UK vs. Duke 2016-2017 (player breakdown)

[Neue Regel]

I'm doubting it. And at the hyperbole of 1.3 assists. They'll have someone average 3 or more.

They already have that person. Allen led the team in assists last year and averaged 3.5 apg. He will attack off the bounce and dish a lot. Will be interesting to see how Jackson does, he is a very talented kid. You don't have to have a pure point to win it all. The Scheyer example was used but there are others. A Scotty Thurman three prevented a backcourt of Jeff Capel and Chris Collins from winning a title. (Both 2 guards and neither were exceptional players) Quin Snyder helmed two Final Four teams in 88 and 89 and he was considered the weak link on those squads.

I suspect Duke will probably be a little ahead of the curve early just by virtue of the experience with the four double figure scorers returning. It's a very fair point that Giles is a bit of an unknown right now in terms of effectiveness. At least early in the season as he works to return to form. The depth on the team will allow him to go at his own pace though.

My first post here since before the Bolden decision. (I wasn't about to get in that mess lol) Hope everyone has a fun and relaxing Memorial Day weekend.

 

[brdmn22]

Not 7 games...a best of 7 series.

 

[bucsrule8872]

UK legitimately 10 deep. Duke 9 deep.

Don't see 10 deep for UK.

I see both teams could go 9 deep.

Duke:
1. Allen
2. Giles
3. Tatum
4. Jackson
5. Jefferson
6. Jones
7. Kennard
8. Bolden
9. Jeter

UK:
1. Adebayo
2. Monk
3. Fox
4. Briscoe
5. Willis
6. Gabriel
7. Killeya-Jones
8. Humphries
9. Hawkins

Both coaches will give their top 7 most of the minutes. Numbers 8 and 9 will only see minutes when there's fatigue or foul trouble. 10-13 are going to sit the pine for sure.

At least that is how both coaches usually handle their benches.

 

[KDcats11]

Jason is right that not having a true PG won't stop them from being very good. However, it could prevent them from reaching their potential. K is a great coach and he's going to get them playing good basketball. Anyone doubting that is lying to themselves. But without a pure PG they may never hit all cylinders. At worst they have enough talent to play iso ball all game and still have a chance to win. But where I like our chances is with our defense. Our defensive ceiling is far greater than theirs. Combine that with the athleticism of our guards and I see no way they'll be able to keep us out of the lane. Duke will be one of those teams that will look unstoppable against overmatched opponents. But the second they face a team like us who can match their athleticism man for man, they'll know they're in a dogfight. I do think Duke will be far and away the best team to start to season, but give our offense time to work out the kinks as the season progresses and we'll have just as good a chance as them with our superior defense in March/April.

 

[Notorious23]

So who are the legit 10 for UK?I see maybe 8 legit

F Derek WIllis
G Dominique Hawkins
G Isaiah Briscoe
C Isaac Humphries
F Tai Wynyard
F Bam Adebayo
G De'Aaron Fox
G Malik Monk
F Wenyen Gabriel
F Sacha Killeya-Jones

solid 9- Wynward at 10 is stretching.........but until proven otherwise, I will count him

 

[dckala2]

somewhere, right now. tatum just took a shot.

 

[bucsrule8872]

They already have that person. Allen led the team in assists last year and averaged 3.5 apg. He will attack off the bounce and dish a lot. Will be interesting to see how Jackson does, he is a very talented kid. You don't have to have a pure point to win it all. The Scheyer example was used but there are others. A Scotty Thurman three prevented a backcourt of Jeff Capel and Chris Collins from winning a title. (Both 2 guards and neither were exceptional players) Quin Snyder helmed two Final Four teams in 88 and 89 and he was considered the weak link on those squads.

I suspect Duke will probably be a little ahead of the curve early just by virtue of the experience with the four double figure scorers returning. It's a very fair point that Giles is a bit of an unknown right now in terms of effectiveness. At least early in the season as he works to return to form. The depth on the team will allow him to go at his own pace though.

My first post here since before the Bolden decision. (I wasn't about to get in that mess lol) Hope everyone has a fun and relaxing Memorial Day weekend.

Grant Hill ran the point on offense most of the time in '94. Basically played point forward. If not for Hill, Duke did not have a prayer that year. Goes to show how one great player can pack a team.

 

[GermantownDawg]

All I know is I want to watch that game.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

They already have that person. Allen led the team in assists last year and averaged 3.5 apg. He will attack off the bounce and dish a lot. Will be interesting to see how Jackson does, he is a very talented kid. You don't have to have a pure point to win it all. The Scheyer example was used but there are others. A Scotty Thurman three prevented a backcourt of Jeff Capel and Chris Collins from winning a title. (Both 2 guards and neither were exceptional players) Quin Snyder helmed two Final Four teams in 88 and 89 and he was considered the weak link on those squads.

