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Rupp Rafter NBA legends draft round 1: Drcats2013 VS Hotelblue

Which team would win a 7 game NBA playoff series?

  • Drcats2013

    Votes: 26 57.8%

  • Hotelblue

    Votes: 19 42.2%
  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .
drcats2013

drcats2013

All-SEC
Nov 13, 2012
7,494
13,809
113
32
The deep dark hills of eastern Kentucky
Drcats2013

C- Patrick Ewing
PF- Pau Gasol
SF- Larry Bird
SG- Clyde Drexler
PG- Chris Paul

Reserves: Grant Hill, Robert Parish, Sidney Moncrief, Rajon Rondo, Robert Horry, Al Horford, Dale Ellis


Hotelblue

C- Alonzo Mourning
PF- Chris Webber
SF- Paul Pierce
SG- Kobe Bryant
PG- John Stockton

Reserves: Draymond Green, Glen Rice, Dennis Johnson, Mark Eaton, Jimmy Butler, Alvin Robertson, Jerry Sloan


This poll was started at 11:24 eastern time, and will close in 24 hours.
 
I feel like my team would be a much more cohesive unit, where his team has three guys in Pierce, Kobe, and Webber, that would demand the ball. I love Zo, but Ewing is a much more dominant Center, who never got to play on a team with any star players. Power forward I would consider a wash. SF I would give Bird a HUGE advantage. Kobe I’d give a small advantage over Drexler. Stockton I would also give a slight advantage over Paul. The bench I feel is in my favor. It’s close, but I would take my team over his.
 
drcats2013 said:
I feel like my team would be a much more cohesive unit, where his team has three guys in Pierce, Kobe, and Webber, that would demand the ball. I love Zo, but Ewing is a much more dominant Center, who never got to play on a team with any star players. Power forward I would consider a wash. SF I would give Bird a HUGE advantage. Kobe I’d give a small advantage over Drexler. Stockton I would also give a slight advantage over Paul. The bench I feel is in my favor. It’s close, but I would take my team over his.
Click to expand...
nice argument but of course i didn’t get to rearrange my starting 5. i insert draymond and suddenly your argument isn’t the same lol.
 
my argument is pretty simple. my team has 51 years of combined nba all-defensive experience. 6 defensive poy’s between 4 players. my two centers led the league in blocks a combined 6 times.

i just don’t think drexler/paul could stop stockton/bryant from initiating any offense they want to run. i’ll have more gotta go...
 
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drcats2013 said:
Drcats2013

C- Patrick Ewing
PF- Pau Gasol
SF- Larry Bird
SG- Clyde Drexler
PG- Chris Paul

Reserves: Grant Hill, Robert Parish, Sidney Moncrief, Rajon Rondo, Robert Horry, Al Horford, Dale Ellis


Hotelblue

C- Alonzo Mourning
PF- Chris Webber
SF- Paul Pierce
SG- Kobe Bryant
PG- John Stockton

Reserves: Draymond Green, Glen Rice, Dennis Johnson, Mark Eaton, Jimmy Butler, Alvin Robertson, Jerry Sloan


This poll was started at 11:24 eastern time, and will close in 24 hours.
Click to expand...

Great job on fitting the pieces on both of these teams. For DRCats, I'd start Hill over Gasol (easy call) and have a devastating wing trio with a lot of versatility. I'm not sure Pau gets much run with the starters (I'd even rather have Horford in for his D, playmaking, and spacing), but he can punish Webber or bench lineups. There's so much versatility in the possible lineup combinations, primarily from Bird and Hill, that it makes the total greater than the sum. I think it's also a sneaky good rebounding team. Ewing is a rich man's Mourning, and I'd take Parish/Horford/Gasol over Eaton/Green?/Webber at the pivot all day. Horry is a nice archetype, although he's on the border of being good enough to play in a format like this. CP3's peak is probably a tad better than Stockton's; Utah home scorekeeper was notoriously friendly. Key assumption: that Larry Bird becomes a devastating 3 point shot taker/maker in this era. He'll lose a little rebounding (and get slightly exposed on D as compared to the 1980s), but dude can flat-out shoot. Drexler isn't Kobe, but people tend to forget how good he was.

