Bates gets future cast to memphis

[kyjeff1]

But you have to remember that even the most sophisticated counter arguments to your points over the last five years have repeatedly failed. Here is the general outlook from that bunch:

1. Around 2017-2018ish, we were told that Cal was changing. He was starting to target guys like PJ, Tyler, SKJ, Tai, Shai, Quade, etc. - and those guys were multi-year guys. The paradigm was shifting.

2. Thus, Cal was learning his lesson. He was going to build rosters for multiyear competition, develop players over the long haul. "Give it time", they said.

3. And then Quade, SKJ, Matthews, Baker, Juzang, Whitney, Wynyard, Humphries, Gabriel, Vanderbilt, Briscoe, Askew, Boston, and Hagans happened, and the same voices went silent. Some of them didn't post here at all last season. A total Houdini act when the fruit of the "give it time" outlook became totally rotten.

4. Turned out, the Quade Greens of the world had the exact same mentality that that the Karl Towns of the world had: UK is good for one thing, expediency toward the NBA. That's all the staff pushed, and Cal openly mocked other vital notions (that mattered to parents of recruits) like Duke's "set for life" mantra (that keeps working to this day for them).


On the flipside, and this is to Cal's credit, the staff did shake things up this summer and address EVERY need. I'm willing to wait it out and give this next 2-3 years a chance. Cal landed penetrators, shooters, and added REAL assistant coaches.

If he caps this recruiting cycle off with Lively, Sharpe, and others, I'm sold.

That’s 100% accurate… .all of it.

But here's my feeling, I don't think Cal CAN change it now, even if he TRULY wanted to. Heck, I don't think he wants to. The lure of getting kids drafted us too great to him.

So, he either knows he can’t change it, or he simply doesn't want to change it. He brought Orlando and Chin in. He didn't bring them in for their long term developmental skills, he brought them in to fix his recruiting problem.

But I'll say it again, if you're going to play this game, you better hit at least one HR at all 5 positions EVERY year. You can't miss on a Ben Simmons and replace him with a Wenyen Gabriel and think you've done your job. No, when you decide to go with one-and-dones, you can't settle for project kids when you know they are leaving after 1 or two years whether they are ready for the NBA or not.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

That’s 100% accurate… .all of it.

But here's my feeling, I don't think Cal CAN change it now, even if he TRULY wanted to. Heck, I don't think he wants to. The lure of getting kids drafted us too great to him.

So, he either knows he can’t change it, or he simply doesn't want to change it. He brought Orlando and Chin in. He didn't bring them in for their long term developmental skills, he brought them in to fix his recruiting problem.

But I'll say it again, if you're going to play this game, you better hit at least one HR at all 5 positions EVERY year. You can't miss on a Ben Simmons and replace him with a Wenyen Gabriel and think you've done your job. No, when you decide to go with one-and-dones, you can't settle for project kids when you know they are leaving after 1 or two years whether they are ready for the NBA or not.

I think he's attempting a hybrid, and I'm cool with that. Get Sharpe, get Lively, but pad the roster with some Gradys and Toppins as well. I see it as him mixing a bit of his 2006 and 2007 Memphis teams with a bit of his 2014 and 2015 UK teams.

This is what many of us have wanted the whole time anyway.

 

[kyjeff1]

But remember, Lively and Sharpe are leaving after 1 year. So are the other 3 that will start alongside them. Is the next class as good as the 22 class? If so, great, but are those top talents coming to Lexington? If not, we're in trouble.

What about the next year and the year after? He has to do it every year, can't take any year off.

Exactly. If Cal starts landing guys like Sharpe and Lively, and can grow a roster of support players, then everyone is happy. And the fact that Cal made all these changes tells you things haven't been right.
It'll take some time to see if things truly change for the better. We'll see.

 

[kyjeff1]

I think he's attempting a hybrid, and I'm cool with that. Get Sharpe, get Lively, but pad the roster with some Gradys and Toppins as well. I see it as him mixing a bit of his 2006 and 2007 Memphis teams with a bit of his 2014 and 2015 UK teams.

This is what many of us have wanted the whole time anyway.

I just don't see any way, in the modern era, that Cal will win a title with that method. Both groups of players will never stay long enough to actually develop to compete with all the programs that are rolling out lineups that have juniors and seniors that have developed over a period of time.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Askew became a punchline because Cal pulled him out of HS early and shoved him in the starting lineup as the point guard… .at freaking Kentucky and kept him there for most of the season. Askew is a 4 year guy that had no business getting playing time over Zan Payne in 20/21. What a joke.

Juzang, KW, Baker, Matthews and Lee all transferred because they knew they weren't going to sniff the court the next season. They came to UK because UK is the one-and-done factory and most likely that’s what they were told during recruiting.

You have to change the culture before you expect kids to stay, you can't just waive a wand.

You can't tell me it can't be done, up until the transfer portal, we were one of 2 schools out of 350 that lost it's entire roster almost every year.

You’re acting like the transfer portal has been around for 50 years, this is year 1, you're throwing stats out like the transfer portal isn't bew. The game has changed, but that just means it's going to get worse for us. Cal is bringing in any 5* kid he can get, most, if not all, are low skilled kids with length and hops, those are the worst recruits you can take, because they have NBA tools, so they're only here for 1 year, but they need several years to develop.

So, Juzang knows he's sitting the bench so Cal can get Boston and Clarke drafted. Juzang, Baker, Matthews, KW and Lee made smart decisions, they knew Cal plays his draft picks 35+ mpg, who would stick around for that?

Programs like 'Nova, Baylor, UVA, Gonzaga (pretty much everyone else) are playing their Juniors and Seniors and look at the results, they're winning titles, we're struggling to reach 9 wins.

Well yes, someone wins a title every year. It makes sense that if 348 schools are doing it one way, they're going to have examples of it working. I also must have missed the Gonzaga title with 20 years of trying it your way despite a consistently easy path.

If there were a guaranteed formula, everyone would do it. There isn't.

Nova has more early flameouts over the last 15 years than just about anyone. They also watched Quinerly transfer to Alabama and be great this year.

Baylor was a team built with the same transfers you don't seem to want either.

I guess what I'm getting at is if your general disposition is to be unhappy, you're going to be.

You've been around here long enough to remember that the days people pine for now had us on here every day defending the method, program and coach then too. Even when we won in '12 they felt vindicated the next year.