I suspect Duke will probably be a little ahead of the curve early just by virtue of the experience with the four double figure scorers returning. It's a very fair point that Giles is a bit of an unknown right now in terms of effectiveness. At least early in the season as he works to return to form. The depth on the team will allow him to go at his own pace though.

My first post here since before the Bolden decision. (I wasn't about to get in that mess lol) Hope everyone has a fun and relaxing Memorial Day weekend.

Just beat the hell out of UNC two or three times. I know opinions vary among Kentucky fans, but I've never wavered that I'd always rather see Duke humiliate the cheating frauds from Chapel Hill.

 

[Neue Regel]

Grant Hill ran the point on offense most of the time in '94. Basically played point forward. If not for Hill, Duke did not have a prayer that year. Goes to show how one great player can pack a team.

Yes indeed he was like a Swiss Army knife out there. He could do so many things. Also what really helped that squad was that Antonio Lang and Cherokee Parks made a big leap in productivity from the prior year. That gave them a really strong trio there. Collins and Capel had their moments but they were never going to be great players. That team was a surprise in getting to the title game. Arkansas was legit and UNC was everyone's pick in returning four starters from the 93 Championship team and then adding Stackhouse, Wallace and McInnis but they gagged on a BC in the second round.

 

[bucsrule8872]

Yes indeed he was like a Swiss Army knife out there. He could do so many things. Also what really helped that squad was that Antonio Lang and Cherokee Parks made a big leap in productivity from the prior year. That gave them a really strong trio there. Collins and Capel had their moments but they were never going to be great players. That team was a surprise in getting to the title game. Arkansas was legit and UNC was everyone's pick in returning four starters from the 93 Championship team and then adding Stackhouse, Wallace and McInnis but they gagged on a BC in the second round.

Nobody was going to beat the Hogs that season. They were killing teams by 30 just about every time out. I was surprised Duke kept it close. It should not have been. That Razorback team was incredible that year. Should have repeated the next year as well.

 

[lawrencekash]

Seems to me the unknown is how Briscoe improves and how Giles recovers. I really think Briscoe is the key player for us this year.

 

[Aike]

It's an issue of matchups.

Duke is talented enough that their lack of a true pg won't matter most of the time.

But how about against a team like UK, with a hyper quick, elite defensive backcourt?

We handled Duke easily last year precisely because they struggled handling the ball.

I know that was early, but we have almost certainly gotten better defensively, while their ball handling will conceivably be worse.

Unless foul trouble were to get us on our heels, I really like the pressure we would be able to exert vs. Duke's personnel.

 

[Neue Regel]

Nobody was going to beat the Hogs that season. They were killing teams by 30 just about every time out. I was surprised Duke kept it close. It should not have been. That Razorback team was incredible that year. Should have repeated the next year as well.

Agree 100%, Razorbacks were loaded that year. Early in the second half of the title game Duke took a (brief) 10 point lead but watching it you just had a clear sense of who the better team was. Arkansas had all the positions covered and had great depth.

It turned into quite a nail biter of a ball game. I was surprised when UCLA beat them for the title a year later especially with Tyus Edney being hurt for the Bruins. They handled the Hogs by 11 points surprisingly.

 

[trenupe2k2]

Don't see 10 deep for UK.

I see both teams could go 9 deep.

Duke:
1. Allen
2. Giles
3. Tatum
4. Jackson
5. Jefferson
6. Jones
7. Kennard
8. Bolden
9. Jeter

UK:
1. Adebayo
2. Monk
3. Fox
4. Briscoe
5. Willis
6. Gabriel
7. Killeya-Jones
8. Humphries
9. Hawkins

Both coaches will give their top 7 most of the minutes. Numbers 8 and 9 will only see minutes when there's fatigue or foul trouble. 10-13 are going to sit the pine for sure.

At least that is how both coaches usually handle their benches.

these two rosters are very identical

 

[trenupe2k2]

F Derek WIllis
G Dominique Hawkins
G Isaiah Briscoe
C Isaac Humphries
F Tai Wynyard
F Bam Adebayo
G De'Aaron Fox
G Malik Monk
F Wenyen Gabriel
F Sacha Killeya-Jones

solid 9- Wynward at 10 is stretching.........but until proven otherwise, I will count him

mulder or and wynyard can give us a even more deeper roster..they hve obi and vrankovich

 

[InSeekOfANational]

Allen v. Briscoe (Allen PUSHes Briscoe in the first minute and refs will call T on Briscoe for saying Allen pushed him)
Advantage - Allen

 

[Primedfor9]

Duke has better shooting and slightly better depth. We have much more athleticism, I think Duke losing Thornton could cost them in the tournament.

