You Might Want to Sit Down For This One

[Son_Of_Saul]

Sometimes it's just better not to speak. I love Cal and what he has done for UK, and any thinking person understands program success is a function of player success. I would rather he just say that instead of continually beating the "players first" drum.

We all get it. You're a players first coach. That's great. Now take that passion and turn it into another national title or two. Be an advocate for and representative of the University of Kentucky...not only the players. Part of being a leader is not just knowing when to speak and what to say, but knowing when not to speak and what not to say.

But what do I know? I'm just a couch coach while he's in the Hall of Fame. He's a lot smarter than me when it comes to basketball.

I think Cal loves UK and loves our fans, but he's also the only coach in America who has to constantly resupply with a load of 5 stars every year.

In order to do that, he has to sell "player's first". It's why they keep coming here, and why UK is in the national title hunt virtually every season. We're used to it all now, but guys like Tubby Smith and Billy G once put the program first, and the result was eleven straight years without a Final Four. That sucked, and I don't want to go back to those days, even if it means the head coach publically puts me second as a fan. Ultimately, we're reaping the benefits of the "player's first" in ways we never did when the former coaches adopted "program first."

 

[3rex]

I actually agree with much of what you say Saul...BUT I'm not sure I can go along with this idea of certainly BCG, or even Tubby putting the program first.

 

[MakinMusic]

I never understand why so many fans gets all worked up over these type comments from Cal or any other coach. The guy is a winner. He wants to win more than any of you. His life is built on winning basketball games. He has to have more than one goal, otherwise all is lost when we don't win a championship. It's beyond me why so many of you don't "get it." You work yourselves into a lather of the silliest things. Just personalities I suppose......

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

I would not watch that Wisconsin game again unless forced to. Unreal that some of you do.

It's only fair that if someone's going to comment on the game and hurl criticism, they actually re-watch it so they're arguments aren't perceived as baseless.

Too many people have been slinging anti-Cal mud for eight months and they really only have a peripheral view of what happened in that game. Even at the time of the game itself, all of our initial views were distorted due to the raw emotion we felt while watching the game live.

I can understand not re-watching, though; I can also understand not commenting as a result of a dimly lit vantage point as to what actually happened. Those two aspects should actually correspond.

 

[CBBCrazy]

He is just priming the pump, so when Skal fails to develop any losses we have were to get him to the NBA. I don't care how much you bash me so have at it, but I'm not finished yet so save it. The last five minutes of the game against Wisconsin was hoping to get the twins in the draft, it made no difference whether we win or not just get them drafted (how did that work out). I felt that way then, it has not changed. I love the guy as our coach but I have been a UK fan since he was crapping yellow in diapers and UK means more to me than any coach or player going to the NBA.....now have at it. Feels pretty good to get that off my chest, Happy New Year!!!!

 

[hoodro]

The last five minutes of the game against Wisconsin was hoping to get the twins in the draft, it made no difference whether we win or not just get them drafted

Exactly. Because five minutes in a single Final 4 game was going to make or break their draft status after playing for two full seasons.

Pay no mind to the two full seasons the scouts had already watched them play. The only thing that mattered was those last five minutes.

Maybe if UK gets to the Final 4 this year, Cal will do Johnny David a favor and get him drafted.

Just stick the kid in there for the last five minutes of the game because evidently that's all it takes to get drafted.

 

[3rex]

Exactly. Because five minutes in a single Final 4 game was going to make or break their draft status after playing for two full seasons.

Pay no mind to the two full seasons the scouts had already watched them play. The only thing that mattered was those last five minutes.

Maybe if UK gets to the Final 4 this year, Cal will do Johnny David a favor and get him drafted.

Just stick the kid in there for the last five minutes of the game because evidently that's all it takes to get drafted.

Good point. Everyone knows NBA scouts stop evaluating at the 5:00 mark of the 2nd half.

 

[Hoskins91]

He is just priming the pump, so when Skal fails to develop any losses we have were to get him to the NBA. I don't care how much you bash me so have at it, but I'm not finished yet so save it. The last five minutes of the game against Wisconsin was hoping to get the twins in the draft, it made no difference whether we win or not just get them drafted (how did that work out). I felt that way then, it has not changed. I love the guy as our coach but I have been a UK fan since he was crapping yellow in diapers and UK means more to me than any coach or player going to the NBA.....now have at it. Feels pretty good to get that off my chest, Happy New Year!!!!