So what do you actually want? Because if you're mad he's not getting the elite kids and you're mad when he plays the non elite kids like Askew, and you're mad when he plays them a varying amount and they transfer, and you're mad when we land transfers then what is it that'll make you happy? Specifically.

 

[GonzoCat90]

You’re smarter than this, I know it, I've read your comments for years on here. Why are you being obtuse about this? You know exactly what those phrases are referencing.

I know what they reference, obviously. My point is that they're being used incorrectly.

You might as well say it's raining cats and dogs if you're not going to be bound to the very common, very easily understood meaning of them.

It isn't "putting all your eggs in one basket" when you have a very viable back up plan.

It isn't "being punked" to be beaten for a recruit when they're bought and paid for. That's goofy fan talk that doesn't mean anything.

A hundred schools recruit these kids. Just because you read on rafters that we lead for all of them doesn't mean someone "got us" when they go elsewhere any more than it means we're punking those same hundred schools when we get kids they're after.

Or can the punking only go one way? Because if we're keeping some kind of mathematic property record of punking, I'd love to see that drawn out.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I think we'd all be happier if Cal started landing elite players again. I think Cal would be happier, too, given the success rate of his teams when they have frontend lottery picks leading his squads to deep runs in March and April.

Getting excited about Kellan Grady is fine and all when he has a DeMarcus Cousins to lob the ball to.

With NIL, I'm hoping Cal can earn his money and start figuring out ways to get those guys to Lexington for one year.

I agree, and it looks like that's what's happening. Whatever complaints I have appear to be in the process of being corrected. The '21 class was too late for that to really take hold, but '22 looks solid early.

I just think fans watch this like it's professional wrestling or something and it's silly. Hulk Hogan beats Randy Savage a hundred times, finally loses after he's hit with a steel chair, and Savage cuts a promo that he's the best ever and Hogan is a bum.

This entire thread is because a guy no one is even seriously recruiting got a future cast to a school no one takes seriously. That's the catalyst. Is that reasonable to you?

 

[kyjeff1]

Well yes, someone wins a title every year. It makes sense that if 348 schools are doing it one way, they're going to have examples of it working. I also must have missed the Gonzaga title with 20 years of trying it your way despite a consistently easy path.

If there were a guaranteed formula, everyone would do it. There isn't.

Nova has more early flameouts over the last 15 years than just about anyone. They also watched Quinerly transfer to Alabama and be great this year.

Baylor was a team built with the same transfers you don't seem to want either.

I guess what I'm getting at is if your general disposition is to be unhappy, you're going to be.

You've been around here long enough to remember that the days people pine for now had us on here every day defending the method, program and coach then too. Even when we won in '12 they felt vindicated the next year.

So what do you actually want? Because if you're mad he's not getting the elite kids and you're mad when he plays the non elite kids like Askew, and you're mad when he plays them a varying amount and they transfer, and you're mad when we land transfers then what is it that'll make you happy? Specifically.

Nah, you're being obtuse again.

I never said I didn’t want transfers, I'm all for veteran players, but in today’s game, you aren't beating strong veteran teams with freshmen and 1 year transfers, you just won't.

Now, to have a shot to beat some of those teams, you better get the best of the best recruits, you have no shot when Kevin Knox is your best recruit.

On the Gonzaga piece, no, they don't have a title, but to act like they weren't great in '17, '20 and '21 is crazy. Two title game appearances and last year they went unbeaten through a very tough non con slate all the way to the title game.

As far as Villanova flaming out early the last 15 years, yeah, you have a point, but the college game took a noticeable change sometime around 2015, Villanova has 2 titles since that change and has been an icon every year since 2015.

Meanwhile, UK has looked slightly better than average since 2015 and that’s because '17 and '19 both made the E8. '16 and '18 were seriously flawed rosters, simply because Cal missed on almost every target, but '2021 was something that should never happen at UK. Again, the roster was flawed, but damn, the man looked like he just picked up a "how to coach" book in the local rest area bathroom and gave it a shot.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I know what they reference, obviously. My point is that they're being used incorrectly.

You might as well say it's raining cats and dogs if you're not going to be bound to the very common, very easily understood meaning of them.

It isn't "putting all your eggs in one basket" when you have a very viable back up plan.

It isn't "being punked" to be beaten for a recruit when they're bought and paid for. That's goofy fan talk that doesn't mean anything.

A hundred schools recruit these kids. Just because you read on rafters that we lead for all of them doesn't mean someone "got us" when they go elsewhere any more than it means we're punking those same hundred schools when we get kids they're after.

Or can the punking only go one way? Because if we're keeping some kind of mathematic property record of punking, I'd love to see that drawn out.

Yet, what does it say about a coach who knows a Zion or a Cade "is bought and paid for", and yet recruits them into the 11th hour anyway? Would that constitute "getting punked", or is that cuckishly and naively allowing oneself to believe that the town whore is capable of becoming a virtuous and faithful housewife?

I like what Cal did in the Jalen Green/Josh Christopher recruitments, particularly regarding how he burned them publicly. I wish he'd do more of that and identify more guys who play the "Hats on the table" game. It would also go a long way to alleviating the collective anxieties of a UK fan base that often lacks the proper inside information that comes from being on the periphery of a recruitment.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Exactly. Nobody would be complaining if Cal was getting the best of the best every year, or at least close to that, but the bottom line is, he’s gotten snubbed by every bigtime recruit since the '14 class sans Murray and Fox.

One side of this board has recognized that we aren't getting the recruits and a change is long overdue. The other half is acting like everything is fine. It’s not.

Who is acting like it's fine? Cal overhauled the entire staff to fix the recruiting dip. He's tried to be out in front on the NIL thing. There's not a thing he or we can do now until it's had time to actually take effect.

By all indications, '22 looks good. Maybe it doesn't play out that way. Maybe all the kids go G League. Who knows? But it damn sure isn't at all impacted by the Emoni Bates circus.

Besides, you're in this very thread already complaining about the '22 guys being OaD. Just like people complained all the time about it from '10-15.

So again, what do you actually want? Because if it's to be guaranteed a national title contending roster four years in advance with gigantic margin for error and injury built in, you're following the wrong sport in the wrong millennia man.

 

[kyjeff1]

I know what they reference, obviously. My point is that they're being used incorrectly.

You might as well say it's raining cats and dogs if you're not going to be bound to the very common, very easily understood meaning of them.

