Yeah he’s not too 8 for me and most (prob towards like 90%+). PG is one of the most stacked positions in the league.
Bill Simmons doesn't think De'Aaron Fox is a top 35 player, or even a top 8 player at his position.
- Thread starter Son_Of_Saul
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I just put together my like 25-45 for the sake of the argument, and he was #38 for me
🤣
I can tell from your post you haven't watched the NBA since the "good ole days" of the 80s
Beating the Magic isn't saying much, they are 2-8, tied for the second worst record in the league
I mean he’s right. Fox isn’t a top 35 player. How many guys make the all star team every year? He’s never been close to making it.
As for top 8 PG…Steph, Luka, Ja, Trae, Garland, Harden, Chris Paul, DeJounte Murray, Lamelo, FVV, Kyrie, SGA. Fox isn’t better than any of these guys, that’s 12.
Then there’s that next tier, Haliburton, Cade Cunningham, Jalen Brunson, etc. he’s probably in this tier.
As for top 8 PG…Steph, Luka, Ja, Trae, Garland, Harden, Chris Paul, DeJounte Murray, Lamelo, FVV, Kyrie, SGA. Fox isn’t better than any of these guys, that’s 12.
Then there’s that next tier, Haliburton, Cade Cunningham, Jalen Brunson, etc. he’s probably in this tier.
28th ranked PER.
6th ranked PER among point guards.
26 ppg in only 30 minutes/game.
Shooting around 55% from the field.
Name 35 better players.
Simmons argument is that Fox is worth two maybe picks and a trash contract in Westbrook.
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He has the 6th best PER among all active NBA point guards, so based on that, he's right there in the first tier.
And if your argument is based on what he's done historically, that's irrelevant to the argument Simmons is making about Fox right now.
Name 35 definitely better players.
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So he’s not that far off at all, could make an argument either way. Certainly not a fight worth picking. And Simmons isn’t a hot take schmuck, if Fox proves him to be wrong here Simmons would be the first to say so. Dude isn’t Colin Cowherd.
| Hollinger Stats - Player Efficiency Rating - Qualified Point Guards | |||||||||||||
RK | PLAYER | GP | MPG | TS% | AST | TO | USG | ORR | DRR | REBR | PER | VA | EWA |
1 | Luka Doncic, DAL | 8 | 36.5 | .629 | 21.2 | 8.3 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 36.75 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
2 | Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, OKC | 8 | 35.4 | .625 | 17.5 | 9.7 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 30.45 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
3 | Damian Lillard, POR | 5 | 35.0 | .671 | 14.6 | 12.1 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 28.69 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
4 | Ja Morant, MEM | 8 | 31.6 | .632 | 20.5 | 12.1 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 28.01 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
5 | Stephen Curry, GS | 9 | 34.9 | .662 | 20.5 | 8.7 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 27.92 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
6 | De'Aaron Fox, SAC | 7 | 32.1 | .648 | 15.9 | 13.4 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 24.66 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
7 | Tyrese Haliburton, IND | 9 | 33.7 | .635 | 31.2 | 11.2 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 23.97 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
8 | Trae Young, ATL | 9 | 35.0 | .526 | 23.8 | 8.4 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 23.18 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
9 | Jrue Holiday, MIL | 9 | 33.6 | .541 | 27.8 | 8.1 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 22.82 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
10 | Malcolm Brogdon, BOS | 9 | 24.3 | .614 | 21.2 | 10.6 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 20.69 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
RK | PLAYER | GP | MPG | TS% | AST | TO | USG | ORR | DRR | REBR | PER | VA | EWA |
11 | Jalen Brunson, NY | 9 | 33.9 | .570 | 28.1 | 6.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 20.61 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
12 | Kyrie Irving, BKN | 8 | 38.6 | .566 | 16.4 | 7.6 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 20.55 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
13 | Darius Garland, CLE | 2 | 28.0 | .531 | 28.8 | 11.5 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 20.31 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
14 | Chris Paul, PHX | 9 | 32.0 | .517 | 47.2 | 6.7 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 19.07 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
15 | Bones Hyland, DEN | 7 | 19.1 | .543 | 22.6 | 8.6 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 18.83 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
16 | Tyrese Maxey, PHI | 10 | 37.9 | .610 | 14.4 | 8.3 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 18.58 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
17 | John Wall, LAC | 7 | 21.4 | .517 | 25.2 | 8.4 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 18.38 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
18 | Tyler Herro, MIA | 10 | 31.4 | .585 | 12.1 | 9.8 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 17.78 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
19 | Collin Sexton, UTAH | 10 | 21.7 | .600 | 12.7 | 11.4 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 17.01 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
20 | Spencer Dinwiddie, DAL | 8 | 32.8 | .594 | 20.8 | 8.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 16.99 | 0.0 | 0.0 |
But keep in mind that Simmons is making the case that two picks and Westbrook is worth the risk by letting go of the 24-year-old Fox.
