Who was the biggest cheater, Dean Smith or John Wooden?

[Bigblueforever]

I truly wish that Adolph Rupp could say something about all of this. He would kick ass, and take names.

Rupp would tell it like is, and if that shoe fit wear it well.

 

[rabidcatfan]

Wooden, by far and away. Sam "Papa Sam" Gilbert essentially bought him 8 National Championships (that we know of) starting in 1966. I still don't believe that his association with UCLA as a booster didn't start earlier in '61-'62. Whats even worse is that the NCAA knows it and has not stripped UCLA of their titles and wins which should have been done. Gilbert provided cash, cars, clothes, and even arranged for abortions for player girlfriends?!?!? This greatly influenced recruiting and brought players in from all over the country. The only thing the school ever got was being stripped of their 1980 Final Four appearance and a "slap on the wrist" two-year probation. The NCAA had collected at least 15 years worth of violations leading all of the way back to the 1965 season, but probably went further than that, likely back to the 62-63 season. Before 1962-63, Wooden was 309-131 (.702%) in 16 seasons as a head coach (including a two year stop at Indiana State). His teams never finished any better than NCAA fourth place. After the 1961-62 season a miraculous thing happened, UCLA started becoming a force - going 355-31 (.919%) in the final 13 seasons of his career, winning an unprecedented 10 National Championships and tallying an NCAA record 88 game winning streak between 1971-1974. He also coached four undefeated teams during that stretch. It's amazing the transformation his involvement with Gilbert had on his career and his legacy.

 

[JPScott]

I came across this article and was struck by how blatant it was as an example of trying to defile Rupp and Kentucky while praising Smith. Why can't they just praise Smith and leave Rupp out of it?

. . .

It's no wonder Kentucky fans get so infuriated at the media with the moth eaten criticism of Rupp which apparently is a requirement when praising Dean on anything race related. There is simply not a lot out there to condemn Rupp on this issue as Jon Scott has pointed out in the past.http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/ruppmythlegend_frame.html

Another EXCERPT: "In 1966, Scott became North Carolina's first African-American scholarship player and one of the first black athletes to sign at a major school south of the Mason-Dixon line."

One of the first to sign at a major school in the South? yea, like how about the one 8 miles away in Durham who signed before Charlie Scott? (C.B. Claiborne)

It's very true that it's been frustrating to see on the one hand people go out of their way to denigrate and scape-goat Rupp, often relying on incorrect information, and then turn around and praise Dean Smith, oftentimes giving him credit for things that frankly he doesn't deserve.

At least 10 years ago while researching integration in the 1960s I started to openly question exactly what Dean Smith said and did during that pivotal time period to earn the many accolades that he's received. Many people take it as a given that Smith was a civil rights activist, even that he was an active protester etc.

Yet I've never found anything of the sort, and have asked numerous scholars and writers [including people like Richard Lapchick, John Feinstein and numerous UNC writers (i.e. guys who are at the forefront of trying to canonize Smith over integration) for direct evidence of what they're talking about and none have provided anything of substance.]

I've practically begged UNC fans to find information which supports this claim of Smith sticking his neck out during that time and again, nothing.

The weird thing is that if you look at the 1960's and before, and compare quotes and actions that Rupp and Smith did, Rupp stuck his neck out numerous times and personally did a lot to smooth the way for large-scale integration to occur, not just in terms of college basketball but in Lexington as well.

Smith gets a ton of credit for Charlie Scott, which he should. But before that I don't know what exactly he did that made a lasting difference.

If someone wants to jump in and defend Coach Smith, then that's great. But a couple things I'll note before they do because it's likely they'll bring up the same things are are often mentioned:

1.) Smith is given credit because his father coached black players in high school in Kansas in the 1930's, integrating the basketball team for the first time. That's great, but keep in mind that Rupp himself integrated his basketball team for the first time at Freeport HS in Illinois in the late 20's.

So if people want to give Smith credit for something Smith's father did, then maybe they should give Rupp credit for something Rupp himself did.

2.) Smith is given credit because the year after he graduated from high school in Topeka Kansas, his high school team no longer kept separate black and white basketball teams. Supposedly Smith had mentioned something to the administration and this helped this change to happen.

That sounds great but first of all, it's not clear how much if any effect Smith's words had on the decision for the school to change from two teams to one. (as opposed to other seemingly more critical factors including the general political, social and economic climate at the time) Secondly, if you actually go back and look at the teams for the following year, what you'll find is that the first year of having only one team, the Varsity remained all white!

