98 Cats & 25 Cats

[JonathanW]

We all loved the 98 title team. But honestly, they were a bunch of good but not great players. I see a lot of similarities in that team, and this team.


Smith 1st year, Pope 1st year. Both with minimal experience at a P5 school (Smith 2 yrs at UGA, Pope 1 B12 yr at BYU), before that both had been at mid-majors (4 & 8 yrs). Both following big names with big egos (RP & JC).

Butler, Turner. 4th/5th year guys known for their defense over offense, but had their moments on offense (like Butler buzzer-winner in F4), also 3pt shooting a weakness for both, both had been the starting PG in a National Title game.

Mohammad & Magloire, Williams & Garrison. All 4 big bodies, an upper classman paired with an underclassman. 1 more offensive oriented, the other more defensive.

Padgett, Carr. Long, not overly athletic, 3pt shooting stretch 4's, not a #1 option but solid #2-#3 options.

Sheppard, Robinson. Both scorers with something to prove, expected to be offensive leaders. Shep being in the shadows for 3+ years, Robinson not looking like he belonged at a P5 until last year.

The rest aren't really that comparable 1 on 1, but in looking at them as a group:
- Edwards, Evans, Mills, Saul, Bradley, Anthony, Hogan
- Oweh, Brea, Kriisa, Almonor, Chandler, Noah, Perry
I would pick those last 7 (24-25) over the prior 7 (97-98)

 

[UKWildcats1987]

Tubby had been to three sweet 16s, including 2 at mid major Tulsa by the time he got here. Not final fours pre UK like Cal and Pitino had but some tourney success at two non basketball schools.

 

[mcnicKY91]

We all loved the 98 title team. But honestly, they were a bunch of good but not great players. I see a lot of similarities in that team, and this team.


Smith 1st year, Pope 1st year. Both with minimal experience at a P5 school (Smith 2 yrs at UGA, Pope 1 B12 yr at BYU), before that both had been at mid-majors (4 & 8 yrs). Both following big names with big egos (RP & JC).

Butler, Turner. 4th/5th year guys known for their defense over offense, but had their moments on offense (like Butler buzzer-winner in F4), also 3pt shooting a weakness for both, both had been the starting PG in a National Title game.

Mohammad & Magloire, Williams & Garrison. All 4 big bodies, an upper classman paired with an underclassman. 1 more offensive oriented, the other more defensive.

Padgett, Carr. Long, not overly athletic, 3pt shooting stretch 4's, not a #1 option but solid #2-#3 options.

Sheppard, Robinson. Both scorers with something to prove, expected to be offensive leaders. Shep being in the shadows for 3+ years, Robinson not looking like he belonged at a P5 until last year.

The rest aren't really that comparable 1 on 1, but in looking at them as a group:
- Edwards, Evans, Mills, Saul, Bradley, Anthony, Hogan
- Oweh, Brea, Kriisa, Almonor, Chandler, Noah, Perry
I would pick those last 7 (24-25) over the prior 7 (97-98)

Interesting comparison.

I would point out that the majority of the '98 team had played together, both in games and in practice, for years. Unfortunately, we can't say the same about this year's version.

 

[blue cincy]

Great points. I agree with it. I do think Butler is much better offense than Turner. He had a hitch in his shot. Butler shot looks smooth. The style of play at SDSU kept his scoring down to under 10 a game. I also do not think scoring is big to him. He enjoys passing to get the better shots. He rebounds about as well as any PG I can remember at UK. Defense is just above all others that I can remember.

 

[sportspm]

The 98 team had final four and national championship experience. Even if they were reserves or didn’t play, they were on the team that played in back to back championship games. So that was experience that helped them for sure

 

[BlueWorldOrder74]

Nazr and Jamaal big upgrade over what we have now. No comparison in my opinion. Nazr had a 17 year NBA career and was first rounder. Jamaal was 19th pick and played 12 years.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

I'm afraid the differences are more striking than the similarities, which are mostly superficial.

1. That 1998 team had TWO future NBA centers.
2. It had a core of players who had played on National Championship and Final Game teams.
3. Kentucky was preseason #8 in the AP Poll, and rose as high as #4 in late December.
4. It was a terrific rebounding team.
5. It was a great interior passing team.
6. It was a very strong defensive team.
7. The players had, for the most part, played together for a couple years.
8. The coach had been to the Sweet 16 with two other teams, and had just missed an Elite Eight two years earlier.

I'm not negative about this year's team. A strong case can be made that it is an overlooked team, with Tournament Sleeper capabilities.
But the things that made the 1998 team special were unique and I don't see them here.