For HotelBlue, I love the grit of this team. Bryant/Stockton/Mourning/Green/Butler/Robertson are famously competitive. Even DJ and Sloan are fighters. Peak Kobe might be the best player in this game, although Bird is probably a touch ahead. I love Pierce (wings just matter so much), and Webber is a nice piece to put with Mourning for playmaking and spacing (but I might prefer Horford for his D; the playmaking becomes a bit redundant). DJ is the best backup PG in this game, imho, and Butler is a fine piece to slot in where needed 2-4. Shooting guard is a clear win for HotelBlue.

I give a slight edge to DRCats for 3 reasons: 1) the wings are just a bit better; 2) there's a bit more versatility (due to the wings and guys like Horford and even Horry); and 3) the centers are both better and more versatile. HotelBlue's team has a shot due to: 1) grit/grind means they'll go farther than they probably should; 2) good balance of outside scoring and interior D; and 3) Kobe can absolutely keep them in the game.

Prediction: Pierce literally poops his pants (again), Kobe takes too many hard shots but makes more than can reasonably be expected, Hill rolls an ankle, Stockton and CP3 both tap someone in the nuts, Webber has a brain fart in a key moment, and Horry hits the game winning shot because why not.

Edit: Green in the starting lineup is interesting, but not sure it fits with Webber; Ewing would just guard Webber, and Hill is free to guard Green). I don't think Eaton gets on the floor much against all that shooting.
 
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Just play Moncrief vs. Robertson by ones, first to 3, 20 minute clock.
 
al horford better pivot than chris webber? ewing guard webber? gasol? :joy:

al horford = better defense
my team = grit?

i have the superior defensive team at every position, starters and bench.

i don’t see a player that can check kobe or webber for that matter.

grant hill guard draymond green?

i don’t even see a player that can check green let alone webber.

i’m sorry, webber/green is above gasol/horford in every way i can think of. versatility, passing, rebounding etc.

my team is clearly better at 3 positions. anyway lol.
 
bird/hill is above pierce/sloan/rice i guess. ewing/gasol over mourning/eaton fine. but the other three positions no.

the roles on my team are more clearly defined also, which imo is a major strength. i don’t see a backup center on dr’s team. gasol cannot check webber or green. he couldn’t keep up with green running the floor, and could not keep webber from going around him with his face up game. pf is a complete mismatch imo, starters and bench.

hill and bird are the same position and wouldn’t be on the floor at the same time. and rondo/hill just isn’t working. rondo controls everything while hill’s game is point forward all the way.
 
hotelblue said:
bird/hill is above pierce/sloan/rice i guess. ewing/gasol over mourning/eaton fine. but the other three positions no.

the roles on my team are more clearly defined also, which imo is a major strength. i don’t see a backup center on dr’s team. gasol cannot check webber or green. he couldn’t keep up with green running the floor, and could not keep webber from going around him with his face up game. pf is a complete mismatch imo, starters and bench.

hill and bird are the same position and wouldn’t be on the floor at the same time. and rondo/hill just isn’t working. rondo controls everything while hill’s game is point forward all the way.
Click to expand...
LOL at the bold. Also, you don’t see Robert Parish as a backup center? Come on.
 
i guess i just figured parrish would be injured. i’ll wait as far as everything else i pointed out.

gasol cannot check webber though, or green.
and drexler cannot check kobe. and they are my primary scorers.
 
hotelblue said:
i guess i just figured parrish would be injured. i’ll wait as far as everything else i pointed out.

gasol cannot check webber though, or green.
and drexler cannot check kobe. and they are my primary scorers.
Click to expand...
Until age 43, Parish NEVER missed more than 10 games in a season. Why would he be injured? Terrible argument. Also, Drexler could hold his own with Kobe. You’re underselling Clyde.
 