It isn't "putting all your eggs in one basket" when you have a very viable back up plan.

It isn't "being punked" to be beaten for a recruit when they're bought and paid for. That's goofy fan talk that doesn't mean anything.

A hundred schools recruit these kids. Just because you read on rafters that we lead for all of them doesn't mean someone "got us" when they go elsewhere any more than it means we're punking those same hundred schools when we get kids they're after.

Or can the punking only go one way? Because if we're keeping some kind of mathematic property record of punking, I'd love to see that drawn out.

Well, at least you made me laugh today.

Simply put, Cal is all in on one-and-done, has been since he got here. His backup plan, sans the 21/22 roster, has been to find the next available 5* to plug a gaping hole left by the latest stud to string him along, then choose someone else. If it’s something else, please enlighten me, because I haven't seen it.

And yes, since 2014, Cal has gotten punked on the recruiting trail. Coach K has routinely kicked his ass and he's the only other guy that's all in on one-and-dones. Cal is also getting beat by Penny, whoever the coach is at Washington (weird), LSU, Michigan and even Oklahoma State. When you're the one and done guy, you shouldn't be losing ALL these recruiting battles.

Seems like he wins 1 out of every 10 recruiting battle right now. If that's the case (it is), should he really be sticking to this NBA factory method? I wouldn't.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Nah, you're being obtuse again.

I never said I didn’t want transfers, I'm all for veteran players, but in today’s game, you aren't beating strong veteran teams with freshmen and 1 year transfers, you just won't.

Now, to have a shot to beat some of those teams, you better get the best of the best recruits, you have no shot when Kevin Knox is your best recruit.

On the Gonzaga piece, no, they don't have a title, but to act like they weren't great in '17, '20 and '21 is crazy. Two title game appearances and last year they went unbeaten through a very tough non con slate all the way to the title game.

As far as Villanova flaming out early the last 15 years, yeah, you have a point, but the college game took a noticeable change sometime around 2015, Villanova has 2 titles since that change and has been an icon every year since 2015.

Meanwhile, UK has looked slightly better than average since 2015 and that’s because '17 and '19 both made the E8. '16 and '18 were seriously flawed rosters, simply because Cal missed on almost every target, but '2021 was something that should never happen at UK. Again, the roster was flawed, but damn, the man looked like he just picked up a "how to coach" book in the local rest area bathroom and gave it a shot.

'21 had never happened before at more schools than just Kentucky and I'm willing to bet it never happens again for most of them. Yes it was unacceptable, and there have been a number of changes that show Cal agrees with us there.

But it's not being obtuse to point out that Nova isn't a consistent title contender like you want and Gonzaga has never even won one. You can't give them credit for good seasons that fall short and then dismiss teams like '17 and '19 for us as flawed and falling short, or that Baylor just won a title with a squad of transfers.

We all want "whatever works," but it's silly to just rant and flail after the latest shiny thing when it has no more success than the method you're angry about.

Again, there's just not a foolproof method. It can look that way if you're comparing one program to the entire field, but if you need 15 schools to keep moving around your argument to prove your point, it isn't as solid as you want it to be.

 

[kyjeff1]

Who is acting like it's fine? Cal overhauled the entire staff to fix the recruiting dip. He's tried to be out in front on the NIL thing. There's not a thing he or we can do now until it's had time to actually take effect.

By all indications, '22 looks good. Maybe it doesn't play out that way. Maybe all the kids go G League. Who knows? But it damn sure isn't at all impacted by the Emoni Bates circus.

Besides, you're in this very thread already complaining about the '22 guys being OaD. Just like people complained all the time about it from '10-15.

So again, what do you actually want? Because if it's to be guaranteed a national title contending roster four years in advance with gigantic margin for error and injury built in, you're following the wrong sport in the wrong millennia man.

What are you going to say when these kids Cal is recruiting in the 22 class go to Duke, Memphis or Oklahoma State unexpectedly?

When are you guys going to learn? It’s always "just wait until next year, Cal is working on a monster class… ". We do this every year. Lucy just keeps pulling the football JUST before Charlie goes to kick it.

Heck, there are already rumors about Lively going to Duke. Is John Scheyer going to pick up where K left off? Looks like it.

It seems to me that Cal not playing in that PK tournament is still hurting us and if that's the case, Cal better fix that or stop trying to play the game. Nike is much bigger than Cal and slightly bigger than his ego.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Well, st least you made me laugh today.

Simply put, Cal is all in on one-and-done, has been since he got here. His backup plan, sans the 21/22 roster, has been to find the next available 5* to plug a gaping hole left by the latest stud to string him along, then choose someone else. If it’s something else, please enlighten me, because I haven't seen it.

And yes, since 2014, Cal has gotten punked on the recruiting trail. Coach K has routinely kicked his ass and he's the only other guy that's all in on one-and-dones. Cal is also getting beat by Penny, whoever the coach is at Washington (weird), LSU, Michigan and even Oklahoma State. When you're the one and done guy, you shouldn't be losing ALL these recruiting battles.

Seems like he wins 1 out of every 10 recruiting battle right now. If that's the case (it is), should he really be sticking to this NBA factory method? I wouldn't.

Is he getting his ass kicked or are the odds just way smaller that 5-6 kids would attend one school rather than the dozen who are after them?

Was Cal kicking K's ass when he landed a bunch of guys Duke was hard after? That same Duke program was terrible last year. If we had shut down like they did to save face, our season would have looked a lot better. Their best recruit quit early on.

That same Duke program also just had former top 10 recruit Matthew Hurt leave to go undrafted. Just like Tre Duval and others I'm probably forgetting.

If Duke had their way, BJ Boston would have been playing for them last year.

But now because of some message board rumors John effing Scheyer is "punking" Cal? And I'm supposed to not call that idiotic? Saying anyone who loses a recruit is getting punked leaves you with no good coaches in about a week.

But by all means, chase the short term benefits of Mike Boynton or Penny Hardaway. They're punking us after all. Just out there killing it.

 

[kyjeff1]

'21 had never happened before at more schools than just Kentucky and I'm willing to bet it never happens again for most of them. Yes it was unacceptable, and there have been a number of changes that show Cal agrees with us there.

But it's not being obtuse to point out that Nova isn't a consistent title contender like you want and Gonzaga has never even won one. You can't give them credit for good seasons that fall short and then dismiss teams like '17 and '19 for us as flawed and falling short, or that Baylor just won a title with a squad of transfers.