 

[RamHard]

Hate to say it the only team beats Duke is Duke.

 

[Kentucky fan 1989]

Seems most have already given the title to dUKe.

I sure as hell am not. Call me crazy but I think we're a matchup nightmare against Duke.

 

[Aike]

Hate to say it the only team beats Duke is Duke.

Dumb

 

[Quincey24]

This match up is not a push. Fox takes it because he's a pg where as Frank is a sg who has to play pg. with that said fox wouldn't eat his lunch and they have matched up before in camp and Frank actually got the best of him scoring wise while Fox has the better all around game (assists steals and rebounds plus the win). Frank isn't a pg but he gets buckets no matter who he is matched up with because he can score on all there levels


QUOTE="Aike, post: 4637412, member: 638"]Fox is a true pg, a defensive pest, and would eat Jackson's lunch. Jackson wants no part of running the point with Fox guarding him.[/QUOTE]

 

[Quincey24]

In most cases you would be right but they have a point here, I've watched and played with Frank for 4 years now (he works out with us during the summer when he isn't at camp or AAU). He is almost a mirror image of Grayson in he thinks shot first second and third. He's a elite scorer but rarely passes. I thought it was because he had to but even when he is in camps with other good scorers he still doesn't look to pass

I think people saying they don't have a "true" PG are just looking for an excuse to say they may not be as good as people think. They will be. It won't be an issue. They just won a title 6 years ago without a "true" point guard.

 

[Aike]

This match up is not a push. Fox takes it because he's a pg where as Frank is a sg who has to play pg. with that said fox wouldn't eat his lunch and they have matched up before in camp and Frank actually got the best of him scoring wise while Fox has the better all around game (assists steals and rebounds plus the win). Frank isn't a pg but he gets buckets no matter who he is matched up with because he can score on all there levels


QUOTE="Aike, post: 4637412, member: 638"]Fox is a true pg, a defensive pest, and would eat Jackson's lunch. Jackson wants no part of running the point with Fox guarding him.

[/QUOTE]

Don't care what happened in camp. Put Jackson running the point for Duke and I'll take my chances with Fox D-ing him up.

 

[Quincey24]

While this has been true you have to realize why K has done this, the why is tg fact they he didn't have good bigs when he had to go with a SF at PF. He didn't put Grant Hill nor Mike Dunlevy there because he had good bigs. Of course people tend to only remember recent history or they don't think about why a coach does what he does. K will now have good enough bugs to where he doesn't have to play a SF at the PF spot. Before Amile was injuried last season Ingram played SF and Winslow started out at SF until K realized Amile wasn't ready to be a contributor/ impact guy as a starter


QUOTE="bucsrule8872, post: 4638201, member: 3838"]I honestly expect that by tourney time Duke will look like this:

Starters
G Jackson- only thing close to a true PG they have.
G Allen- best perimeter player, NPOY candidate, he's a lock.
G Jones- experienced, plays defense and can shoot (best for spacing).
F Tatum- K loves playing mismatches with SF's at the 4 spot.
F Giles- best inside player.

Key Reserves
G Kennard- can come in for all three guards, gets 20+mpg.
F Jefferson- can come in for either forward spot, gets 20+mpg.
F Bolden- comes in at the 5 when they have foul trouble. Probably gets around 10mpg.

Bench
F Jeter- will get pushed out of the rotation by January (start of ACC play), he was recruited over (Bolden).
F DeLaurier- spot duty.

K's championship recipe almost always has a SF at the 4 spot. Tatum is not the best shooter, but is an incredible scorer. Moving him to the 4 means that K can have three shooters on the floor at all times (three out of Jackson, Allen, Jones, and Kennard). That is great for spacing.

Giles, Jefferson, and Bolden rotate inside giving them exceptional depth at the 4 and 5 spots. Jeter will ride the pine. If he couldn't beat Plumlee out for minutes, I doubt he can get minutes over two studs from a vastly superior recruiting class and a 5th year Senior.

I would be surprised if K goes away from his system just to appease his bigs. His last three titles have been won with SFs playing the "stretch 4" spot. His last three teams have had guys who would play the 3 on most teams at the 4 (Parker, Winslow, Ingram).[/QUOTE]

 

[Quincey24]

I don't think K will let him look to shoot first second and third and if he does then K will just start Matt Jones (prob do that anyway)


QUOTE="JasonSpear, post: 4643274, member: 1254"]And I think Coach K isn't gonna allow that team to have chemistry problems and whatever player needs to adjust his game will do so. If he tells someone to look to pass more and set people up, they'll do it. Offense isn't gonna be that team's problem even if I'm running point.[/QUOTE]

 

[Quincey24]

Also I agree offense won't be a issue. My complaint is more so when they get to the final four and need ball movement/fhaving someone to help create shots for others. They have so many weapons that that won't come up as a issue until that late into the season

QUOTE="JasonSpear, post: 4643274, member: 1254"]And I think Coach K isn't gonna allow that team to have chemistry problems and whatever player needs to adjust his game will do so. If he tells someone to look to pass more and set people up, they'll do it. Offense isn't gonna be that team's problem even if I'm running point.[/QUOTE]

 

[jockstrap_mcgee]

Duke's backcourt is a recipe for an early tourney flameout, but their frontcourt is strong enough to pull them through. I think they roll most teams but if we become the defensive buzzsaw we have the potential to be, particularly in the backcourt, we are the better team head to head.