 

[cathouse]

Tubby inherited a championship roster.
Pope inherited a steaming pile of crap from the last guy and a roster with zero players.

This team is more comparable to Pitino's first team, than Tubby's first team. At least Pitino had a few dedicated Kentucky boys come back to play for UK.

They were truly "Unforgettable", yet most people don't remember they were 14-14 that first year under Pitino.

 

[yoshukai]

I'm afraid the differences are more striking than the similarities, which are mostly superficial.

1. That 1998 team had TWO future NBA centers.
2. It had a core of players who had played on National Championship and Final Game teams.
3. Kentucky was preseason #8 in the AP Poll, and rose as high as #4 in late December.
4. It was a terrific rebounding team.
5. It was a great interior passing team.
6. It was a very strong defensive team.
7. The players had, for the most part, played together for a couple years.
8. The coach had been to the Sweet 16 with two other teams, and had just missed an Elite Eight two years earlier.

I'm not negative about this year's team. A strong case can be made that it is an overlooked team, with Tournament Sleeper capabilities.
But the things that made the 1998 team special were unique and I don't see them here.

Scott Padgett played 5/years in the nba . He’s not getting enough credit on here .

 

[HerrosHeroes]

Tubby inherited a championship roster.
Pope inherited a steaming pile of crap from the last guy and a roster with zero players.

This team is more comparable to Pitino's first team, than Tubby's first team. At least Pitino had a few dedicated Kentucky boys come back to play for UK.

They were truly "Unforgettable", yet most people don't remember they were 14-14 that first year under Pitino.

False. You are excluding the modernness of immediate transfer and NIL pay for play.
Ill leave it at that and show some class.
Take notes.

 

[KAB Cats]

The only thing I know for sure is that Pope will definitely NOT be winning a title with John Calipari's players.

 

[JonathanW]

Interesting comparison.

I would point out that the majority of the '98 team had played together, both in games and in practice, for years. Unfortunately, we can't say the same about this year's version.

Very valid point.
Although in this era, NO TEAM has that anymore. For example, Duke (who some on here think may be the favorite) has 2 guys that have played together, just 2 (I'm not counting the scrubs who won't play any). I think KU, UConn & Bama are the favorites in part because they have like 4 guys.

 

[JonathanW]

The 98 team had final four and national championship experience. Even if they were reserves or didn’t play, they were on the team that played in back to back championship games. So that was experience that helped them for sure

I think Turner was the only one who played in that 96 championship tournament, and he didn't play in the championship game.
But yes, there was a good bit of experience (5 guys + a WO who played) from the Runner-up team the year before

 

[JonathanW]

Tubby inherited a championship roster.
Pope inherited a steaming pile of crap from the last guy and a roster with zero players.

This team is more comparable to Pitino's first team, than Tubby's first team. At least Pitino had a few dedicated Kentucky boys come back to play for UK.

They were truly "Unforgettable", yet most people don't remember they were 14-14 that first year under Pitino.

No. Tubby didn't. That team was a top 15 team, not a top 5 team. They just got hot at the right time. There wasn't a star player on that team. Just several solid/good role players who knew & played their role well. Pitino didn't even think to leave or recruit a backup PG, forcing Tubby to bring in some mid-major recruit named Saul (which then hurt our recruiting a PG the next 3 years).

Pope didn't inherit crap, that would imply he interited bad players. His inheritance was nothing, so certainly less than Tubby. But it also afforded him, in the transfer portal era, plenty of room/positions/minutes to offer players to transfer in.

Not comparable at all to RP's 1st team, who simply were NOT talented. I remember that team well.

 

[NociHTTP]

No. Tubby didn't. That team was a top 15 team, not a top 5 team. They just got hot at the right time. There wasn't a star player on that team. Just several solid/good role players who knew & played their role well. Pitino didn't even think to leave or recruit a backup PG, forcing Tubby to bring in some mid-major recruit named Saul (which then hurt our recruiting a PG the next 3 years).

Pope didn't inherit crap, that would imply he interited bad players. His inheritance was nothing, so certainly less than Tubby. But it also afforded him, in the transfer portal era, plenty of room/positions/minutes to offer players to transfer in.

Not comparable at all to RP's 1st team, who simply were NOT talented. I remember that team well.

You're letting your hatred of Pitino cloud your judgement of Pope. Pope is the real deal, he inherited nothing at UK, meaning he had to cobble together an entire roster while also trying to alleviate fears from players who likely thought he couldn't win here.

 

[blue cincy]

This is a good debate but we will not be able to finish it till post season.