We all want "whatever works," but it's silly to just rant and flail after the latest shiny thing when it has no more success than the method you're angry about.

Again, there's just not a foolproof method. It can look that way if you're comparing one program to the entire field, but if you need 15 schools to keep moving around your argument to prove your point, it isn't as solid as you want it to be.

Wait, you can't tell the difference between Gonzaga's '17 and '21 seasons and our '17 and '19 seasons? Really? We topped out in the E8, they were in the title game both years. Nobody is complaining about our '11 and '14 teams.

Nope, Villanova isn’t a title threat every year, but their method works in the modern era. They have two titles and you're here bragging about 2 elite 8 appearances that we have in the same time period.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Yet, what does it say about a coach who knows a Zion or a Cade "is bought and paid for", and yet recruits them into the 11th hour anyway? Would that constitute "getting punked", or is that cuckishly and naively allowing oneself to believe that the town whore is capable of becoming a virtuous and faithful housewife?

I like what Cal did in the Jalen Green/Josh Christopher recruitments, particularly regarding how he burned them publicly. I wish he'd do more of that and identify more guys who play the "Hats on the table" game. It would also go a long way to alleviating the collective anxieties of a UK fan base that often lacks the proper inside information that comes from being on the periphery of a recruitment.

Then you're not built to follow recruiting. If you need a 60 year old millionaire to publicly trash a teenager he's built a relationship with so that *you* feel better, you're going to just have to stay upset.

Cal keeps recruiting kids like Cade because things happen. Boyton was on the hot seat, remember? He also played for the same AAU team that was run by Randle's guy. You keep those relationships in tact so that the door is open on the next kid from there. Burning bridges to please message board posters who can't be satisfied is moronic.

So, for example, when Duren has a change of heart and isn't heading to the G League, it doesn't hurt to recruit him hard. It puts you front and center for Lively all summer too, and gives you the chance to make Kentucky's NIL pitch to the top player in the nation.

The only people who see that as a bad thing are fans who think they're keeping recruiting win tallies online because they believe every rumor.

 

[kyjeff1]

Is he getting his ass kicked or are the odds just way smaller that 5-6 kids would attend one school rather than the dozen who are after them?

Was Cal kicking K's ass when he landed a bunch of guys Duke was hard after? That same Duke program was terrible last year. If we had shut down like they did to save face, our season would have looked a lot better. Their best recruit quit early on.

That same Duke program also just had former top 10 recruit Matthew Hurt leave to go undrafted. Just like Tre Duval and others I'm probably forgetting.

If Duke had their way, BJ Boston would have been playing for them last year.

But now because of some message board rumors John effing Scheyer is "punking" Cal? And I'm supposed to not call that idiotic? Saying anyone who loses a recruit is getting punked leaves you with no good coaches in about a week.

But by all means, chase the short term benefits of Mike Boynton or Penny Hardaway. They're punking us after all. Just out there killing it.

When you're all in on one and done, you better get the best of the best, but that's not happening and hasn't since our 2014 class. That’s what's being said here, but, for some reason, you're twisting what's being said.

Nobody said the one-and-done method was easy and I'm not the one that is choosing to do it, Cal is making that choice and whether you want to admit it or not, since 2014, he has gotten his ass kicked when it comes to landing his primary recruiting targets. True or false?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Wait, you can't tell the difference between Gonzaga's '17 and '21 seasons and our '17 and '19 seasons? Really? We topped out in the E8, they were in the title game both years. Nobody is complaining about our '11 and '14 teams.

Nope, Villanova isn’t a title threat every year, but their method works in the modern era. They have two titles and you're here bragging about 2 elite 8 appearances that we have in the same time period.

I'm not bragging about anything. I'm also not holding that up as the superior way to build a program when it isn't giving them the thing you're complaining that you want.

People absolutely complained about '11 and '14. That we "lost to inferior teams" or "would have won if we had more veterans."

It's something every year for every team but one. If we don't land Duren it'll be because we lacked star power. If we do it'll be because the transfers had never played together or because Askew is at Texas looking improved or a billion other things.

That type of reactionary nonsense is how you end up like Indiana. You have to have an identity. You have to have a process. You tweak it and improve it and scrap things that don't work, but just chasing the Penny and Boytons of the world is why they're Memphis and Oklahoma State.

Notice how Duke stayed in house and is staying the course despite last year being awful? How can they be punking us by not changing but we need to change because of last year? There's no consistency in the logic.

 

[GonzoCat90]

When you're all in on one and done, you better get the best of the best, but that's not happening and hasn't since our 2014 class. That’s what's being said here, but, for some reason, you're twisting what's being said.

Nobody said the one-and-done method was easy and I'm not the one that is choosing to do it, Cal is making that choice and whether you want to admit it or not, since 2014, he has gotten his ass kicked when it comes to landing his primary recruiting targets. True or false?

Ass kicked? No. He stopped getting every single one because he stopped being the only coach willing to take them, and a host of other factors.

Was it Dave Rice that kicked his ass when he landed Bennett and Zimmerman at UNLV? Is that what happened? Should we go hire him since he owns Cal? What about Sean Miller taking Ayton and Simmons and Alkins and Trier from us? Want him? We led for those guys then Miller punked us.

That's the silliness in that ADHD program comparison nonsense. It's Baylor this year. It's Penny now. It was Nate Oats for a minute. It was Holtzman a couple years ago. You can't run a program that way.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Then you're not built to follow recruiting. If you need a 60 year old millionaire to publicly trash a teenager he's built a relationship with so that *you* feel better, you're going to just have to stay upset.

Cal keeps recruiting kids like Cade because things happen. Boyton was on the hot seat, remember? He also played for the same AAU team that was run by Randle's guy. You keep those relationships in tact so that the door is open on the next kid from there. Burning bridges to please message board posters who can't be satisfied is moronic.

So, for example, when Duren has a change of heart and isn't heading to the G League, it doesn't hurt to recruit him hard. It puts you front and center for Lively all summer too, and gives you the chance to make Kentucky's NIL pitch to the top player in the nation.

The only people who see that as a bad thing are fans who think they're keeping recruiting win tallies online because they believe every rumor.

At what point is your "bought and paid for" argument actually objectively tenable when evaluating a recruitment? You didn't see Zion's tampering before the fact? Do you think Cal did? What about Cade, etc.?

