them "good", but he got them over through sheer intensity. Like you could, if you tried, picture Dusty or Hogan as bad guys even at their whitest of meat periods. Surfer Sting was just 100% pure babyface. A lot like Steamboat, but way better on the mic.
Honorable mention as ultimate baby face...Hillbilly Jim. Can't count out Duggan*, either. Like Sting, neither one was "good", but they got it over
*Except in a match. Then you could always count out Duggan
Last edited:
Jerry Lawler was very good at heel or face promo's.
I think when people discuss Bret as being overrated they over look how good he was in the tag team division before becoming WWF champ.
The man was damn good. That said if he is in your top 10, you are either a fan or stretching, and if he is in your top 5 I’m not too sure we need discuss much.
The man was damn good. That said if he is in your top 10, you are either a fan or stretching, and if he is in your top 5 I’m not too sure we need discuss much.
I just figure someone did most of Bret’s writing for him. On the other hand Foley seemed to write his own stuff and just have an editor go over it. Just a theory. Could be wrong.
Bret definitely wrote the book, or somebody is VERY good at sound like Bret Hart in text form. But he supposedly kept extremely detailed journals during his career of all the times he got screwed and all the rats he got.
I always figured no one really wrote their own books. They told stories to someone and had professional writers write them for em... ya know... make grammatical corrections and spelling and whatnot so the book didn’t look like a tard wrote it.
I’ve heard Bret Hart talk and I do not believe Bret Hart wrote his own book.
I’ve heard Bret Hart talk and I do not believe Bret Hart wrote his own book.
Bret hart overrated? Wow you guys are crazy. He's one of if not the greatest ever. His promos were fine to.
As BKH said pretty sure Bret wrote his own book, he kept notes about everything.
Anyway looking forward to Takeover tonight, saw that Mauro Ranallo won’t be calling the show due to having to do Showtime Boxing. Prediction time.
Black over Lars
Ciampa over Gargano (one more match in Brooklyn?)
Shayna over Nikki
Undisputed over Burch and Lorcan
Dream over Richocet
Anyway looking forward to Takeover tonight, saw that Mauro Ranallo won’t be calling the show due to having to do Showtime Boxing. Prediction time.
Black over Lars
Ciampa over Gargano (one more match in Brooklyn?)
Shayna over Nikki
Undisputed over Burch and Lorcan
Dream over Richocet
Respect Bret's work in the ring. Never thought much of his promos outside of his GD-laced tirade in 97.
Dude takes himself entirely too seriously and comes off as a whiny ass nowadays.
Dude takes himself entirely too seriously and comes off as a whiny ass nowadays.
And I agree with Transy - wrestlers need to take what they do seriously. Or at least great ones do. You just have to strike that balance between what Bret Hart and to a lesser extent Lance Storm did, which is take it so seriously that nothing is fun and everything is a matter of life and death, and the old Clique mentality of "This is all fake so I'm going to destroy kayfabe because none of this matters."
I guess my thing with Bret is his insistence that his fans were different than typical wrestling fans. They're not. They're still wrestling fans. I was a fan of Bret when he came back in 1996 - but I liked Sid more, I liked HBK more, and I eventually liked Austin more and before I was supposed to.
I guess my thing with Bret is his insistence that his fans were different than typical wrestling fans. They're not. They're still wrestling fans. I was a fan of Bret when he came back in 1996 - but I liked Sid more, I liked HBK more, and I eventually liked Austin more and before I was supposed to.
This was the last good Monday Night Raw match for like three years. At some point they just stopped even having the champion wrestle on TV, which as we know by now isn't the best strategy in modern times.
Best non-angle match is probably Bret vs. Benoit for the Owen tribute episode of Nitro from Kansas City, but if you disqualify that one, it's either Bret vs. the Kid or HBK vs. my boy Shelton Benjamin.
Sean Waltman is one who really doesn't credit for his talent because of the whole X-Pac heat thing. He's got a really good mind for this stuff and would make a great agent if he could stay clean. Jericho said in his book that Waltman was the guy they threw all of the new guys with during the Attitude Era to see if they could go.
If I had infinity money to waste on a wrestling promotion and I was assured he'd be clean and away from Hall and Nash, Waltman would definitely be my booker
Also, if Shelton even had the charisma of Lance Storm, he'd be one of the all time greats. Dude is the example of not having "it".
Also, if Shelton even had the charisma of Lance Storm, he'd be one of the all time greats. Dude is the example of not having "it".
Mother of mercy, it's Keith Lee.
Keith Lee is my favorite guy on the indies. I don't care what happens to him from here on out, I'm just glad he got signed.
Johnny Gargano is unbelievable. He basically has all of the good babyface characteristics of Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and Ricky Steamboat all at once. His 2018 year has been on another planet BUT KENNY OMEGA no. That's how much I like Johnny.
But then there's Tommaso Ciampa, or Tomato, as my phone insisted his name was. This guy goes out there in front of crowds that think they know everything and generally prefer heels, and still manages to get nuclear heat. Velveteen Dream is an amazing heel who does his job incredibly well but still does things that get cheers. Tomato on the other hand...people want to see him die like it's 1985 in the Omni every night.
I couldn't believe they gave him the win tonight because that means they have to do it again and WTF do you do after those two matches short of legally sanctioned murder?
Who from previous generations is that irredeemable as a heel character?
But then there's Tommaso Ciampa, or Tomato, as my phone insisted his name was. This guy goes out there in front of crowds that think they know everything and generally prefer heels, and still manages to get nuclear heat. Velveteen Dream is an amazing heel who does his job incredibly well but still does things that get cheers. Tomato on the other hand...people want to see him die like it's 1985 in the Omni every night.
I couldn't believe they gave him the win tonight because that means they have to do it again and WTF do you do after those two matches short of legally sanctioned murder?
Who from previous generations is that irredeemable as a heel character?
yeah Velveteen Dream kept getting cheered at the show on Thursday. Didn't seem to matter what he said.
I think the only thing left for Ciampa / Gargano is a hell in a cell or i quit
I think the only thing left for Ciampa / Gargano is a hell in a cell or i quit
Similar threads