In effect the result of going from two teams to one team was not racial harmony as Smith's proponents like to assume, but instead a fully functioning black basketball program (The Ramblers) which included their own coaches and cheerleaders etc. simply ceased to exist.

3.) Oftentimes people point to the much told story of how when Smith was an assistant coach at UNC that he brought a black theology student to eat lunch at a segregated restaurant. The implication being that this led to desegregation of the restaurant.

While I think that Smith indeed deserves praise for this act of courage, I do think it's important to note that this act by itself did not meaningfully change the policies of the restaurant. The restaurant remained segregated for many years afterwards, and in fact was the scene of violent protests.

Again whether Smith said or did anything during this time, I don't know. Maybe he did, but I haven't found any such evidence and no one has been able to provide anything of the sort.

In comparison, Rupp in the early 1950's personally set up arrangements with both the Lafayette and Phoenix hotels to allow integrated teams to stay there. (And unlike UNC, UK did host numerous integrated teams throughout the 1950's and early 1960's.)

This established a policy by the hotels which paved the way for black guests to stay at these hotels, and ensured that they would be served etc., including at the restaurants in the hotel etc.

 

[jimmygoiu]

It's very true that it's been frustrating to see on the one hand people go out of their way to denigrate and scape-goat Rupp, often relying on incorrect information, and then turn around and praise Dean Smith, oftentimes giving him credit for things that frankly he doesn't deserve.

At least 10 years ago while researching integration in the 1960s I started to openly question exactly what Dean Smith said and did during that pivotal time period to earn the many accolades that he's received. Many people take it as a given that Smith was a civil rights activist, even that he was an active protester etc.

Yet I've never found anything of the sort, and have asked numerous scholars and writers [including people like Richard Lapchick, John Feinstein and numerous UNC writers (i.e. guys who are at the forefront of trying to canonize Smith over integration) for direct evidence of what they're talking about and none have provided anything of substance.]

I've practically begged UNC fans to find information which supports this claim of Smith sticking his neck out during that time and again, nothing.

The weird thing is that if you look at the 1960's and before, and compare quotes and actions that Rupp and Smith did, Rupp stuck his neck out numerous times and personally did a lot to smooth the way for large-scale integration to occur, not just in terms of college basketball but in Lexington as well.

Smith gets a ton of credit for Charlie Scott, which he should. But before that I don't know what exactly he did that made a lasting difference.

If someone wants to jump in and defend Coach Smith, then that's great. But a couple things I'll note before they do because it's likely they'll bring up the same things are are often mentioned:

1.) Smith is given credit because his father coached black players in high school in Kansas in the 1930's, integrating the basketball team for the first time. That's great, but keep in mind that Rupp himself integrated his basketball team for the first time at Freeport HS in Illinois in the late 20's.

So if people want to give Smith credit for something Smith's father did, then maybe they should give Rupp credit for something Rupp himself did.

2.) Smith is given credit because the year after he graduated from high school in Topeka Kansas, his high school team no longer kept separate black and white basketball teams. Supposedly Smith had mentioned something to the administration and this helped this change to happen.

That sounds great but first of all, it's not clear how much if any effect Smith's words had on the decision for the school to change from two teams to one. (as opposed to other seemingly more critical factors including the general political, social and economic climate at the time) Secondly, if you actually go back and look at the teams for the following year, what you'll find is that the first year of having only one team, the Varsity remained all white!

In effect the result of going from two teams to one team was not racial harmony as Smith's proponents like to assume, but instead a fully functioning black basketball program (The Ramblers) which included their own coaches and cheerleaders etc. simply ceased to exist.

3.) Oftentimes people point to the much told story of how when Smith was an assistant coach at UNC that he brought a black theology student to eat lunch at a segregated restaurant. The implication being that this led to desegregation of the restaurant.

While I think that Smith indeed deserves praise for this act of courage, I do think it's important to note that this act by itself did not meaningfully change the policies of the restaurant. The restaurant remained segregated for many years afterwards, and in fact was the scene of violent protests.

Again whether Smith said or did anything during this time, I don't know. Maybe he did, but I haven't found any such evidence and no one has been able to provide anything of the sort.