The main element of your initial argument about those type of recruits is that we can't really hold our coaching staff accountable when they pick other schools because they were "bought and paid for." Maybe you should specify which players you're actually accusing of being bought and paid for.

Are we to believe that the very real coaching staff that recruited these very real players doesn't catch wind of their "bought and paid for" realities until after the fact, or is that just your fast and loose premise when calculating reasons why Cal's staff has failed to lose a kid to an inferior school?

Additionally, Cal burned Green and Christopher publicly and without mentioning their names. He also burned numerous Duke recruits when he mocked the fact that they were naïve to believe the "set for life" pitch. Remember? Why was that permissible then but not what I'm suggesting now? He's already done it. I just want him to do it more often. Obviously there's ways to do this without mentioning names; and yes, I am suggesting that our fan base needs this. Just look at how we sponge up the smallest info and run with it. It would be a great way to counter the false social media guru narratives you seem so adamant to expose.

 

[GonzoCat90]

At what point is your "bought and paid for" argument actually objectively tenable when evaluating a recruitment? You didn't see Zion's tampering before the fact? Do you think Cal did? What about Cade, etc.?

The main element of your initial argument about those type of recruits is that we can't really hold our coaching staff accountable when they pick other schools because they were "bought and paid for." Maybe you should specify which players you're actually accusing of being bought and paid for.

Are to believe that the very real coaching staff that recruited these very real players doesn't catch wind of their "bought and paid for" realities until after the fact, or is that just your fast and loose premise when calculating reasons why Cal's staff has failed to lose a kid to an inferior school?

Additionally, Cal burned Green and Christopher publicly. He also burned numerous Duke recruits when he mocked the fact that they were naïve to believe the "set for life" pitch. Remember? Why was that permissible then but not what I'm suggesting now? He's already done it. I just want him to do it more often. Obviously there's ways to do this without mentioning names; and yes, I am suggesting that our fan base needs this. Just look at how we sponge up the smallest info. It would be a great way to counter the false social media guru narratives you seem so adamant to expose.

If Cal ever starts trying to publicly counter fake social media gurus, I'll help him pack.

My "bought and paid for" argument is tenable when there are numerous examples of it being proven to happen. Guys like Miller are on tape arranging payments. Wiseman was ruled ineligible and left school over it. Zion is battling a court case. Cade's brother was literally on the payroll for a year.

To suggest that stuff like that is being "punked" is childish fan talk. It ignores reality. And any counter to it creates an untenable environment where you are either hiring/firing family members, rogue coaches, handlers, etc that makes you worse off than you'd have been simply missing out on the player.

Honestly, listen to yourself man. You want Cal to publicly make some snarky allusion to Jalen Duren? So that you'll feel better?

What about when that upsets his buddy Lively or one of the top AAU programs in America? At what point have you burned all your bridges in a game vitally connected to relationships?

The same people who blame our fall on Cal's absence from Phil Knight's tournament want to do something fifty times more insulting to every kid we recruit that decides he's going elsewhere?

Because that's how it works. Very few times is a staff surprised. When Shaedon Sharpe commits to Kentucky, it wont be news to Bill Self. He didn't think he had him in the bag. He's recruiting him anyway or else there'd be very little recruiting.

 

[kyjeff1]

I'm not bragging about anything. I'm also not holding that up as the superior way to build a program when it isn't giving them the thing you're complaining that you want.

People absolutely complained about '11 and '14. That we "lost to inferior teams" or "would have won if we had more veterans."

It's something every year for every team but one. If we don't land Duren it'll be because we lacked star power. If we do it'll be because the transfers had never played together or because Askew is at Texas looking improved or a billion other things.

That type of reactionary nonsense is how you end up like Indiana. You have to have an identity. You have to have a process. You tweak it and improve it and scrap things that don't work, but just chasing the Penny and Boytons of the world is why they're Memphis and Oklahoma State.

Notice how Duke stayed in house and is staying the course despite last year being awful? How can they be punking us by not changing but we need to change because of last year? There's no consistency in the logic.

But you are bragging, you're acting like our elite 8 seasons are somehow just as good as Gonzaga's title game losses.

Look, if you can’t see that Cal isn't getting the job done on the recruiting trail since 2014, then that’s a you problem. The facts are simple, he is sticking with the one and done method, he craves draft picks and he has missed out on 99% of his top targets since his 2014 class.

Sorry, but this is UK basketball, it is the greatest program in the sport, but that is based on the entire body of work since the 1950's. Since that 2015 loss to Wisconsin, we have not been the program Cal told us we were going to be. He has lost his touch in recruiting, he's using an outdated offense and he is doing the one thing he used to bag on his players about "WHAT'S THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY?" Cal, since 2015, has been doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results.

Somehow draft picks have taken priority over UK's success and I refuse to get on board with that.

Cal was supposed to he the Nick Saban of college basketball, well, he’s not even close to that. He's paid the same, but he's not bringing the results and here's the kicker, Saban's job is harder. It's harder to win games in college football and it's much harder to win titles in college football. I assume you’re going to disagree with me, I can't wait.

As far as a few UK fans complaining about the 2011 and 2014 losees, well, those complaints were from a very small section of this massive fanbase, but if Cal keeps up the current methods (draft picks over UK's success), we won't have to worry about hearing those comments, because our fanbase will start to dwindle. All that will be left will be your "Rah Rah, Cal is the greatest ever" group.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

If Cal ever starts trying to publicly counter fake social media gurus, I'll help him pack.

My "bought and paid for" argument is tenable when there are numerous examples of it being proven to happen. Guys like Miller are on tape arranging payments. Wiseman was ruled ineligible and left school over it. Zion is battling a court case. Cade's brother was literally on the payroll for a year.

To suggest that stuff like that is being "punked" is childish fan talk. It ignores reality. And any counter to it creates an untenable environment where you are either hiring/firing family members, rogue coaches, handlers, etc that makes you worse off than you'd have been simply missing out on the player.

Honestly, listen to yourself man. You want Cal to publicly make some snarky allusion to Jalen Duren? So that you'll feel better?

What about when that upsets his buddy Lively or one of the top AAU programs in America? At what point have you burned all your bridges in a game vitally connected to relationships?

The same people who blame our fall on Cal's absence from Phil Knight's tournament want to do something fifty times more insulting to every kid we recruit that decides he's going elsewhere?