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drcats2013 said:
Until age 43, Parish NEVER missed more than 10 games in a season. Why would he be injured? Terrible argument. Also, Drexler could hold his own with Kobe. You’re underselling Clyde.
Click to expand...
no he couldn’t. btw cuz parrish was always banged up in the finals.
 
anyway sorry i forgot robert parrish. i feel clearly better at 3/5 positions and don’t see anyone on your team that can check my two best scores. not underselling drexler. he was better defense at sf probably. kobe is just light years quicker is all.
 
injuries in the career is not being judged just the seven game series. if we’re talking longevity, my team dominates.
 
It came down to one thing for me, and it made it an easier decision than it could have been.

Chris Paul.

Sorry DR still love u like a bro bro.
 
hotelblue said:
the roles on my team are more clearly defined also, which imo is a major strength.

hill and bird are the same position and wouldn’t be on the floor at the same time.
Click to expand...

The modern NBA says you're exactly wrong on these two things. Versatility and interchangeability is the name of the modern game.
 
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morgousky said:
It really came down to this for me. Paul Vs. Stockton

I can change my vote let's hear it.
Click to expand...
If it literally just came down to that, it’s hard to knock John Stockton. I hate Chris Paul myself, but statistically he is without question a top 10 PG of all time, and was the best PG left when I drafted him. Id argue that Ewing is clearly better overall than ZO, and that Bird and either Pierce or Draymond are further apart than any other matchup. Gasol and Webber to me is a toss up, then I give his back court an edge, although Clyde is far from a slouch, even in comparison to Kobe. My bench is in my mind superior, especially with a prime Grant Hill first off the bench, and the greatest clutch role player of all time in Robert Horry, rounding it out. Your avatar has nice boobs and lusty eyes. Vote for me.
 
Big_Blue79 said:
The modern NBA says you're exactly wrong on these two things. Versatility and interchangeability is the name of the modern game.
Click to expand...
is not a modern nba draft, it’s an all-time draft. all players from former eras that aren’t “versatile” lose too much according to your argument. yet people selected them. not sure why you’d single me out when your issue is with the general rules. maybe it’s because your initial assement of my team was mostly wrong. i said where too. care to acknowledge those things i pointed out?
 
i’m sorry but the disparity at sf doesn’t overtake my teams strength of 3/5 positions. also hill/bird were facilitators which fringes on paul and rondo’s strength, which requires all to have the ball. if we’re going on versatility i don’t see a player that matches green or sloan btw.
 
hotelblue said:
is not a modern nba draft, it’s an all-time draft. all players from former eras that aren’t “versatile” lose too much according to your argument. yet people selected them. not sure why you’d single me out when your issue is with the general rules. maybe it’s because your initial assement of my team was mostly wrong. i said where too. care to acknowledge those things i pointed out?
Click to expand...

In most other threads for this, there's a thing saying 2018 NBA rules, so I have to project how guys would be in the rules of the game. It's not singling you out; I've been consistent in every thread. I place great value on wings and versatility. Skills that scale in this type of format are defense, positional flexibility, shooting, and playmaking for others (i.e. passing). Skills that do not are shot creation (particularly inefficient, AI-style shot creation) and, with some exceptions, the post-up game (especially for 4s).

Webber loses value as compared to Horford; that doesn't mean Horford's better, but that his skills mesh better. He's almost as good of a passer, a better shooter, and a much better defender. Draymond is pretty awesome when playing with shooters, but he needs the ball in his hand (like Rondo, only Rondo doesn't matter because he's not playing because he's just not that good). I love Draymond, just don't see the right pieces around him on this team to maximize his value. Did you say Green is one of your primary scorers? What?

I'd take Ewing/Gasol/Horford/Parish over Mourning/Webber/Green/Eaton. Just more ways to use the former than the latter. And Bird or Hill can play the 4 in small lineups while still threatening from outside. CP3/Moncrief (luxury to play Moncrief as a 1 due to playmaking on the wings) is about even with Stockton/DJ. Kobe > Drexler, but that's your only clear win. The frontcourt is Drcats, and SF is a clear win for Drcats.