NIL, Transfer Portal, All changed basketball. Pitino would have had a much different team year 1 that he had with both of those things.

To think this team is more like Pitino first team is not fair if you ask me.

Carr played in ACC last year, Had 15 plus ppg and something like 7 rebounds against ACC teams, not bad, not a scrub. Butler playing at SDSU is not like playing at like playing at Missouri State. SDSU is a very good team. Played in Final four and such. Oweh was a good player last year. Only time will tell what his jump this year will be. Same for all the other players.

Did 98 team preseason have 2 defensive player of the year guys on the roster? Did it have 6th man of the year from a power 5 conference.

I will not think less of this team till they make me think less of them. We will find out before mid December what we have and what our ceiling will look like. Can we get better after mid December, sure, we can also get worse. Barring injuries we would be a top 15 team most of the year. Ceiling is in the top 5 or so (if all comes together).

 

[cathouse]

False. You are excluding the modernness of immediate transfer and NIL pay for play.
Ill leave it at that and show some class.
Take notes.

The only note I am going to take is placing you on ignore.

Not sure why I have waited this long.

Carry on with your nonsense. I will no longer participate. You obviously have issues.

Sorry my post triggered you. I wish you well.

 

[cathouse]

No. Tubby didn't. That team was a top 15 team, not a top 5 team. They just got hot at the right time. There wasn't a star player on that team. Just several solid/good role players who knew & played their role well. Pitino didn't even think to leave or recruit a backup PG, forcing Tubby to bring in some mid-major recruit named Saul (which then hurt our recruiting a PG the next 3 years).

Pope didn't inherit crap, that would imply he interited bad players. His inheritance was nothing, so certainly less than Tubby. But it also afforded him, in the transfer portal era, plenty of room/positions/minutes to offer players to transfer in.

Not comparable at all to RP's 1st team, who simply were NOT talented. I remember that team well.

Lol. Not talented?? You mean the team that would later take Duke to OT in the regional finals. A Duke team that went on to win the NC???
And, I'm pretty sure Tubby's first team actually WON THE NC. Wouldn't that make them a national championship caliber roster???

Stop hating on Pitino. The man worked miracles at UK to have started out with about 4 local players on the roster when he got here. Pitino built those championship rosters at UK. At least give him credit for what he accomplished while he was coach at UK.

One man re-built a championship program and one man destroyed a championship program.

 

[BlueSince92]

What 1998 inherited from 1996 and 1997 was a little more than what 2013 inherited from 2012.

Kyle Wiltjer had been a highly contributing member of a very powerful championship team.

Ryan Harrow had been a member of that powerful championship team and practiced with them all year. Lauded by teammates, just not allowed to play games due to prop 48.

In ‘13 Twany Beckham was in his third year as a Cat.

Ditto Jarrod Polson.

Jon Hood was in his fourth year as a Cat.

And the difference in rankings and power of the respective incoming classes, Saul Smith, Michael Bradley, Myron Anthony, and Ryan Hogan versus Archie Goodwin, Alex Poythress, Nerlens Noel, and Willie Caulie Stein certainly speaks for itself.


The ‘98 roster sure wasn’t dogmeat. But it was hardly considered pre- or mid-season to be a “championship roster.” That gets underscored when we look back on the results of 2013 who inherited similar leavings and paired that with a much, much stronger haul of additions.

To describe the 98 squad as a “championship roster” and claim what they inherited made their eventual results expected somehow, that undervalues the remarkable heart and accomplishments of that amazing overachieving underdog team, in my opinion.

 

[L.O.D.]

98 has 25 by a sizeable margin with the bigs as both Nazr and Magloire were a level better than either of this teams bigs. Shepard an Jax. Is a wash . Butler n Turner is a wash, Carr n Padgett .maybe slight edge to Pagett. 25 has the better bench pretty solidly.


Both teams are fairly even

 

[STL_Cat]

The 98 team didn’t just have tons of experience, they had tons of experience playing and winning together. I know we try to do this kind of stuff every year though.

 

[Jim Malone Lt.]

Interesting comparison. I had not thought about it.

 

[YardCat]

Whether, they are comparable on paper means nothing, it’s results that matter. 98 won a championship, if we don’t this year doesn’t necessarily mean this is a worse team or coach. This should be a relaxing year for us, there are zero expectations for us from the National Media, Pope had to build from scratch and we will have our ups and downs this year but with better results in March than the last regime. IMO

 

[JonathanW]

You're letting your hatred of Pitino cloud your judgement of Pope. Pope is the real deal, he inherited nothing at UK, meaning he had to cobble together an entire roster while also trying to alleviate fears from players who likely thought he couldn't win here.