In comparison, Rupp in the early 1950's personally set up arrangements with both the Lafayette and Phoenix hotels to allow integrated teams to stay there. (And unlike UNC, UK did host numerous integrated teams throughout the 1950's and early 1960's.)

This established a policy by the hotels which paved the way for black guests to stay at these hotels, and ensured that they would be served etc., including at the restaurants in the hotel etc.

Rupp may be misunderstood, but there is a lot of books, print, and a movie, that paints a much different picture of the Baron than you do. Frank Deford, Harry Lancaster, Louisville Courier and the book "Loose Balls" are a few of the media examples examining the views of Rupp.

Times were different back then, but I think it is disingenuous to paint Smith and Wooden in such negative light, as many posters are doing here. Knight may not have cheated, to my knowledge, but he surely embarrassed IU and the fans with some of his actions over the years. Rupp is somewhat different than some revisionists portray him.

Overall, the positive impact of Smith, Wooden, Rupp and Knight far outshadowed the negagive for their universities.

 

[Alumni Gym]

Rupp may be misunderstood, but there is a lot of print, and a movie, that paints a much different picture of the Baron than you do. From an excerpt in the Louisville Courier:

'He said, ‘You've got to beat those coons,’ He turned to (center)Thad Jaracz. 'You go after that big coon.' . . . He talked that way all the time. . . A chill went through me. I was standing in the back of the room, and I looked around at the players. They all kind of ducked their heads. They were embarrassed. This was clearly the type of thing that went over the line." Frank Deford, Sports Illustrated, reporting on Coach Adolph Rupp’s halftime exhortations in the UK Wildcat’s locker room.

"Harry, that son of a bitch is ordering me to get some ******s in here. What am I going to do ? He's the boss." Harry Lancaster, long-time assistant to Rupp, in his book Adolph Rupp As I Knew Him (Lexington Productions, 1979), quoting Rupp on Dr. John Oswald, UK President.

“Once, I was on a flight with Rupp and sat with him in the first-class section. He had about six Kentucky bourbons in less than an hour and was about halfway to the wind. I told him that I was an attorney who represented some basketball players. Now, I had never met the man, and the first significant thing he said to me was, ‘The trouble with the ABA is that there are too many ****** boys in it now.’ I sat there just stunned. That just killed my image of Adolph Rupp the great coach. Maybe it was because he had too much to drink, but even so...” - Loose Balls by Terry Pluto, Simon & Schuster, 1990, pg. 241. '

Times were different back then, but I think it is disingenuous to paint Smith and Wooden in such negative light, as many posters are doing here. Knight may not have cheated, to my knowledge, but he surely embarrassed IU and the fans with some of his actions over the years.

Overall, the positive impact of Smith, Wooden, Rupp and Knight far outshadowed the negagive for their universities.

None of this is very much more than heresay, and that movie was a joke, not to mention what Deford claimed has been denied by every Kentucky player who was in that locker room. You have to understand that many people outside of Kentucky simply didn't like Rupp, including the media. Only after he died, did these stories start to pop up. Many lies, half truths, or outright fabrications have been spewed about him ad nauseam over the years. It's both sickening and unfair.

Rupp was not a racist. He had a bad temper, and sometimes he spouted off, but bottom line: He wanted to win. He was the FIRST coach to recruit black players in the South (in late 1963), by the way. Also, he was not a blatant cheater or hypocrite like both Smith and Wooden were. Take your party of bullshit and hit the bricks elsewhere.

 

[JPScott]

Rupp may be misunderstood, but there is a lot of print, and a movie, that paints a much different picture of the Baron than you do. From an excerpt in the Louisville Courier:

'He said, ‘You've got to beat those coons,’ He turned to (center)Thad Jaracz. 'You go after that big coon.' . . . He talked that way all the time. . . A chill went through me. I was standing in the back of the room, and I looked around at the players. They all kind of ducked their heads. They were embarrassed. This was clearly the type of thing that went over the line." Frank Deford, Sports Illustrated, reporting on Coach Adolph Rupp’s halftime exhortations in the UK Wildcat’s locker room.

"Harry, that son of a bitch is ordering me to get some ******s in here. What am I going to do ? He's the boss." Harry Lancaster, long-time assistant to Rupp, in his book Adolph Rupp As I Knew Him (Lexington Productions, 1979), quoting Rupp on Dr. John Oswald, UK President.