You're an idiot.

 

[Hoskins91]

I'll also echo the question of why did someone dig this back up after all this time?

 

[bigbluelou]

I never understand why so many fans gets all worked up over these type comments from Cal or any other coach. The guy is a winner. He wants to win more than any of you. His life is built on winning basketball games. He has to have more than one goal, otherwise all is lost when we don't win a championship. It's beyond me why so many of you don't "get it." You work yourselves into a lather of the silliest things. Just personalities I suppose......

Who's in a lather or all worked up? Not me.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Random thread to be dug up 7 months later.

 

[hoodro]

Good point. Everyone knows NBA scouts stop evaluating at the 5:00 mark of the 2nd half.

That's not the point. The point is after two full seasons of evaluation, five minutes at the end of a single game isn't going to determine a player's draft stock. That's nonsense and to say differently is moronic.

 

[JC CATS]

No one can defend what he said regardless of rationalization. His job at UK is not to get players to the league. It's to win championships. He's not paid millions of dollars to cater to the athlete, it's to consider the STUDENT athlete, to put the best TEAM on the floor and to enable higher graduation rates. The twins were never serious about being students and imo should have never been here. Cal is a college coach and needs to carry himself as one

They pay him millions of dollars and all he does is recruit #1 class year after year and is in the running for the National title nearly every year. Can't we get a better coach?

 

[3rex]

That's not the point. The point is after two full seasons of evaluation, five minutes at the end of a single game isn't going to determine a player's draft stock. That's nonsense and to say differently is moronic.

I'm not a scout, and maybe it is, but in my opinion if the player is Kobe Bryant, Anthony Davis, or anothermsurefire top pick you would be right.
But when a player is projected anywhere from the end of tha 1st round to not being drafted at all, then I certainly believe every single minute is used to evaluate & a player could play himself into or out of the draft or 1st round with a memorable, or forgettable, performance down the stretch of a big game.
To think differently is equally moronic.

 

[USNNFOCAT]

No flamer here, but why say it? He can get recruits regardless if he says stuff like that or not. His reputation for getting guys into the league speaks for itself. No kid is going to come to school here because Cal says that the goal was to get 8 guys into the draft. Why say it? What does it accomplish by saying this when you know the absolute 100% goal of every Big Blue fan was to win it all. I'm not saying that was not the ultimate goal for Cal, but why even say something like that?

Because he wants to say it, that's why. And given his success throughout his career, and particularly at UK, who are we to question the method to his madness? People seem to forget that we hadn't been to a final 4 since 1998 before Cal in 10-11. We've had 3 since then, a runner up and a national championship to boot. Enjoy the ride, this isn't going to last forever.

 

[hoodro]

I'm not a scout, and maybe it is, but in my opinion if the player is Kobe Bryant, Anthony Davis, or anothermsurefire top pick you would be right.
But when a player is projected anywhere from the end of tha 1st round to not being drafted at all, then I certainly believe every single minute is used to evaluate & a player could play himself into or out of the draft or 1st round with a memorable, or forgettable, performance down the stretch of a big game.
To think differently is equally moronic.

Think what you want. The twins were what they were. The NBA knew exactly what that was. Those five minutes weren't going to change a thing.

It's not like if the twins owned those last five minutes, and UK goes onto beat Wisconsin, then they are both all the sudden considered early first round locks. No, absolutely not. That wouldn't have changed their flaws one bit in the mind of the scouts. They still would have been average shooters, that lacked athleticism and couldn't finish well at the rim.

Think back to the year before. Aaron had three of the most memorable moments ever down the stretch in three big games. What did that do for his draft stock? Not much because after that tournament run he was still projected late first round early second round, and that's why he chose to come back to school.