Jerry Sloan? I assumed he was the coach. Is he playing? Wow. I also assume guys like Rondo and Dale Ellis are just to fill out the rosters and won't play. No NBA team goes 12 deep, why would these?
 
morgousky said:
It really came down to this for me. Paul Vs. Stockton

I can change my vote let's hear it.
Click to expand...
I read an article once (that's probably 3 or 4 years old now so I would never be able to find it) that looked at the advanced metrics of top all-time point guards: Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, Stockton, and one other player.... maybe Oscar.

At any rate the conclusion was the Paul and Stockton were nearly identical players looking at their advanced metrics. Personally I prefer Stockton over Chris Paul. Stockton is the all-time leader for assists and steals, and those numbers may never be topped given his durability and longevity. Plus, I just loved watching those late-90s Jazz teams.
 
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Big_Blue79 said:
In most other threads for this, there's a thing saying 2018 NBA rules, so I have to project how guys would be in the rules of the game. It's not singling you out; I've been consistent in every thread. I place great value on wings and versatility. Skills that scale in this type of format are defense, positional flexibility, shooting, and playmaking for others (i.e. passing). Skills that do not are shot creation (particularly inefficient, AI-style shot creation) and, with some exceptions, the post-up game (especially for 4s).

Webber loses value as compared to Horford; that doesn't mean Horford's better, but that his skills mesh better. He's almost as good of a passer, a better shooter, and a much better defender. Draymond is pretty awesome when playing with shooters, but he needs the ball in his hand (like Rondo, only Rondo doesn't matter because he's not playing because he's just not that good). I love Draymond, just don't see the right pieces around him on this team to maximize his value. Did you say Green is one of your primary scorers? What?

I'd take Ewing/Gasol/Horford/Parish over Mourning/Webber/Green/Eaton. Just more ways to use the former than the latter. And Bird or Hill can play the 4 in small lineups while still threatening from outside. CP3/Moncrief (luxury to play Moncrief as a 1 due to playmaking on the wings) is about even with Stockton/DJ. Kobe > Drexler, but that's your only clear win. The frontcourt is Drcats, and SF is a clear win for Drcats.

Jerry Sloan? I assumed he was the coach. Is he playing? Wow. I also assume guys like Rondo and Dale Ellis are just to fill out the rosters and won't play. No NBA team goes 12 deep, why would these?
Click to expand...
ok so my argument on rondo means nothing because now you say he won’t play? so horford isn’t filling out his roster too? just making everything up as you go? you contradict yourself too much. you pretty much get no respect from me here because the matchups you point out in your first response are just laughable. hill checking green. pau checking webber. these are ludicrous. and yeah jerry sloan is more versatile a defender by himself than anyone on dr’s team. you can like whoever you want just use your head lol.
 
Big_Blue79 said:
In most other threads for this, there's a thing saying 2018 NBA rules, so I have to project how guys would be in the rules of the game. It's not singling you out; I've been consistent in every thread. I place great value on wings and versatility. Skills that scale in this type of format are defense, positional flexibility, shooting, and playmaking for others (i.e. passing). Skills that do not are shot creation (particularly inefficient, AI-style shot creation) and, with some exceptions, the post-up game (especially for 4s).

Webber loses value as compared to Horford; that doesn't mean Horford's better, but that his skills mesh better. He's almost as good of a passer, a better shooter, and a much better defender. Draymond is pretty awesome when playing with shooters, but he needs the ball in his hand (like Rondo, only Rondo doesn't matter because he's not playing because he's just not that good). I love Draymond, just don't see the right pieces around him on this team to maximize his value. Did you say Green is one of your primary scorers? What?

I'd take Ewing/Gasol/Horford/Parish over Mourning/Webber/Green/Eaton. Just more ways to use the former than the latter. And Bird or Hill can play the 4 in small lineups while still threatening from outside. CP3/Moncrief (luxury to play Moncrief as a 1 due to playmaking on the wings) is about even with Stockton/DJ. Kobe > Drexler, but that's your only clear win. The frontcourt is Drcats, and SF is a clear win for Drcats.

Jerry Sloan? I assumed he was the coach. Is he playing? Wow. I also assume guys like Rondo and Dale Ellis are just to fill out the rosters and won't play. No NBA team goes 12 deep, why would these?
Click to expand...