“Once, I was on a flight with Rupp and sat with him in the first-class section. He had about six Kentucky bourbons in less than an hour and was about halfway to the wind. I told him that I was an attorney who represented some basketball players. Now, I had never met the man, and the first significant thing he said to me was, ‘The trouble with the ABA is that there are too many ****** boys in it now.’ I sat there just stunned. That just killed my image of Adolph Rupp the great coach. Maybe it was because he had too much to drink, but even so...” - Loose Balls by Terry Pluto, Simon & Schuster, 1990, pg. 241. '

Times were different back then, but I think it is disingenuous to paint Smith and Wooden in such negative light, as many posters are doing here. Knight may not have cheated, to my knowledge, but he surely embarrassed IU and the fans with some of his actions over the years.

Overall, the positive impact of Smith, Wooden, Rupp and Knight far outshadowed the negagive for their universities.

First of all, can you kindly point me to what Louisville Courier-Journal article you are referring to as the source of these excerpts?

Secondly, these are well known and have been brought up numerous times in the past few decades. They tell one side of a story, certainly, but by no means do they provide a complete picture.

I'm well aware of these and more. In fact I've listed them and discussed them in detail at the following webpage.

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/rupp.html

Of course my webpage attempts to present multiple sides of this complex subject, and in the process reveals a lot of positive things about Rupp which are little known and have been ignored by the mainstream media because it doesn't fit their simplistic narrative.

Unfortunately a few of Rupp's critics have used the page to pull out only selected negative excerpts, while steadfastly refusing to provide a link to where it came from. (Because by providing a link they would reveal the existence of a much more complex and nuanced subject which doesn't fit their agenda.)

For what it's worth my guess is that wherever you pulled the above excerpts , they were originally pulled from the above webpage at some point.

 

[The Ronin]

Dean Smith created the cheating whereas Wooden was simply an accomplice.

 

[preacherfan]

Overall, the positive impact of Smith, Wooden, Rupp and Knight far outshadowed the negagive for their universities.

Man, o man, for the most part they were basketball coaches. What exactly did Smith do that overshadows setting up a program to give out fake degrees and ultimately ruin the rep of the university? And, I have to wonder what Knight did that overshadowed an abusive style of leadership that belittled everyone around him?

 

[preacherfan]

For what it's worth my guess is that wherever you pulled the above excerpts , they were originally pulled from the above webpage at some point.

In my world, that is called plagiarism. I noticed he edited his post after you pointed that out.

 

[JPScott]

In my world, that is called plagiarism. I noticed he edited his post after you pointed that out.

I don't consider it plagiarism simply because the text is essentially a straight excerpts (fully referenced BTW) from various sources.

Someone can copy that all they want.

But it is telling IMO that when this happens critics of Rupp without exception fail to note where they found this collection of negative excerpts. (The reason being that if they did it would point to a website which clearly illustrates just how one-sides and narrow their viewpoints actually are.)

I am still curious where he got the idea this came from the Louisville Courier-Journal, or was that simply a smoke-screen?

 

[preacherfan]

I don't consider it plagiarism simply because the text is essentially a straight excerpts (fully referenced BTW) from various sources.

I am still curious where he got the idea this came from the Louisville Courier-Journal, or was that simply a smoke-screen?

This is the second time I've seen a rival fan debate you on a point and quote from your site without acknowledging the source and try to use it to counter your point.

It reminds me of the true story of a guy buying an appliance and the salesperson tries to get him
to buy a service contract. When he says that he doesn't think he needs one, the salesman tells him that Dave Ramsey says that anyone buying an appliance should always buy a service contract. The customer argues with the salesman who will not back down. Finally, the customer pulls out his wallet and shows his identification to the salesman. Of course, the customer is Dave Ramsey!

 

[JPScott]

This is the second time I've seen a rival fan debate you on a point and quote from your site without acknowledging the source and try to use it to counter your point.

Yes this happens from time to time. Common denominator is that these critics have never done any critical thinking, much less any actual research, on their own.

They mindlessly parrot whatever damaging information they've run across not only without knowing where it came from, but without recognizing that there's a lot more to the story and that it extends well beyond Rupp or UK.

And yet amazingly these are the very same people who assume they hold some sort of moral superiority over UK fans because of this issue!

 

[martinsm30]

Yes this happens from time to time. Common denominator is that these critics have never done any critical thinking, much less any actual research, on their own.