Because that's how it works. Very few times is a staff surprised. When Shaedon Sharpe commits to Kentucky, it wont be news to Bill Self. He didn't think he had him in the bag. He's recruiting him anyway or else there'd be very little recruiting.

"Honestly, listen to yourself man. You want Cal to publicly make some snarky allusion to Jalen Duren? So that you'll feel better?"

Not at all. If he continues to play the "we're above that" pay for play, I want him to recruit kids who he has an actual shot at landing, not recruiting James Wiseman or Zion into the 11th hour when they're "bought and paid for", as you suggest. I'm not suggesting Duren is on the take. Are you, or are you going to wait until he picks Memphis or Miami before you place his head on the "bought and paid for" guillotine? The accusation only sticks if they don't pick Cal, right?

With NIL, I'd actually like to see him recruit kids with an open checkbook via permissible Nike endorsements (or endorsements from other places). I'd like for him to figure out a way to spend more than the Ignite Team is willing to spend or more than other pro teams can offer kids right out of high school. I'd like him to start getting elite OAD again, and use his former methods of innovation to make it happen, including utilizing "goodwill ambassadors" like William Wesley. Remember those days?

With NIL, we're in the Wild West now. Cal's always flourished in such moments. I want him to get ahead of this thing before the rest of the field catches up. I want him to combine what Memphis is doing from a recruiting standpoint with what Kentucky already is. The combination would likely lead to dynastic outcomes.

 

[kyjeff1]

Ass kicked? No. He stopped getting every single one because he stopped being the only coach willing to take them, and a host of other factors.

Was it Dave Rice that kicked his ass when he landed Bennett and Zimmerman at UNLV? Is that what happened? Should we go hire him since he owns Cal? What about Sean Miller taking Ayton and Simmons and Alkins and Trier from us? Want him? We led for those guys then Miller punked us.

That's the silliness in that ADHD program comparison nonsense. It's Baylor this year. It's Penny now. It was Nate Oats for a minute. It was Holtzman a couple years ago. You can't run a program that way.

Sooo are you saying you disagree that you better get the best players every year if you're going to roll with the one-and-done system?

Like I said from the beginning of this conversation, you can't whiff on a Ben Simmons and bring in a Wenyen Gabriel or Kevin Knox and call it good.

That's what's been happening since 2014.

Now, if what you say is true (everyone is recruiting these top recruits), then why the hell is Cal still staying with his current method? Right now, he has to replace an entite roster almost every year, name me another school that does that? Heck, even duke doesn’t have to replace EVERYONE.

If all these big fish recruits are spreading out and we can't even get 1 of them, then what the hell are we doing? We're supposed to have better facilities, huge fanbase, the biggest NIL benefits and better exposure, if all that shit doesn’t matter to these kids and we are STILL losing recruits to Memphis and Oklahoma State, then how stupid is it to continue what Cal is doing?

Here's the difference, those other schools have veteran players that have come up through their program, UK doesn't, we continue to lose most of our team every year. I mean, how long does Cal stay with this bullshit?

 

[ace on the river]

You could put the Milwaukee Bucks in a Memphis uniform and they wouldn't win as long as Penny is the head coach

 

[GonzoCat90]

But you are bragging, you're acting like our elite 8 seasons are somehow just as good as Gonzaga's title game losses.

Look, if you can’t see that Cal isn't getting the job done on the recruiting trail since 2014, then that’s a you problem. The facts are simple, he is sticking with the one and done method, he craves draft picks and he has missed out on 99% of his top targets since his 2014 class.

Sorry, but this is UK basketball, it is the greatest program in the sport, but that is based on the entire body of work since the 1950's. Since that 2015 loss to Wisconsin, we have not been the program Cal told us we were going to be. He has lost his touch in recruiting, he's using an outdated offense and he is doing the one thing he used to bag on his players about "WHAT'S THE DEFINITION OF INSANITY?" Cal, since 2015, has been doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results.

Somehow draft picks have taken priority over UK's success and I refuse to get on board with that.

Cal was supposed to he the Nick Saban of college basketball, well, he’s not even close to that. He's paid the same, but he's not bringing the results and here's the kicker, Saban's job is harder. It's harder to win games in college football and it's much harder to win titles in college football. I assume you’re going to disagree with me, I can't wait.

As far as a few UK fans complaining about the 2011 and 2014 losees, well, those complaints were from a very small section of this massive fanbase, but if Cal keeps up the current methods (draft picks over UK's success), we won't have to worry about hearing those comments, because our fanbase will start to dwindle. All that will be left will be your "Rah Rah, Cal is the greatest ever" group.

That's a whole bunch of your feelings and a whole little of anything else.

But it's absolutely not harder to win in college football when you're at one of the ten places that actually has a chance to do so. There are no Cinderellas in football.

The rest of that is your own hurt feelings. I can't do anything about those. And that's fine, but it's a waste of time to discuss it if pointing out the flaws in your argument goes back to you being disappointed and having hurt feelings.

Appreciate the conversation, as always.

 

[GonzoCat90]

"Honestly, listen to yourself man. You want Cal to publicly make some snarky allusion to Jalen Duren? So that you'll feel better?"

Not at all. If he continues to play the "we're above that" pay for play, I want him to recruit kids who he has an actual shot at landing, not recruiting James Wiseman or Zion into the 11th hour when they're "bought and paid for", as you suggest. I'm not suggesting Duren is on the take. Are you, or are you going to wait until he picks Memphis or Miami before you place his head on the "bought and paid for" guillotine? The accusation only sticks if they don't pick Cal, right?

With NIL, I'd actually like to see him recruit kids with an open checkbook via permissible Nike endorsements (or endorsements from other places). I'd like for him to figure out a way to spend more than the Ignite Team is willing to spend or more than other pro teams can offer kids right out of high school. I'd like him to start getting elite OAD again, and use his former methods of innovation to make it happen, including utilizing "goodwill ambassadors" like William Wesley. Remember those days?

With NIL, we're in the Wild West now. Cal's always flourished in such moments. I want him to get ahead of this thing before the rest of the field catches up. I want him to combine what Memphis is doing from a recruiting standpoint with what Kentucky already is. The combination would likely lead to dynastic outcomes.

I don't disagree with that at all. I think we've both been in favor of that since way before NIL too.

I'm not saying every kid is bought and paid for either. Lots of them are. Hell, lots of them are and end up at Kentucky. We're still consistently out recruiting everyone but Duke.