Huh?
I don’t hate Pitino.

 

[fatguy87]

The '98 team wasn't an all time great, but they were a pretty good team. They were 35-4 on the season and finished the year 4th in SRS.

The comparisons between '98 is only superficial in that they feature new coaches. Tubby did not have to build a roster from scratch. The game is very different today than it was in the '90's. I really don't know what to expect this year lol

 

[JonathanW]

98 has 25 by a sizeable margin with the bigs as both Nazr and Magloire were a level better than either of this teams bigs. Shepard an Jax. Is a wash . Butler n Turner is a wash, Carr n Padgett .maybe slight edge to Pagett. 25 has the better bench pretty solidly.


Both teams are fairly even

You are thinking of the Nazr and Magloire that played in the NBA, not the Jr and Soph versions of them. Nazr is some better offensively, but Williams may be better defensively. I think Soph Garrison may be very similar to that Soph Magloire.

 

[Aike]

I think 2004 is a more realistic comp overall.

 

[cal=8]

This team will lose 10 or more games. We have no one that can get thier own shot. When the 3's aren't falling it will be hard to score.

Pope did a fantastic job of putting together a roster and I think the future is bright but fans should be patient. This team will struggle at times.

 

[NociHTTP]

Huh?
I don’t hate Pitino.

Hate is a strong word, I should not have used that. But I don't know why you're trying to make Tubby out to be something more than what he was, and trying to act like Pope's situation wasn't as difficult as Tubby's. Pope's situation was worse than the other two had to deal with. Something is not right with here, Jonathan.

 

[NociHTTP]

This team will lose 10 or more games. We have no one that can get thier own shot. When the 3's aren't falling it will be hard to score.

Pope did a fantastic job of putting together a roster and I think the future is bright but fans should be patient. This team will struggle at times.

This isn't a Cal team, where guys have to "get their own shots". Pope's teams run an offense that puts them in position to get shots. They didn't just shoot threes all night. They'll be just fine.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

The 1998 team had a collection of rotation players who had played a collective total of 62 tournament games at Kentucky before the '98 season.

Sheppard: 11 tournament games before 1998 (plus a full redshirt season with a runner-up team).

Mills: 6 tournament games before 1998.

Turner: 11 tournament games (didn't play in the 1996 title game).

Edwards: 13 tournament games before 1998.

Mohammed: 8 tournament games before 1998.

Magloire: 6 tournament games before 1998.

Padgett: 7 tournament games before 1998.

Even Evans redshirted and practiced against Derek Anderson and Ron Mercer throughout the entire 1997 season.

That's a total of 62 total tournament games that these guys mostly played before 1998, with Evans playing as a practice player during the 1997 Final Four run. Many of those tournament games were spent playing together.

I think the talent level if comparable, but the cohesion and experience playing together on that 1998 team was unparalleled to this current team.

 

[cal=8]

This isn't a Cal team, where guys have to "get their own shots". Pope's teams run an offense that puts them in position to get shots. They didn't just shoot threes all night. They'll be just fine.

They'll be fine but when they have a bad shooting night they will struggle to score.

 

[DreadLox]

Nazr and Jamaal big upgrade over what we have now. No comparison in my opinion. Nazr had a 17 year NBA career and was first rounder. Jamaal was 19th pick and played 12 years.

12 years? Good for him. I never knew he'd played pro ball at all.

 

[NociHTTP]

They'll be fine but when they have a bad shooting night they will struggle to score.

As would most any team, that's obvious. The point there are too many threats from deep on this team, and that's going to allow easy layups, backdoor cuts, etc.

 

[cal=8]

As would most any team, that's obvious. The point there are too many threats from deep on this team, and that's going to allow easy layups, backdoor cuts, etc.

I hope you're right. I'll be watching every game no matter what happens.

 

[NociHTTP]

I hope you're right. I'll be watching every game no matter what happens.

We all want the same thing. I'll be right there with you.

 

[JonathanW]

This team will lose 10 or more games. We have no one that can get thier own shot. When the 3's aren't falling it will be hard to score.

Pope did a fantastic job of putting together a roster and I think the future is bright but fans should be patient. This team will struggle at times.

What I've seen is that yes, ball movement is very important in this offense. And with any offense, when shots aren't going in, it's hard to score.
But also, Oweh can get to the rim with the ball. Butler can too. I think Robinson was more than just a 3pt shooter at BYU, and can create his shot too, although haven't seen that yet from him.
To me, rebounding is a bigger concern. But every team has a concern or two.