 

[DwayneMeighan]

He is just priming the pump, so when Skal fails to develop any losses we have were to get him to the NBA. I don't care how much you bash me so have at it, but I'm not finished yet so save it. The last five minutes of the game against Wisconsin was hoping to get the twins in the draft, it made no difference whether we win or not just get them drafted (how did that work out). I felt that way then, it has not changed. I love the guy as our coach but I have been a UK fan since he was crapping yellow in diapers and UK means more to me than any coach or player going to the NBA.....now have at it. Feels pretty good to get that off my chest, Happy New Year!!!!

I'm not really going to try too hard to refute this statement because in order to do so, I would have to talk negatively about other UK players, and that's something I would rather not do.

Instead I'll just make a suggestion and give a hint. Go back and watch that game again, particularly on the defensive side of the ball, and the answer of why the twins where in the game during crunch will become very clear to you.

 

[LmdCat]

its an obvious recruiting tool and anyone who takes it out of context is a flamer.

Does anyone really believe the goal wasnt to win a title?

NO

It doesn't matter what Cal says; There will always be people like you that are more than willing to tell us exactly what he really meant. What a joke! Cal has never made it a secret that the most important goal of his is putting players into the NBA. What do you think is meant by "players first?" I couldn't care less about what his primary goal is as long as UK keeps winning. If winning happens to be a byproduct of him sending players to the NBA, I am ok with it until the team stops winning.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

It doesn't matter what Cal says; There will always be people like you that are more than willing to tell us exactly what he really meant. What a joke! Cal has never made it a secret that the most important goal of his is putting player into the NBA. What do you think is meant by "players fist?" I couldn't care less about what his primary goal is as long as UK keeps winning. If winning happens to be a byproduct of him sending players to the NBA, I am ok with it until the team stops winning.

And the team will always win as long as it has a lot of NBA players on the roster. The two go hand in hand.

 

[3rex]

Think what you want. The twins were what they were. The NBA knew exactly what that was. Those five minutes weren't going to change a thing.
.

which team do you scout for?

 

[Ripcord65]

Hey, mrschwump . . . He lost the Wisconsin game for us before they ever threw the ball up in the game. "We don't watch film of our opponents. We just try to play our game." Not making all of our bigs watch film on Kaminsky was the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Kaminsky had about three unorthodox but completely predictable offensive moves. If our bigs had watched film on him they would have anticipated those funky offensive moves and would have completely shut Kaminsky down in the paint. Alas.

 

[LmdCat]

And the team will always win as long as it has a lot of NBA players on the roster. The two go hand in hand.

It doesn't go hand in hand, not when you are putting players on the court during certain situations that shouldn't be there. That is even more so when that decision prevents your team from winning an NC. This is exactly the reason why Cal will continue top play players like Murray even when he is playing completely out of control. That is exactly why some players on the team have very long leashes while other players get yanked off the floor after a single mistake. Cal has learned that Cal fans unlike UK fans will tolerate anything he says.

 

[Aike]

Not sure if you are joking or not, but it's scapegoat.

Scapegoat (in the Bible) is a goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16).

Why would joke about something as serious as an escape goat. You should do some research.

 

[bigbluelou]

Why would joke about something as serious as an escape goat. You should do some research.

What a pre madonna.

 

[hoodro]

which team do you scout for?

None, but I can confidently say for a fact, that most, good NBA scouts don't discount, throw out and/or ignore two years worth of evaluation and make knee jerk reactions based on the final five minutes of a Final 4 game.

 

[3rex]

and no one ever said or implied that they do anything like that...

 

[hoodro]

and no one ever said or implied that they do anything like that...

The post I replied to to begin with most certainly implied that the only reason Cal had the twins in the game during those last five minutes was to get them drafted.

 

[LmdCat]

The post I replied to to begin with most certainly implied that the only reason Cal had the twins in the game during those last five minutes was to get them drafted.

They certainly weren't in the game at that moment because they were producing.

 

[3rex]

None, but I can confidently say for a fact, that most, good NBA scouts don't discount, throw out and/or ignore two years worth of evaluation and make knee jerk reactions based on the final five minutes of a Final 4 game.

The post I replied to to begin with most certainly implied that the only reason Cal had the twins in the game during those last five minutes was to get them drafted.

and yet no one ever said, or implied, that they do anything like what you allude to above...