They mindlessly parrot whatever damaging information they've run across not only without knowing where it came from, but without recognizing that there's a lot more to the story and that it extends well beyond Rupp or UK.

And yet amazingly these are the very same people who assume they hold some sort of moral superiority over UK fans because of this issue!

Indiana fan's remind me of another great scene from Blazing Saddles:

 

[jimmygoiu]

Man, o man, for the most part they were basketball coaches. What exactly did Smith do that overshadows setting up a program to give out fake degrees and ultimately ruin the rep of the university? And, I have to wonder what Knight did that overshadowed an abusive style of leadership that belittled everyone around him?

What did Rupp do that overshadowed his antics of alleged racism and getting UK death penalty?

 

[preacherfan]

What did Rupp do that overshadowed his antics of alleged racism and getting UK death penalty?

You continue to spiral downward. My suggestion to you is take a basic research class. They usually cover stuff like "how to do your own real research," "plagiarism," and "critical thinking."

 

[jimmygoiu]

You continue to spiral downward. My suggestion to you is take a basic research class. They usually cover stuff like "how to do your own real research," "plagiarism," and "critical thinking."

Well you questioned Knight and Smith, and I questioned Rupp. What the heck is the accusations of plagiarism-I wasn't writing a paper, just repeating what I read from publications that I accessed from the internet. If you get on ask.com, you will have access to the same info as I. How would you suggest that I research this topic, other than with published info that can be accessed via the internet?

I did learn this- IU integrated in 1947, Wooden and Indiana State integrated in the same year of 1947. Dean Smith integrated in his 6th season with Charlie Scott in 1967. UK integrated in Rupp's 41st year as head coach with Thomas Payne in 1970-71 season , one year before Rupp retired. 41st year..

 

[Orange Soda King]

What did Rupp do that overshadowed his antics of alleged racism and getting UK death penalty?

He won a lot, which made other people mad and say bad and false things about him. And regarding death penalty, some of his players were involved in a point shaving scam. That actually is bad on those players, but you really think he was in on that?

Also, Rupp coached black players before he even coached at UK... So bringing up 1970-1971 is irrelevant. He recruited black players before then.

Maybe the real question is what did IU do after 1987?

 

[preacherfan]

Well you questioned Knight and Smith, and I questioned Rupp. What the heck is the accusations of plagiarism-I wasn't writing a paper, just repeating what I read from publications that I accessed from the internet. If you get on ask.com, you will have access to the same info as I. How would you suggest that I research this topic, other than with published info that can be accessed via the internet?

I did learn this- IU integrated in 1947, Wooden and Indiana State integrated in the same year of 1947. Dean Smith integrated in his 6th season with Charlie Scott in 1967. UK integrated in Rupp's 41st year as head coach with Thomas Payne in 1970-71 season , one year before Rupp retired. 41st year..

My question was in direct response to your statement that the coaches' good overshadowed the bad they did. I simply asked the obvious question about Smyth and Knight: What did they do to overshadow all the wrongs? It was a simple question that you avoided by changing the subject to Rupp.

You were quoting JPS (but crediting another source) to counter what JPS had said. Yet, you took his comments out of context. I taught some college classes for several years. You would have gotten a D- if you had pulled a stunt like that in one of my classes. Whether it was plagiarism or not isn't even relevant. It was sloppy and irresponsible.

Sloppy and irresponsible doesn't cut it on a UK board when someone wants to criticize one of our coaches. And, if we did the same thing about either Smith or Wooden, I would hope we would get called out for it.

 

[Alumni Gym]

What did Rupp do that overshadowed his antics of alleged racism and getting UK death penalty?

Rupp's "alleged" racism. That's great. Just goes to show your agenda. Ironic coming from a fan from the state which led in KKK membership for years. I also love it that you changed your above post after Jon handed you your ass. Further, neither UK nor Rupp were ever put on the "death penalty." That's bullshit, and a wives' tale. That rule didn't even exist in 1952. Further, if Kentucky had fought the NCAA in 1952, they would have gotten off scott-free, as the NCAA had no enforcement powers at that time.

Tell you what, keep on arguing with Jon Scott and myself over Kentucky Basketball history. Go on, take us on. Please!

 

[UKWildcats#8]

If not for Wooden's cheating UK would have the most NCAA Titles. That makes it easy for me. Wooden.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Calipari

Look at this loser...go upchuck yourself troll.

 

[BobCat6]

John Wooden ...and it's not close !!