I think 10 losses is certainly a possibility (say 40%), but so is just having 6 losses. But given our schedule and how good the SEC has gotten (this isn't your daddy's SEC), probably 8-11 losses is the most likely #. But teams also play more games than 30 years ago too. Last year, outside the top 3 teams, everyone else had 7+ losses; there was a 1-seed with 7 losses, 2-seeds with 7 & 8 & 8 & 9 losses. So having 10 losses in this era is not the same as it was 20-30-40 years ago.

 

[JonathanW]

The 1998 team had a collection of rotation players who had played a collective total of 62 tournament games at Kentucky before the '98 season.

Sheppard: 11 tournament games before 1998 (plus a full redshirt season with a runner-up team).

Mills: 6 tournament games before 1998.

Turner: 11 tournament games (didn't play in the 1996 title game).

Edwards: 13 tournament games before 1998.

Mohammed: 8 tournament games before 1998.

Magloire: 6 tournament games before 1998.

Padgett: 7 tournament games before 1998.

Even Evans redshirted and practiced against Derek Anderson and Ron Mercer throughout the entire 1997 season.

That's a total of 62 total tournament games that these guys mostly played before 1998, with Evans playing as a practice player during the 1997 Final Four run. Many of those tournament games were spent playing together.

I think the talent level if comparable, but the cohesion and experience playing together on that 1998 team was unparalleled to this current team.

Most of those 62 (42 of them) were the run in 97. That was also in an era when players did not so easily/quickly leave for the NBA (or G-league, or overseas). And I would venture to guess 6-10 of those remaining 20 games were only victory-cigar minutes.

No doubt, this team won't/can't have the cohesion the 98 team had. Actually no P5 college team has that anymore, due to the transfer portal. Also can't argue this team has the tournament experience the 98 team had (in large part due to the 97 season), it doesn't.

 

[JonathanW]

Hate is a strong word, I should not have used that. But I don't know why you're trying to make Tubby out to be something more than what he was, and trying to act like Pope's situation wasn't as difficult as Tubby's. Pope's situation was worse than the other two had to deal with. Something is not right with here, Jonathan.

You really are putting words into my mouth. No sane person would argue that Pope's situation was not worse than Tubby's, of course Pope's was worse. Duh!!!

I was disputing that RP left Tubby with an elite team with no holes, which was not true. There were no star players on that team, but there were several complimentary pieces, and the hope that 1 or 2 of them could become that go-to guy. And there was no backup PG. It was a good team he inherited, but not a great team. But they achieved greatness.

To argue that Pitino's situation was not worse though, is simply wrong. He took over a team that had went 13-19 the prior year, and lost it's by-far best 2 players. The returnees were: a volume scorer who couldn't guard, a 6'8 forward that he had to play C, 3 in-state heros who belonged at Morehead/EKU/WKU/Murray St instead of UK, and a player who had not played in a year due to academics (I don't think could practice with the team either), and worst of all a probation (no tournament, and no games on tv) that meant NO decent recruits coming in. It's amazing we got the 3* Brassow to come that year as a FR.
Yes, Pope had ZERO players when he arrived, and just 1 in-state recruit. But he had something HUGE that Pitino did not have, the combination of The Transfer Portal and NIL, not to mention No Tournament Ban and No TV Ban. You aren't recognizing how big a tool that Transfer Portal is, and NIL.
To put it into artistic terms, Pope was given a blank canvas and any media he wanted (oil paints, pencils, etc...). Not much time to create a masterpiece, but he could create something quite nice. Tubby was given a very nice painting, 80-90% done, but not a masterpiece. But Pitino on the other hand was given a 1st-grader's art project and some sharpies and that was it. To compare them is an insult to Pitino and what he did. But maybe you are too young to know.

 

[UKSanders]

Lol. Not talented?? You mean the team that would later take Duke to OT in the regional finals. A Duke team that went on to win the NC???
And, I'm pretty sure Tubby's first team actually WON THE NC. Wouldn't that make them a national championship caliber roster???

Stop hating on Pitino. The man worked miracles at UK to have started out with about 4 local players on the roster when he got here. Pitino built those championship rosters at UK. At least give him credit for what he accomplished while he was coach at UK.

One man re-built a championship program and one man destroyed a championship program.

To be fair, Pitino's 1st year team wasn't good/talented.

That wasn't the same team that 2 years later took Duke to OT b/c that kid Jamal Mashburn was a pretty decent player who changed the talent level of that team. However, Mashburn didn't arrive on campus till the next season.