What I am saying is that a large portion of the "difference maker" kids have other factors around them. A brother or coach to hire. Moving expenses a coach paid for. A host family who are alumni of somewhere. That's the game you play in recruiting.

So it's stupid to act like any individual situation is indicative of someone's "punking" of another coach. That same guy will then beat you for a kid for a similarly uncontrolled reason.

Duke can't have our number on Tre Duval when they're the only one who'd take his academics but not have it on BJ Boston when they went after him with the full court press and were the long-established leader.

Mike Boyton can't "punk" Cal on Cade and then somehow let Cal take a kid like Collins that he wanted.

There's not a single bit of consistency under even the smallest bit of scrutiny. There's too much overlap of the same programs recruiting the same guys. It's just fans who want to sound like they're part of it.

 

[kyjeff1]

If what you say is true (all these other schools are buying these players), then why is Cal still slamming his head into that block wall? Why is he still trying to be honest Abe when everyone else is cheating?

Why have I not heard Mark Few, Jay Wright or Roy Williams complain about someone cheating to steal a top 5 recruit away from them?

Oh, I know why, it's because they're choosing to bring in college basketball players and develop them over a couple of years, instead of trying to use the microwave method.

But if everyone else is buying players out from under you, at what point do you do something different? What's the definition of insanity?

If Cal ever starts trying to publicly counter fake social media gurus, I'll help him pack.

My "bought and paid for" argument is tenable when there are numerous examples of it being proven to happen. Guys like Miller are on tape arranging payments. Wiseman was ruled ineligible and left school over it. Zion is battling a court case. Cade's brother was literally on the payroll for a year.

To suggest that stuff like that is being "punked" is childish fan talk. It ignores reality. And any counter to it creates an untenable environment where you are either hiring/firing family members, rogue coaches, handlers, etc that makes you worse off than you'd have been simply missing out on the player.

Honestly, listen to yourself man. You want Cal to publicly make some snarky allusion to Jalen Duren? So that you'll feel better?

What about when that upsets his buddy Lively or one of the top AAU programs in America? At what point have you burned all your bridges in a game vitally connected to relationships?

The same people who blame our fall on Cal's absence from Phil Knight's tournament want to do something fifty times more insulting to every kid we recruit that decides he's going elsewhere?

Because that's how it works. Very few times is a staff surprised. When Shaedon Sharpe commits to Kentucky, it wont be news to Bill Self. He didn't think he had him in the bag. He's recruiting him anyway or else there'd be very little recruiting.

 

[kyjeff1]

That's a whole bunch of your feelings and a whole little of anything else.

But it's absolutely not harder to win in college football when you're at one of the ten places that actually has a chance to do so. There are no Cinderellas in football.

The rest of that is your own hurt feelings. I can't do anything about those. And that's fine, but it's a waste of time to discuss it if pointing out the flaws in your argument goes back to you being disappointed and having hurt feelings.

Appreciate the conversation, as always.

Cinderella's? What the hell… .first of all, what Cinderella derailed one of our seasons? What cinderella won a title in basketball?

In college football, your regular season is your NCAAT, so if Alabama goes and loses at Ole Miss, they're probably out. Meanwhile, UK can lose at home to Evansville and still grab a 1 seed.

Also, didn't TCU make the CFB playoff a few years ago? I believe they did.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "feelings" comment, tell me what is false about anything I have said and we'll discuss it.

 

[SmedMoley]

Gonzo in here spinning like a wheel. Strawman here, strawman there. And clearly, "punked" is a trigger word for Gonzo.

😅😅😅

 

[Jperry1987]

Nah, nah, nah, it ain't gonna work like that. The uproar here isn't on the fans.

Yes, we are happy we have veteran talent on this years team, but we're still one piece short and Cal knows it.

But here's the thing, Cal and his staff are recruiting Duren hard and we see it and we know that Cal has missed out on almost every blue chip kid he has targeted since the 2014 class. If he misses out again, to freaking Memphis, after going hard at him, well, that's an issue don't you think?

Don’t put it on us, that’s bullshit.

Not as big of an issue as its being made. Hell the team has practically been set for 2 months or so now. Folks were fine with the roster pre-Duren reclass. Now were 1 piece away for being great? Duren is not make or break for this team, imo.

It is on us as fans.
WERE THE ONES BITCHING before the kid has even announced his decision.
We whine when we dont have veterans, we do now, still whining. We whine when we have a team of mostly freshmen and they struggle. "We want veterans and shooters/ makers!" We do now and guess what.....were still whining. We whine that Cal loves playing 2 bigs and clog the lane or not enough floor spacing....then we whine that Cal didnt go all in for Kofi, when we all know that had he committed to UK we as fans would be once again bitching about Cal playing he and Oscar at the same time or bitching about guards blowing past him going for 30 a game because Cal switches everything on D and we have 2 lead footed centers in the game at once.
Its absolutely on us as fans. As I said above we are the ones having a meltdown and bitching and whining before the kid has even committed anywhere.

 

[gharding07]

Toppin, Brooks, and Hopkins better step up and in a big way. These guys need to be a problem for other teams. Rebound and be a threat on offense.

Right now, UK has Oscar, Ware, and Collins as bigs on the block. Only Oscar is a proven. Collins has huge upside but there will be time needed imo. Ware needs to become a solid contributor now. If Oscar has foul trouble or gets injured...oh my.

Backcourt seems to be the driving force on this team as of today. TyTy, Wheeler, Grady, Mintz need to be lights out. Hopefully CJ is healthy.

If Ware plays were screwed anyway..so I hope that doesn't happen

 

[cats#1again]

Obviously he didn't.
He's not twice the player. He will be irrelevant this season with his coaches gone. If he were so great why did he come back? He's a heavy footed 7 ft lane clogger.
I'm glad you disagree with my post. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Remember what I told you, post the opposite of what you think, that advice gers more and more acvurate with every post you.make.

Kofi Cockburn is twice the player Tshebwie is and don't try to pretend Cal didn’t want him.

 

[kyjeff1]

Obviously he didn't.
He's not twice the player. He will be irrelevant this season with his coaches gone. If he were so great why did he come back? He's a heavy footed 7 ft lane clogger.
I'm glad you disagree with my post. I wouldn't have it any other way.

He came back because the NBA doesn’t want that type of player these days.

 

[KyFanInTenn]

Right, but this is the problem with this type of roster management. If you don't hit a home run at all 5 positions, you have a hole or two that will rear its ugly head at the wrong time and we have seen that very thing time and time again.