 

[Quincey24]

The backcourt is more likely to be dominate than it is to be early flame out


QUOTE="jockstrap_mcgee, post: 4643430, member: 8152"]Duke's backcourt is a recipe for an early tourney flameout, but their frontcourt is strong enough to pull them through. I think they roll most teams but if we become the defensive buzzsaw we have the potential to be, particularly in the backcourt, we are the better team head to head.[/QUOTE]

 

[jockstrap_mcgee]

That's what they said about the Irving and Rivers teams as well.

 

[Quincey24]

Neither of those teams were close to as good as this one. That would be like someone saying to a UK fan "well what you are saying about this Fox team is what y'all said about the Noel N.I.T team before the season"

QUOTE="jockstrap_mcgee, post: 4643451, member: 8152"]That's what they said about the Irving and Rivers teams as well.[/QUOTE]

 

[jockstrap_mcgee]

Your first sentence is exactly what I said, smart one.

 

[Quincey24]

You never said the Austin rivers or Irving team were as good as his years Duke team will be. Neither of those teams had close to the overall talent this team has

QUOTE="jockstrap_mcgee, post: 4643475, member: 8152"]Your first sentence is exactly what I said, smart one.[/QUOTE]

 

[jockstrap_mcgee]

Read my first post in this thread.
And learn how to quote.

 

[Quincey24]

Of course you would. A Duke fan would pick the opposite and the same with a UNC fan. I 100% agree with you're opinion on who you'd give the nod too with the other things

As it stands right now I give the nod to Kentucky when it comes to overall athleticism, defense, and quickness. Duke has the advantage in outside shooting and slightly more quality depth.

If we played a best of 7 series, I would pick Kentucky 4 games to 2.

 

[Bkocats]

I think pg is going to be a problem for Duke this year.

I'll give us the nod on team chemistry.

With Allen and Tatum jacking up shots like a high school all star game, I think they are going to be suffer unity.

I don't think we should dismiss the thought that the whole Bolden situation may have created something as well - our freshmen coming in recruited him like crazy, and he blew them off. They'll have something to prove
With Briscoe coming back from the combine armed with what he learned, I anticipate him working his ass off this summer and being ready to lead this team this fall.
Humphries will get his chance to prove himself - and I honestly believe he'll at the least be serviceable. He showed some fire last year, if a few freshman mistakes. He won't want to repeat that
I bet we'll hear about a new "breakfast club" and it will start earlier than it has
The biggest thing is what you said here: team chemistry. The only Cal team who didn't have it to the nines was the 2013 team, and even then you knew those guys cared for each other. It just didn't translate to the court as well as it should.

 

[KDcats11]

Hate to say it the only team beats Duke is Duke.

Or Kentucky, or Villanova, or about 8 other teams.

 

[Quincey24]

Players don't take it as personal as friends. Unlike fans they continue to support friends during and after college

I don't think we should dismiss the thought that the whole Bolden situation may have created something as well - our freshmen coming in recruited him like crazy, and he blew them off. They'll have something to prove
With Briscoe coming back from the combine armed with what he learned, I anticipate him working his ass off this summer and being ready to lead this team this fall.
Humphries will get his chance to prove himself - and I honestly believe he'll at the least be serviceable. He showed some fire last year, if a few freshman mistakes. He won't want to repeat that
I bet we'll hear about a new "breakfast club" and it will start earlier than it has
The biggest thing is what you said here: team chemistry. The only Cal team who didn't have it to the nines was the 2013 team, and even then you knew those guys cared for each other. It just didn't translate to the court as well as it should.

 

[Blueisbest]

I said best of 7. 4 games to 2 is quite possible. Maybe reading comprehension is not your strong subject.

 

[Untouchables22]

I'm surprised no one in the thread has pointed out that Allen is going to dominate the ball next season. He not Jackson will be the player bringing the ball up the court and initiating the offense more often then not. Jackson will guard the PG's but Allen will be the primary ball handler on Offense.

Otherwise it will be a great contrast of styles. Duke will be an offensive juggernaut with average to below average defense and UK will a defensive stalwart but have some offensive issues from time to time.