Those Lakers picks could end up being trash, and there's at least 15 NBA franchises that would gladly have Fox over what they presently have running point guards for their respective franchises.
I concede that Simmons isn't being a blowhard on this one, however.
I can get on board with that. Simmons might be wrong, but he’s not a blowhard. He gives fair takes and they’re almost always well grounded with a good basis. And if he’s wrong he’ll say so. He’s not a clown like Cowherd or Stephen A just saying things to get attention.
You’re using PER, a flawed, and outdated stat, based on a 9-10 game sample size. That being your strongest argument shows how weak the argument is. By your disingenuous and flawed argument, Steph Curry is the 5th best point guard in the NBA, and SGA is better than him.
If we’re gonna have this discussion let’s not cherry pick stats over tiny sample sizes, yeah?
I don’t even need to name 35 better players, I can just name 10+ better players at his position.
No order:
Steph, Luka, Trae, Ja, Dame, Kyrie, Harden, Garland, CP3, SGA, DeJounte Murray, Lamelo and FVV are all better players than fox right now. That’s 13 Point guards. You could argue Jrue Holiday or even Tyrese Haliburton are better too. But I’m not gonna give you the opportunity to ignore the entire list and just argue over one or two players.
Now add guys like LeBron, KD, Kawhi, PG, Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Tatum, Ingram, Mitchell, Booker, Middleton, Siakam, Butler, Gobert, Jaylen Brown, Bam, AD, CJ McCollum, Zion, KAT, Lavine, Beal
That’s 36 players. Even if you want to take away 5-6 of those players and be a pedant (which I suspect you will), he’s at best the 30th best player in the league and still not a top 8 PG. So Simmons was still pretty much on the money.
I think debating his top 35 status (while still wrong imo) is more valid then his top 8 PG status. That one is nearing the non debatable status for me
Yeah pg is the deepest position in basketball . Saying he’s not a top 8 PG isn’t crazy .
I never said PER was the only measurement, but it is a valuable measurement. Would you consider field goal percentage to be a measurement that matters, because Fox is sitting at 56% while Garland sits at 39% and your buddy Trae Young sits at 38%.
You're making the same case Simmons is making, however, which is treating subjective outlooks as definitive objectivity. I'm doing the same, but I'll gladly own that. I'm not taking Trae over Fox, and I'm not sure anyone would. He's a volume scorer with really horrific shooting numbers. You taking Garland? That's subjective. His efficiency comps are on par with Fox, except Garland is shooting almost as bad as Young from the field at 39%. Fox towers above both of them at around 55%.
Something that definitely needs to be in this discussion is age. Do you take Fox over Paul or Steph or Kyrie if it's just a question of just this season? No, but he's only 24 years old. Part of Simmons' main argument is in regard to the Lakers future. You take Fox over many of those "top 36" guys on your list if you're building for the future, and you take him over many of the young guys, too. Simmons thesis is based on which option spells the best long-term residual, and Fox's age has to be a significant factor.
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I’m certain @1Catmantoo would absolutely decimate Bill Simmons in any intellectual debate, especially about NBA basketball.
would love to see it 😂
Man you are really off on this. Look up every possible list of PG's you can find online or on twitter even and they would all have Trae above Fox.
I personally like to refer to real life results. Trae taking his team to 2 games away from the finals while Fox hasnt sniffed the playoffs in his career makes me lean Trae by a good amount.
If Simmons posted a poll on twitter. Fox v Young. Most people would vote Trae. Believing otherwise is a denial of reality.
Citing "most people" is not a particularly strong way to reinforce an argument.
"Most people" think they're at least a 7/10 on the looks scale.
"Most people" stare like zombies at their smart phones in their free time.
"Most people" think the Kardashians were a family that was worth following for 15+ years.
Citing "most people" doesn't cut it for me.
Lol, no one in the NBA is taking Fox over Young based off of 2 weeks of this season. We’ve seen Young carry a team deep into the playoffs. We’re still waiting for Fox to get to 500.
And I never claimed you said it was, man. I just told you it’s a flawed and outdated stat that was your only argument of *any* substance.
Using any type of measurement based off a 7 game sample size isn’t really valuable at all under the scope of an 82 game season, which is something you can’t seem to grasp. Maybe you do, but just want to die on this hill for Fox because he’s a UK guy, and everyone has an obsession of telling “sports analysts” due to a victim complex — who knows. But the reality is comparing players SOLEY off the minimal games played this season is comical, especially if it’s your main and only argument.
No, I wouldn’t consider field goal % to matter IN THE FIRST 7 GAMES OF THE SEASON”
I could show you many examples of one clearly inferior player putting better stats in some categories over clearly superior players all day.
For example, in the format of your argument:
“Donovan Mitchell is better than LeBron James. Mitchell is averaging 31 PPG on 48% shooting, where as LeBron is averaging 24 PPG on 43%.”