If you are going to play with fire like Cal does every year, you better have some really good contingency plans in place, especially when dealing with immature 18 year olds that string you along.

Truth is, since the 2015 season, Cal has missed on almost all of his primary targets and his contingency plan has been to try to develop these 2nd tier 5* kids in one season, well, it's not working and the real disturbing part is who he's losing these recruits to. Washington, UGA, Missouri, LSU etc… , we can cry and say those schools are cheating, but that's not fixing the problem.

As far as giving Cal credit for adjusting THIS season, well, I award him a golf clap. What choice did he have? The timing of the transfer portal is what should get the real applause, that’s what saved Cal's bacon.

He needs to land Duren, there is no damn reason Memphis should come in and steal another recruit from us, they offer very little to a recruit, especially with Penny Hardaway coaching. If he misses on Duren, I'll feel like we still have a big problem. I'm not sure why all these bigtime recruits are going elsewhere, but it’s not good.

I feel like your contradicting yourself a bit here.

"He needs to land Duren". According to your 20+ posts on these threads I heard you lament that one and done model does not work in college basketball and that only veteran teams have chances to win the title. Is that not a team Cal has currently constructed?

You also said in post #69: "You have to change the culture before you expect kids to stay, you can't just waive a wand"

You know what would happen if Duren were to choose UK? Brooks, Toppin, and Collins all would have been over-recruited. That's again no change in culture like you said he needed to do.

So you've said you need Cal to land Duren, but you also want the culture to change. I'm just not sure you can have it both ways - you have to choose one. Land Duren and push Brooks/Toppin/Collins to the wayside or Duren doesn't come and you rely on proven Juniors and talented freshman to man your frontcourt.

In my eyes, I'm just not sure you can get mad at Cal for losing Duren when he's not that a big need.

 

[KYFOSSIL]

If what you say is true (all these other schools are buying these players), then why is Cal still slamming his head into that block wall? Why is he still trying to be honest Abe when everyone else is cheating?

Why have I not heard Mark Few, Jay Wright or Roy Williams complain about someone cheating to steal a top 5 recruit away from them?

Oh, I know why, it's because they're choosing to bring in college basketball players and develop them over a couple of years, instead of trying to use the microwave method.

But if everyone else is buying players out from under you, at what point do you do something different? What's the definition of insanity?

Why would Roy Williams ever complain about anyone else cheating😂

 

[kyjeff1]

I feel like your contradicting yourself a bit here.

"He needs to land Duren". According to your 20+ posts on these threads I heard you lament that one and done model does not work in college basketball and that only veteran teams have chances to win the title. Is that not a team Cal has currently constructed?

You also said in post #69: "You have to change the culture before you expect kids to stay, you can't just waive a wand"

You know what would happen if Duren were to choose UK? Brooks, Toppin, and Collins all would have been over-recruited. That's again no change in culture like you said he needed to do.

So you've said you need Cal to land Duren, but you also want the culture to change. I'm just not sure you can have it both ways - you have to choose one. Land Duren and push Brooks/Toppin/Collins to the wayside or Duren doesn't come and you rely on proven Juniors and talented freshman to man your frontcourt.

In my eyes, I'm just not sure you can get mad at Cal for losing Duren when he's not that a big need.

You’re misunderstanding me. I WANT UK to have veteran rosters, But Cal is choosing to stay with the one-and-done. If you are going to be the one-and-done guy, you better land the Jalen Duren's or Cade Cunningham's of each class. It can't be Kevin Knix.

So no, I most certainly have not contradicted myself, I have literally been saying the same exact things for several years now.

Also, before you go on and say "but we have a veteran team this year", save it, Jalen Duren was on the table and he would put UK in the conversation for a title. This is still a new team even though it's full of veteran players.

If Cal can't take Duren from Penny, that's kinda disturbing to me. UK offers soooo much more.

 

[kyjeff1]

Why would Roy Williams ever complain about anyone else cheating😂

That’s a good point.

 

[KyFanInTenn]

You’re misunderstanding me. I WANT UK to have veteran rosters, But Cal is choosing to stay with the one-and-done. If you are going to be the one-and-done guy, you better land the Jalen Duren's or Cade Cunningham's of each class. It can't be Kevin Knix.

So no, I most certainly have not contradicted myself, I have literally been saying the same exact things for several years now.

Also, before you go on and say "but we have a veteran team this year", save it, Jalen Duren was on the table and he would put UK in the conversation for a title. This is still a new team even though it's full of veteran players.

If Cal can't take Duren from Penny, that's kinda disturbing to me. UK offers soooo much more.

Agree on the point of doing one-and-done roster you must get the elite of the elite. Don't think this roster solely depends on the freshman though, and that's the difference in this year. New team with new pieces, but Cal has shown he's one of the best at meshing together talent. This year he actually has players who have experience at this level though.

Disagree on the Duren would put UK in conversation for title. I think they're already there. Most preseason polls have Kentucky already in the top 10 and some I've seen rank them as high as 3. Any top 10 team has a chance at a title.

UK does offer more, but not as much as playing time. And that's what I believe his decision came down to if he ends up picking Memphis (along with Penny hiring Larry Brown/Rasheed).

I'm more than happy with where the roster is at, and see Duren as more of a want than an actual need.

 

[kyjeff1]

Agree on the point of doing one-and-done roster you must get the elite of the elite. Don't think this roster solely depends on the freshman though, and that's the difference in this year. New team with new pieces, but Cal has shown he's one of the best at meshing together talent. This year he actually has players who have experience at this level though.

Disagree on the Duren would put UK in conversation for title. I think they're already there. Most preseason polls have Kentucky already in the top 10 and some I've seen rank them as high as 3. Any top 10 team has a chance at a title.

UK does offer more, but not as much as playing time. And that's what I believe his decision came down to if he ends up picking Memphis (along with Penny hiring Larry Brown/Rasheed).

I'm more than happy with where the roster is at, and see Duren as more of a want than an actual need.

Good post, but as good as Duren is, he would get big playing time here and the other benefits crush anything Memphis can offer.

Honestly, I don't think this current roster is Final 4 good. There are a lot of "if this happens, we could… "with this team.

But, it's a guards game and we have guards, so it's possible I guess. I just hope Cal changes his offense to fit what he has on the floor. Shoot the damn 3.