 

[hoodro]

They certainly weren't in the game at that moment because they were producing.

All I can say to that is there are two sides of the court in a basketball game. Like others in this thread have suggested, go back and watch the game again. It's fairly clear why Cal chose to go with them, and it had absolutely nothing to do with their draft stock.

 

[LetsHang#9]

The last five minutes of the game against Wisconsin was hoping to get the twins in the draft, it made no difference whether we win or not just get them drafted

Most moronic thing I've read in a while. Congrats.

 

[hoodro]

and yet no one ever said, or implied, that they do anything like what you allude to above...

The post I originally replied to did. It said the only reason the twins were in the game during that last five minutes was to get them drafted, like the scouts were just going to ignore the previous two full seasons, and focus only on those five minutes.

Again, the jury was already out on the twins. Those five minutes weren't going to make or break their draft stock. UK wins that game and they both still get drafted exactly where they were drafted.

 

[3rex]

The post never said scouts were just going to ignore the last two full seasons & focus on those last 5 minutes. You added that for dramatic effect.

 

[LmdCat]

All I can say to that is there are two sides of the court in a basketball game. Like others in this thread have suggested, go back and watch the game again. It's fairly clear why Cal chose to go with them, and it had absolutely nothing to do with their draft stock.

You can say whatever you want, but they weren't playing well at that point and should have been pulled from the game.

 

[Katwatcher]

No flamer here, but why say it? He can get recruits regardless if he says stuff like that or not. His reputation for getting guys into the league speaks for itself. No kid is going to come to school here because Cal says that the goal was to get 8 guys into the draft. Why say it? What does it accomplish by saying this when you know the absolute 100% goal of every Big Blue fan was to win it all. I'm not saying that was not the ultimate goal for Cal, but why even say something like that?

My thoughts exactly. It is hard to figure why someone else has to tell you what he said. Why would he say this is the big question. I've often wondered why he's said other things similar to this. Maybe its just a way of having an excuse just in case he doesn't win the NCAA. I just don't know.

 

[hoodro]

You can say whatever you want, but they weren't playing well at that point and should have been pulled from the game.

You do realize that if not for the twins, then UK more than likely isn't in the position they were in - with a lead down the stretch, and a chance to win the game. I suggest you go back and watch the game again.

 

[hoodro]

The post never said scouts were just going to ignore the last two full seasons & focus on those last 5 minutes. You added that for dramatic effect.

You can talk in circles all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is, that post implied that the twins drafts hopes rested on the last five of that game, acting as if those five minutes were all that mattered in terms of them being drafted, and saying that's the only reason Cal played them. It's not my problem if you can't comprehend that.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Why would joke about something as serious as an escape goat. You should do some research.

Okay, gotcha. I guess I should have thought about it first. I guess my fast paste posting got the best of me. LOL!

 

[brianpoe]

Because as you alluded to earlier, Andrew continually either refused to do what Cal asked, or was unable to do so. And it cost us valuable possessions at the end, and ultimately the game.

Tyler and Booker were being abused on defense. It was obvious.

 

[brianpoe]

Indeed. Using the talent factor is a retroactive determination is a rather subjective one. Lyles, Booker, WCS, the twins - none of those guys possessed the transcendence to overcome an off game and most of them were drafted on potential. That is to say, none of them were exponentially better than their college counterparts at Wisconsin, not at the college level, anyway. Towns was really the only guy who possessed the elite talent that was met in college. Against a disciplined system with a few high quality NBA-level talents (like Wisky) or another team with a comparable amount NBA talent (like Duke), an off day could send a team like Kentucky packing. That's exactly what happened.

People have started treating the draft as if it's an explanation for having met a standard of expectation while in college. The reality is that for most guys in the draft, it's all about high levels of potential. For the majority of UK's roster, that was the case last year. From a college-impact level, it's hard to say that Booker or Lyles were exponentially better than Koenig and Hayes. Booker and Lyles were and are greater from a potential level, however.

You can talk in circles all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is, that post implied that the twins drafts hopes rested on the last five of that game, acting as if those five minutes were all that mattered in terms of them being drafted, and saying that's the only reason Cal played them. It's not my problem if you can't comprehend that.

Excellent posts!