“You wouldn’t take Mikal Bridges over Luka Doncic? Haha! Mikal is shooting 60% from the field while Luka is only averaging 53%.”
“SGA is better than Joel Embiid. SGA is 3rd in PER, while Embiid is 18th”
“Alperen Sengun is better than DeAarron Fox! Sengun is 10th in PER, Fox is 12”
You see how dumb your logic is? You’re using a disingenuous argument based on a small sample size of 7 games, and disregarding past full seasons of data.
I’m fully confident if you polled all 30 GMs who’d theyd rather take, Trae or Fox, 30/30 would pick Trae without hesitation. Fortunately for fans of NBA teams, GMs don’t take the first 10 games of the season to make an evaluation of a player and disregard the past completely.
Trae is a multi time all star, all-nba selection, and has brought his team to the ECF, in which he almost won — against the defending champs.
Fox has never made an all star team (most likely won’t make many due to the guard play in the west), an all-nba team, and has never made the playoffs
Trae Young’s CAREER averages are arguably better than Fox’s stats over this tiny 10 game sample size that you’re so bullish on, haha:
Trae’s career averages (289 games): 25/4/9 on 44/35/87
Fox this year (7 games): 26/6/5 on 55/37/87
Why don’t we compare last years averages instead of 7 game sample sizes?
Last year,
Trae: 28/4/10 on 46/38(on 8 attempts!!)/90
Fox: 23/4/6/ on 47/30/75
They aren’t even in the same league, not kidding. Trae is on a different planet in every aspect on offense, and even though he’s a terrible defender, Fox isn’t anything special on that end so it doesn’t really matter.
Yes, I’m also unequivocally taking Garland. Because I don’t just look at 7 game sample sizes to fit my narrative.
Garlands been in the league for 3 full seasons (his 4th year just started) and already has a better statistically season than Fox has ever had, made an all star team, and made the play-in game. He’s not as drastically better than fox like Trae is, but he’s still notably better. He’s already better and he’ll continue to get better (not that potential has anything to do with this, but just wanted to add on.)
Fox doesn’t have a better season than 22/3/9 on 46/38/89, while making the play-in, and the all star team. GMs might even prefer Garlands more steady and less reckless play than Trae, so he would definitely be picked over Fox.
And no, age doesn’t need to be discussed WHATSOEVER. That’s just you moving the goalposts because you realize how little of an argument you have for fox. We’re talking about the best 8 PG’s right now. The best 35 players in the league right now. Fox definitely isn’t in the top 8 PG’s and he might be in the top 35, but he’s no higher than 30. Which is just being trivial. Simmons was right.
The fact that I named 10+ PGs and like 20+ players I thought Fox was better, and the only guys you had a big enough problem with were 2 players, shows you all you need to know.
Fox is great player. He’s a fringe all star at best. Simmons was right about him, just because he’s a UK guy doesn’t mean you have to overrate him.
It's worth mentioning, again, that the De'Aaron Fox we've had to start this season, is showing MASSIVE improvement over what he was the first 5-6 seasons. Almost all of his shooting percentages are up 10 percentage points, and his FG%, 3pt% and FT% are almost all career highs for him.
So it's possible that if he keeps this up, and stays healthy, he might prove to be a top8 PG for the season. He might even be on the MIP list.
So it's possible that if he keeps this up, and stays healthy, he might prove to be a top8 PG for the season. He might even be on the MIP list.
It’s a stat, sure. You are misrepresenting it as an objective means of proving who is better, which was never the intention.
If you're going to base your argument on current-season PER, then I'd love to hear your argument about how Alperen Sengun is a top 10 player in the NBA. Not a top 10 center, but a top 10 NBA player
Or that Bol Bol is top 20
Or that Kevin Love is top 25
Or that Nick Richards is top 30
Or that Nic Claxton is top 35
Or that Bobby Portis is top 40
Or that Larry Nance Jr is top 45
www.basketball-reference.com
Or that Bol Bol is top 20
Or that Kevin Love is top 25
Or that Nick Richards is top 30
Or that Nic Claxton is top 35
Or that Bobby Portis is top 40
Or that Larry Nance Jr is top 45
2022-23 NBA Player Stats: Advanced | Basketball-Reference.com
Checkout the Advanced player stats for 2022-23 NBA Season and more on Basketball-Reference.com
www.basketball-reference.com
You've never had very many tricks in your arsenal. After a few rounds of petty rebuttal, you've always historically resorted to swearing and name calling.
It's weird. You, @Heisenberg, and @Bostoncat are the trinity of merging opinions with petty attacks on people's character and intelligence. You guys don't know how to separate debate from petty attacks on people. It's weird stuff. You don't think Fox is a top 35 guy? Fine. Why go off l and make it personal? It's what you've always done, man.
If you're going to be like that, politely piss off. I'd rather not deal with your angsty condescension.
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Yeah, like this whole thread isn’t insinuating that the people who disagree with you are stupid…