If you go back and look at the original thread, 2018 rules were never mentioned. It was just play a 7 game series.

When the draft was nearly over, some conversation came up about what rules apply. There are different schools of thought.

Some posters contended that modern rules apply, or at least that posters will view it that way.

I’m more of the school that you will feel however you feel about the teams and players and vote accordingly. I have no problem with the concept that generational talents would adapt to whatever era they played in.

But no, before we started drafting our teams, there was nothing about 2018 rules applying. The only rule was no Michael Jordan.
 
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using bench players to say his overall front court is better than mine while saying bench players are just to fill out rosters is a contradiction. what’s more it says his front court is better because of a player who doesn’t start. good gracious.

if starters are so paramount then why will neither you nor dr. acknowledge that his starter gasol is out of position against cweb? again starters, i don’t think his starters are better. mourning has identical numbers head to head with ewing. webber averaged more points rebounds and assists than gasol. that’s pretty good. ewing was never first team all-defense and mourning won two poy.

and you really think they could keep up with bird mentally? i think cweb and bird for instance would be insanely good. but bird and gasol? he doesn’t have the post moves of mchale let alone cweb. all in all i think my starting post is just as good.
 
This one was very close for me. Hotel is better at 3 positions, but Larry Bird is >> Pierce, and I prefer DR’s bench.

Ultimately, I went with Hotel because in a 7 game series this big, Chris Paul is destined to pull a hamstring. Sorry.
 
Aike said:
This one was very close for me. Hotel is better at 3 positions, but Larry Bird is >> Pierce, and I prefer DR’s bench.

Ultimately, I went with Hotel because in a 7 game series this big, Chris Paul is destined to pull a hamstring. Sorry.
Click to expand...
I mean, that’s fair. However, I didn’t think injuries were to be taken into account in this draft. Could be wrong, though. Of course it’s complelty to the voters discretion what they penalize a team for. Me personally, injuries have had nothing to do with how I’ve been voting. I’m expecting the best from each player in each match up
 
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hotelblue said:
ok so my argument on rondo means nothing because now you say he won’t play? so horford isn’t filling out his roster too? just making everything up as you go? you contradict yourself too much. you pretty much get no respect from me here because the matchups you point out in your first response are just laughable. hill checking green. pau checking webber. these are ludicrous. and yeah jerry sloan is more versatile a defender by himself than anyone on dr’s team. you can like whoever you want just use your head lol.
Click to expand...

hotelblue said:
using bench players to say his overall front court is better than mine while saying bench players are just to fill out rosters is a contradiction. what’s more it says his front court is better because of a player who doesn’t start. good gracious.

if starters are so paramount then why will neither you nor dr. acknowledge that his starter gasol is out of position against cweb? again starters, i don’t think his starters are better. mourning has identical numbers head to head with ewing. webber averaged more points rebounds and assists than gasol. that’s pretty good. ewing was never first team all-defense and mourning won two poy.

and you really think they could keep up with bird mentally? i think cweb and bird for instance would be insanely good. but bird and gasol? he doesn’t have the post moves of mchale let alone cweb. all in all i think my starting post is just as good.
Click to expand...

Because you've so misconstrued my arguments and generally been a prick (I just gave my honest analysis and you responded with unwarranted and agressive hostility, while simultaneously showing a profound ignorance for how basketball rotations work), I'm going to lay out some pretty obvious principles once and move on from you for good.
  1. Players don't play well when going all 48 minutes, so evaluating a frontcourt as 3-4 players is 100% correct.
  2. Teams generally go 8-10 deep as needed. There are generally pretty big dropoffs after that; so, too, here. So there is no "contradiction" about relying on bench players to discuss who plays (Horford, Hill, Butler, Green) and who really doesn't matter (Rondo, Sloan, Ellis, likely Eaton and Rice).
  3. I assume these teams are not coached by troglodytes, so I assume they'll mix and match as required even in starting lineups, especially when there's less of a dropoff between low-end starters and top-end bench guys here than there typically is on NBA teams.
 
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